Team Fortress 2 Discussion - Page 3

heh · 05-29-2009, 03:31 PM

how about not having to unlock stuff in a multiplayer online game at all

Prince Toad · 05-29-2009, 06:50 PM

YES. Today's update puts back milestones as ways of unlocking items. Yes yes yes.

^I dunno, I like having to do something to earn them. It's not really that hard unless you suck, in which case you can go to an achievement server. And you feel proud when you finally unlock that Ubersaw or Atomic Punch (even though the drink is pretty useless).

(Side note: the update also seems to have broken TF2. But I'm sure they'll patch it up within a day or so. It's Valve.)

Kargath · 05-29-2009, 08:58 PM

Excellent.
Also, Bonk is basically designed purely for CTF maps and sneak-capping behind defences on CP maps.

Rainbow Dash · 05-29-2009, 09:13 PM

Bonk is designed for 24/7 2fort turtle fests

Jace VK · 05-30-2009, 10:54 PM

The flare gun is still the best unlockable weapon.

I'm sad because the scout is my favorite, and he got pretty disappointing unlocks.

Prince Toad · 05-31-2009, 12:10 PM

The flare gun's okay, but the shotgun is better. I know it can be good for axtinguishing dudes but you still have to get up to them before they realize what's happening. And if you can do that you could have probably done it with the flamethrower. It's so frustrating to watch guys just run away because you can't do anything but shoot flares at them. I got sick of that happening so I just switched back to the shotgun.

Best unlock in my opinion is probably the ubersaw. The blutsauger, Sandman, and Cloak and Dagger are close. None is completely game-changing (though the Sandman heavily affects play style) but the bonuses those provide are enormous compared to the normal weapons.

I dunno. Scout's my favorite class too and I'm pretty happy with the Force-A-Nature and the Sandman. As I said, Bonk is kinda crappy in most situations, but two out of three useful unlocks is more or less par. The only class whose unlocks I use all of is the medic, when I feel like busting out the kritzkrieg. Which isn't that often because it doesn't really compare to the medigun.

But yeah, the Force-A-Nature kind of makes up for the lack of double jump. And double jumping isn't actually THAT important when you think about it. It can get you some places conveniently but it doesn't help you get or avoid kills very often. The blowback is wonderful for getting pyros/heavies out of your face long enough for you to run away/around a corner, since you're not about to kill them up close/at all. My main issue with it is that when you sneak up behind someone you can't kill them in one magazine like you can with the scattergun. But you can finish off most classes with the bat or pistol and you can send the others, except I guess heavies, running for health while you make your escape.

As for the Sandman, the uber-stopping ability is huge. Also it gives you a way to dodge heavies. I think it's well worth it.

Rainbow Dash · 05-31-2009, 12:16 PM

hey look I made a tier list

Best:
ubersaw
blutsager
axtinguisher
KGB

Pretty damn good:
huntsman
ambassador
natascha
jarate
dead ringer
cloak and dagger

OK:
kritzkrieg
sandvich
sandman

Less than stellar:
backburner
flare gun
bonk

Awful:
razorback
force-a-nature

Kargath · 06-01-2009, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince Toad

Really? I'd think the scattergun would be better for that. Even with the extra bullets per shot the 2 ammo is a killer for Force-A-Nature firepower. Honestly I'm not sure what the point of the more/weaker bullets is. Just having the different reload with the blowback/kickback effect would have been fine.

I did finally get a Cloak and Dagger yesterday. 1 new item down, 5 to go. Also some of the new achievements are broken. I got Enemy at the Gates by killing someone before the round started, and I got You Only Shiv Thrice by... I don't even know. It certainly wasn't by killing 3 enemies in 10 seconds.

Assuming a total hit by every bullet during a Kritz uber, the Scattergun does more (4.something) damage, but the sheer speed of the FAN combined with a switch to pistol allows your patient to finish off anything within a couple of seconds. Then your patient can take a second to reload before moving onto the next victim.
Crit pistol does heaps of damage, too.

Rainbow Dash · 06-01-2009, 10:28 AM

scattergun is still better, you don't have to chase after your target after each shot

Prince Toad · 06-01-2009, 05:29 PM

I can see what you're saying, Kargath. The only thing is that if you miss your two shots with the FAN-- and Scouts have to move around so much that you're bound to miss sometimes-- you have to get through that painful reload. The pistol does help make up for it though. (Also, I've never heard an ubered player referred to as a "patient" before.

