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Dusty · 07-09-2005, 02:21 PM

^^I think it definitely is a valid argument, were TML to make it. Have you ever heard of Salman Rushdie? In his novel The Satanic Verses, he directly says "I have lost my faith in Islam" (paraphrase of course, Rushdie is rather longwinded). Consequently, a fatwa was issued against him by Iran, calling on all faithful Muslims to assassinate the writer. The threat was so real that Rushdie was forced to go underground--in London. That means that Muslims even in Western nations still face the same oppression from Islamic fundamentalism, and it's not confined to the Middle East. Granted, that's for a high(er)-profile figure, but that goes both ways; if extremists are able to defy or threaten to defy the protection offered by a nation as developed as Britain (viewed in the recent attacks), then the control they extend from their theocracies over the rest of the Islamic diaspora is even more palpable to the average Muslim.

I think your argument is partially flawed in the implicit connection between the (Catholic) church from the Middle Ages and the one existing today. There have been so many policy changes, many of which the late Pope presided over, that (though the philosophies established by St. Thomas Aquinas and others remain) it negates the implication that, if Islam is in fact not a true religion for Card's reasons, neither is Catholicism.

I of course can't speak on behalf of other religions, only hobble along and pretend I know what you mean. I'm not actually a Christian either, so I might be completely wrong.

(But when you say Jewish holy war, do you refer to Zionism?)

You seem to be following a bit of Positivism here in the implication that developed nations see an inevitable decay in the ranks of the faithful. I would suggest the U.S. as a counterexample, as some of the really, really creepily (to my Irish-Catholic sensibilities) zealous Protestant sects, like Baptist and Pentecostal, are swelling like leeches. However, it's true that this is mostly due to the massive influx of Central-to-South American immigrants; that is, Catholics coming from undeveloped countries to one where Catholicism itself is already on the wane, so that might abate in the next generation.

I think it's kind of funny, actually. Catholicism is declining in American because middle-class whites associate it too much with the worldwide church (in a word, condoms--we want em), and it's declining because Hispanic immigrants think it's strayed too far from the worldwide church.

Going with TML's more recent clarification, though, I've got to say no.

[ July 09, 2005, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Dusty ]

07-09-2005, 02:21 PM	#4
Dusty Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Under your bed Posts: 205 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Points: 3,020.00 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 3,520.00 Donate	^^I think it definitely is a valid argument, were TML to make it. Have you ever heard of Salman Rushdie? In his novel The Satanic Verses, he directly says "I have lost my faith in Islam" (paraphrase of course, Rushdie is rather longwinded). Consequently, a fatwa was issued against him by Iran, calling on all faithful Muslims to assassinate the writer. The threat was so real that Rushdie was forced to go underground--in London. That means that Muslims even in Western nations still face the same oppression from Islamic fundamentalism, and it's not confined to the Middle East. Granted, that's for a high(er)-profile figure, but that goes both ways; if extremists are able to defy or threaten to defy the protection offered by a nation as developed as Britain (viewed in the recent attacks), then the control they extend from their theocracies over the rest of the Islamic diaspora is even more palpable to the average Muslim. I think your argument is partially flawed in the implicit connection between the (Catholic) church from the Middle Ages and the one existing today. There have been so many policy changes, many of which the late Pope presided over, that (though the philosophies established by St. Thomas Aquinas and others remain) it negates the implication that, if Islam is in fact not a true religion for Card's reasons, neither is Catholicism. I of course can't speak on behalf of other religions, only hobble along and pretend I know what you mean. I'm not actually a Christian either, so I might be completely wrong. (But when you say Jewish holy war, do you refer to Zionism?) You seem to be following a bit of Positivism here in the implication that developed nations see an inevitable decay in the ranks of the faithful. I would suggest the U.S. as a counterexample, as some of the really, really creepily (to my Irish-Catholic sensibilities) zealous Protestant sects, like Baptist and Pentecostal, are swelling like leeches. However, it's true that this is mostly due to the massive influx of Central-to-South American immigrants; that is, Catholics coming from undeveloped countries to one where Catholicism itself is already on the wane, so that might abate in the next generation. I think it's kind of funny, actually. Catholicism is declining in American because middle-class whites associate it too much with the worldwide church (in a word, condoms--we want em), and it's declining because Hispanic immigrants think it's strayed too far from the worldwide church. Going with TML's more recent clarification, though, I've got to say no. [ July 09, 2005, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: Dusty ]