Playing Warcraft III.

[Jesus]

It feels odd to dig it out and play it after you finish Northrend on WoW. I'm like yeah that's Rexxar and his pet Misha. I saw them in Blade's Edge Mountains in the Outlands. Then when I play Warcraft III again I just get nostalgic and wonder if they originally planned for such an elaborate universe for an MMORPG when they released this game. There is a lot of stuff left to be heard in WoW such as the original place of the goblins, the Maelstrom, Emerald Dream, the Pandarans, etc.

[FXGlobal]

It feels odd to play it after never having really played any game of the same type, and confined your own RTS life to C&C.

[Cosmonautical]

Well, it's not like War3 is the sole title in the series. 2 and 1 are equally relevant. Considering the first game, it's obvious that the title wasn't a priority or concept to them when they kicked off the franchise - I'm pretty certain that 1 is just evidence that they wanted to make a game in the RTS genre, and it really took off when they made 2.

Personally, I think Starcraft would adapt better to an MMORPG setting, at least from the time WoW was released. WoW did well enough, but the rough geometric angles present in the scaled-down models of the MMORPG genre of that time would better lend itself to sci-fi futurism. High-fantasy has always been just that extra bit more successful than sci-fi, though, and I think they probably wanted to build on the esteem of War3's then-recent success. Starcraft is well-remembered, but they'd had 2 more highly relevant releases since SC.

[Lurch1982]

Originally Posted by Retro Metroid Literature

Well, it's not like War3 is the sole title in the series. 2 and 1 are equally relevant. Considering the first game, it's obvious that the title wasn't a priority or concept to them when they kicked off the franchise - I'm pretty certain that 1 is just evidence that they wanted to make a game in the RTS genre, and it really took off when they made 2.

Probably because 1 was a result of a collapsed deal to make an RTS of Warhammer. Little known fact, but interesting (which is why the two are close enough).

Personally, I think Starcraft would adapt better to an MMORPG setting, at least from the time WoW was released. WoW did well enough, but the rough geometric angles present in the scaled-down models of the MMORPG genre of that time would better lend itself to sci-fi futurism. High-fantasy has always been just that extra bit more successful than sci-fi, though, and I think they probably wanted to build on the esteem of War3's then-recent success. Starcraft is well-remembered, but they'd had 2 more highly relevant releases since SC.

Starcraft in an MMO is problematic. Its easier to deal with one planet than multiple, and that isn't even getting into things like "how would you make the Zerg playable?" or "how would you handle combat? You're also getting into the issues of "there's never even been a remotely successful Sci-Fi MMO," which is sad considering two "Can't fail" properties were converted into MMOs (Matrix and Star Wars).

[Cosmonautical]

I can really only think of a single time that the Matrix didn't fail. I know you're speaking profit-wise, though.

I agree that a multi-planet system is hard to tackle. I'd plan different planets to be handled as sequels or expansions, probably. I was concerned with accomplishing a solid gaming environment, though, not so much to do with the likelihood of commercial success. Personally, I think manmade environments are easier to tackle in gaming overall. The chaos of nature is hard to recreate realistically, game designers always manage to make their environs feel too contrived. Considering man-made areas are meant to be contrived, my logic is a no-brainer.

Sales-wise, though, I definitely don't see it performing as well as traditional fantasy.

[Lurch1982]

Originally Posted by Retro Metroid Literature

I can really only think of a single time that the Matrix didn't fail. I know you're speaking profit-wise, though.

I basically agree with you on it, the Matrix got worse with each movie (the original is amazing, second one is ok, third one is pretty stupid) and the game tie-ins have been subpar at best.

The Matrix Online, however, was really ambitious and SHOULD have pushed through a mainstream sci-fi title. The universe was open enough (and not bogged down with 20+ years of buildup like Star Wars) to allow them to do pretty much anything, and the fact that they were actually extending the movie stories through it was pretty cool. Problem is it didn't get off on the right foot, they borked the first few live events, and the game completely tanked out of the gate.

Star Wars Galaxies was another "can't miss" product that totally missed, and its entirely due to the simple fact that everyone wants to be a Jedi. They originally made it damn near impossible to become one, then they tarded it up to appeal to the lowest common denominator, which ruined the game (this is supposed to take place around Episode IV, and by the end they have far too many Jedis running around).