)

Chunky, you obviously don't play a lot of Scout. Especially considering your list. The Force-A-Nature and the Sandman are worse than Natascha? You're joking, right? The scattergun is a little better for pure killing, but the FAN has so much more strategic use. It actually helps you stay alive, and it preserves the second jump if you use the Sandman.

Other than that your list isn't bad. There are a few little problems though, for example you overrated the KGB and the Dead Ringer. But it's decent on the whole.

heh · 06-01-2009, 05:51 PM

you obviously don't play scout if you think the sandman is worth your double jump, or if anything is worth your doublejump

Rainbow Dash · 06-01-2009, 05:52 PM

I play scout a lot, FaN is useless. scattergun is better in anything except pushing people off of points. Sandman is worthless because it got nerfed a whole bunch, takes away your double jump, and the FaN's jump is not a replacement for the double jump!

also how is KGB overrated, you'd be stupid to use the fists over the KGB (all weapons in that category are pretty much straight upgrades)

LinkManDX · 06-01-2009, 09:34 PM

Force-a-nature is good when you're on a map where you can isolate enemies. The two shots + the knockback deal more damage, and when returning fire can be assumed to come from one pot, you're good for the reload time.

Sandman is useless, double jump is too useful for doing what scout does best (Annoy the crap out of people).

Rainbow Dash · 06-01-2009, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LinkManDX

Force-a-nature is good when you're on a map where you can isolate enemies.

enemies are almost never isolated

Kargath · 06-02-2009, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRHPs Greatest Hits

you obviously don't play scout if you think the sandman is worth your double jump, or if anything is worth your doublejump

Pre-nerf, the Sandman was worth your ability to jump at all, it was that powerful. A Scout should never be able to one-shot an overhealed Heavy.

Prince Toad · 06-02-2009, 09:19 AM

Yes, obviously I don't play Scout. Even though I just said it's my favorite class. And I have more time spent with it than any other.

KGB is a straight upgrade but it's not that good. How often do you punch people as a heavy? I've seen a really good heavy use it at the start of an uber to get crits, but that guy was incredible and even then the odds that he happened to get a kill with one shot weren't that good.

FAN's double jump is a little harder to use, but it serves well enough as a replacement. The big problem with it is that it makes noise, so it's harder to sneak up on people. However it does have one minor advantage-- if you're falling fast enough you can aim at a certain angle and get a little horizontal speed boost.

Dude, the whole point of Scout is to isolate enemies. If you run into two enemies as a Scout you're probably going to get killed, unless they're Snipers or Spies.

Actually the Sandman is the only thing that makes the Scout useful in situations other than finding an isolated enemy. You can hit a ball at a group and incapacitate one of them, which generally helps your team. It also has uber-stopping potential-- if you hit the medic at enough distance you can even give your team enough time to kill the ubered player.

Rainbow Dash · 06-02-2009, 10:01 AM

the FaN's jump kills too much of your first jump's momentum to be useful, so it would only really work in the situation you described I guess

no scout worth his salt uses the FaN, the 2 ammo clip size and less damage and knockback are just too much of a downgrade for it to be worth it

if they added a doom supershotgun two bullets at once feature that did like 1.5x damage or something maybe I'd use it

heh · 06-02-2009, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kargath

Pre-nerf, the Sandman was worth your ability to jump at all, it was that powerful. A Scout should never be able to one-shot an overhealed Heavy.

oh boy i can stun an overhealed heavy! as opposed to killing the medic and having my team steamroll him i used to do! only now its nerfed so the rest of the enemy team shot me because I couldn't avoid it because I can't doublejump and the heavy survived because he was only taking half damage and still getting healed by the medic and now the scout is dead

Prince Toad · 06-02-2009, 02:44 PM

You can still kill the medic. Use the bat if you can't do it with the FAN, does the same damage as the regular bat. And you can still dodge without double jumping. It doesn't make that much of a difference.

How is the knockback a downgrade? Strikes me as a massive upgrade. Like I said, now pyros and heavies don't mean instant death.

heh · 06-02-2009, 03:04 PM

the knockback isn't a downgrade, but anyone who thinks its worth 2/3 of a clip and reaiming your shots is p. dumb.

also i wasn't talking about the fan, i was talking about the sandman. while you can dodge without your double jump, your only dodging as well as a medic. the double jump is like the crux of the scout's massive mobility and getting behind the heavy is going to be alot harder without it.

05-29-2009, 06:50 PM	#42
Prince Toad Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rookery Gender: Posts: 11,720 Thanks: 50 Thanked 65 Times in 56 Posts	YES. Today's update puts back milestones as ways of unlocking items. Yes yes yes. ^I dunno, I like having to do something to earn them. It's not really that hard unless you suck, in which case you can go to an achievement server. And you feel proud when you finally unlock that Ubersaw or Atomic Punch (even though the drink is pretty useless). (Side note: the update also seems to have broken TF2. But I'm sure they'll patch it up within a day or so. It's Valve.) Last edited by Prince Toad; 05-29-2009 at 06:56 PM.

06-01-2009, 05:29 PM	#50
Prince Toad Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rookery Gender: Posts: 11,720 Thanks: 50 Thanked 65 Times in 56 Posts	I can see what you're saying, Kargath. The only thing is that if you miss your two shots with the FAN-- and Scouts have to move around so much that you're bound to miss sometimes-- you have to get through that painful reload. The pistol does help make up for it though. (Also, I've never heard an ubered player referred to as a "patient" before. ) Chunky, you obviously don't play a lot of Scout. Especially considering your list. The Force-A-Nature and the Sandman are worse than Natascha? You're joking, right? The scattergun is a little better for pure killing, but the FAN has so much more strategic use. It actually helps you stay alive, and it preserves the second jump if you use the Sandman. Other than that your list isn't bad. There are a few little problems though, for example you overrated the KGB and the Dead Ringer. But it's decent on the whole. Last edited by Prince Toad; 06-01-2009 at 05:36 PM.

05-29-2009, 03:31 PM	#41
heh Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: lo-ca-tion; Noun- 1. a place or situation occupied: That house is in a fine location Gender: Posts: 9,849 Thanks: 710 Thanked 955 Times in 628 Posts	how about not having to unlock stuff in a multiplayer online game at all

05-29-2009, 08:58 PM	#43
Kargath et in Arcadia ego Join Date: Jul 2001 Gender: Posts: 8,334 Thanks: 1,226 Thanked 780 Times in 488 Posts	Excellent. Also, Bonk is basically designed purely for CTF maps and sneak-capping behind defences on CP maps.

05-29-2009, 09:13 PM	#44
Rainbow Dash been dreamin', i've been waitin' Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: a bomb-ass cloud house bachelorette pad Gender: Posts: 24,400 Thanks: 173 Thanked 1,179 Times in 716 Posts	Bonk is designed for 24/7 2fort turtle fests

05-30-2009, 10:54 PM	#45
Jace VK Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Australia Gender: Posts: 1,618 Thanks: 91 Thanked 34 Times in 29 Posts Blog Entries: 1	The flare gun is still the best unlockable weapon. I'm sad because the scout is my favorite, and he got pretty disappointing unlocks.

05-31-2009, 12:10 PM	#46
Prince Toad Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rookery Gender: Posts: 11,720 Thanks: 50 Thanked 65 Times in 56 Posts	The flare gun's okay, but the shotgun is better. I know it can be good for axtinguishing dudes but you still have to get up to them before they realize what's happening. And if you can do that you could have probably done it with the flamethrower. It's so frustrating to watch guys just run away because you can't do anything but shoot flares at them. I got sick of that happening so I just switched back to the shotgun. Best unlock in my opinion is probably the ubersaw. The blutsauger, Sandman, and Cloak and Dagger are close. None is completely game-changing (though the Sandman heavily affects play style) but the bonuses those provide are enormous compared to the normal weapons. I dunno. Scout's my favorite class too and I'm pretty happy with the Force-A-Nature and the Sandman. As I said, Bonk is kinda crappy in most situations, but two out of three useful unlocks is more or less par. The only class whose unlocks I use all of is the medic, when I feel like busting out the kritzkrieg. Which isn't that often because it doesn't really compare to the medigun. But yeah, the Force-A-Nature kind of makes up for the lack of double jump. And double jumping isn't actually THAT important when you think about it. It can get you some places conveniently but it doesn't help you get or avoid kills very often. The blowback is wonderful for getting pyros/heavies out of your face long enough for you to run away/around a corner, since you're not about to kill them up close/at all. My main issue with it is that when you sneak up behind someone you can't kill them in one magazine like you can with the scattergun. But you can finish off most classes with the bat or pistol and you can send the others, except I guess heavies, running for health while you make your escape. As for the Sandman, the uber-stopping ability is huge. Also it gives you a way to dodge heavies. I think it's well worth it.