I agree that a multi-planet system is hard to tackle. I'd plan different planets to be handled as sequels or expansions, probably. I was concerned with accomplishing a solid gaming environment, though, not so much to do with the likelihood of commercial success. Personally, I think manmade environments are easier to tackle in gaming overall. The chaos of nature is hard to recreate realistically, game designers always manage to make their environs feel too contrived. Considering man-made areas are meant to be contrived, my logic is a no-brainer.

I think the problem is that while a Starcraft/space/sci-fi MMO would certainly look better, you still have to get around the gameplay issues. Could you really install a WoW/Diablo style combat system with a universe that uses guns? You could go the action-route, similar to Planetside (think Battlefield 1942 on a massive scale). I think that could work, but you wouldn't get the bottle-pissing WoW addicts and you would have to convince the FPS junkies that they should pay monthly for a gamestyle that they can do for free online elsewhere (especially if you launch too close to a battlefield sequel).

EveOnline is an interesting approach. Not mainstream at all, but the depth is insanely interesting. I think my personal favorite EO story is a faction sending someone into a rival faction undercover for over a year until they were able to embezzle all of their money and tech.

I think some of the cooler ideas for space MMOs were basically aborted. I beta-tested a Battletech MMO for EA about a decade ago (Multiplayer BattleTech 3025 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). The premise was pretty cool (pick a faction, fight in matches, and the results shift the territory maps. Earn money and buy new mechs ala Mech whatever: Mercenaries. It wasn't fleshed out as much as it could have been (More players instead of a 4v4 cap, infantry/armor and air/space support, in-game squad/guild/clan/whatever support, etc), and it was way too twitch-based to last long (The wiki article says matches were as short as 30 seconds, which is basically dead on).

Star Trek is on the horizon, and that should be a "can't fail" property. It will though, since absolutely nobody wants to be Redshirt Ensign #5 and you can't have 10,000 Captain Kirks and 9000 Enterprises.

As per profits though, MMOs are akin throwing all of your money and possessions on one number on a roulette wheel. There's only been ONE truly successful game in the history of the genre (WoW) and a handful of "decent" performing entries (Ultima Online, Everquest). Outside of those, everything else is either extremely niche (Eve) or stillborn failure.
Off the top of my head of some failures: Tabula Rasa, Age of Conan, Warhammer, D&D Online (another CANT FAIL), Lord of the Rings Online (CANT FAIL), Ragnarok Online, WW2 Online, FF Online (Can't fail), Phantasy Star Online, Age of Heros/Villains, Anarchy Online, Asheron's Call, Dark Age of Camelot, Fury, Star Wars Galaxies, Planetside, The Matrix Online.

That's the problem. One clearcut success, maybe three moderate success stories, and a steaming pile of failure. These things are moneypits for developers who see the WoW profits and want a slice. What they get is about 20K people, if that, plunking down 50 bucks for a trial that they never extend. Blizzard is successful with WoW because they basically took the best things from UO and EQ, streamlined it, and made it better and a little more userfriendly (IMO), so they poached the UO and EQ players in the initial year before it became some sort of cultural phenomenon. It also helped that Blizz essentially answered to nobody but themselves, and basically put Diablo III, Warcraft IV, and Starcraft II on a very lengthy hiatus to dedicate everything to the game and universe. Also doesn't hurt that they basically give away what EQ would charge for in their major patches.

[Cosmonautical]

I've never really thought of MMORPG or MMO in general as a successful or logical business model, considering all of the failures. People honestly don't want to pay a fee, and you can't really give a costly production away just for advertising income.

That Battletech game sounds like it could've been pretty slick. I heard there was another game designed by one of the creators of the Ultima series that was similar to UO and is or was pretty big in east Asia (something like 6 or 7 mil players). Don't remember the name, but I'm sure you've heard of it.

The problems with translating SC gameplay to a true 3D single-player perspective are definitely an issue. I think they could've created a few more character types to adapt it better, but in the long run it'd probably end up being a very over-the-shoulder/RE4 styled game.

The Realm (Sierra's entry, from the later nineties) was probably the biggest let-down of the genre, in my experience. Way too early, and all the wrong approach. Then again, after playing Everquest I have to say EQ's gameplay was ridiculously limited compared to Ultima's absurd range of possibilities. It didn't help that my first experience with EQ included a glitched out hammerhead shark that was mysteriously levitating in place above the rocky coastline.

[Jesus]

Everquest was admittedly a sloppy MMO and to this day still remains pretty bad. As far as lore goes, I think it's okay in the fact that you can throw anything you want in there and it would fit in perfectly.