05-31-2009, 12:16 PM	#47
Rainbow Dash been dreamin', i've been waitin' Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: a bomb-ass cloud house bachelorette pad Gender: Posts: 24,400 Thanks: 173 Thanked 1,179 Times in 716 Posts	hey look I made a tier list Best: ubersaw blutsager axtinguisher KGB Pretty damn good: huntsman ambassador natascha jarate dead ringer cloak and dagger OK: kritzkrieg sandvich sandman Less than stellar: backburner flare gun bonk Awful: razorback force-a-nature

06-01-2009, 10:28 AM	#49
Rainbow Dash been dreamin', i've been waitin' Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: a bomb-ass cloud house bachelorette pad Gender: Posts: 24,400 Thanks: 173 Thanked 1,179 Times in 716 Posts	scattergun is still better, you don't have to chase after your target after each shot

06-01-2009, 05:51 PM	#51
heh Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: lo-ca-tion; Noun- 1. a place or situation occupied: That house is in a fine location Gender: Posts: 9,849 Thanks: 710 Thanked 955 Times in 628 Posts	you obviously don't play scout if you think the sandman is worth your double jump, or if anything is worth your doublejump

06-01-2009, 05:52 PM	#52
Rainbow Dash been dreamin', i've been waitin' Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: a bomb-ass cloud house bachelorette pad Gender: Posts: 24,400 Thanks: 173 Thanked 1,179 Times in 716 Posts	I play scout a lot, FaN is useless. scattergun is better in anything except pushing people off of points. Sandman is worthless because it got nerfed a whole bunch, takes away your double jump, and the FaN's jump is not a replacement for the double jump! also how is KGB overrated, you'd be stupid to use the fists over the KGB (all weapons in that category are pretty much straight upgrades)

06-01-2009, 09:34 PM	#53
LinkManDX Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Because political usernames ftw Gender: Posts: 3,582 Thanks: 297 Thanked 266 Times in 156 Posts	Force-a-nature is good when you're on a map where you can isolate enemies. The two shots + the knockback deal more damage, and when returning fire can be assumed to come from one pot, you're good for the reload time. Sandman is useless, double jump is too useful for doing what scout does best (Annoy the crap out of people).

06-02-2009, 09:19 AM	#56
Prince Toad Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rookery Gender: Posts: 11,720 Thanks: 50 Thanked 65 Times in 56 Posts	Yes, obviously I don't play Scout. Even though I just said it's my favorite class. And I have more time spent with it than any other. KGB is a straight upgrade but it's not that good. How often do you punch people as a heavy? I've seen a really good heavy use it at the start of an uber to get crits, but that guy was incredible and even then the odds that he happened to get a kill with one shot weren't that good. FAN's double jump is a little harder to use, but it serves well enough as a replacement. The big problem with it is that it makes noise, so it's harder to sneak up on people. However it does have one minor advantage-- if you're falling fast enough you can aim at a certain angle and get a little horizontal speed boost. Dude, the whole point of Scout is to isolate enemies. If you run into two enemies as a Scout you're probably going to get killed, unless they're Snipers or Spies. Actually the Sandman is the only thing that makes the Scout useful in situations other than finding an isolated enemy. You can hit a ball at a group and incapacitate one of them, which generally helps your team. It also has uber-stopping potential-- if you hit the medic at enough distance you can even give your team enough time to kill the ubered player.

06-02-2009, 10:01 AM	#57
Rainbow Dash been dreamin', i've been waitin' Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: a bomb-ass cloud house bachelorette pad Gender: Posts: 24,400 Thanks: 173 Thanked 1,179 Times in 716 Posts	the FaN's jump kills too much of your first jump's momentum to be useful, so it would only really work in the situation you described I guess no scout worth his salt uses the FaN, the 2 ammo clip size and less damage and knockback are just too much of a downgrade for it to be worth it if they added a doom supershotgun two bullets at once feature that did like 1.5x damage or something maybe I'd use it

06-02-2009, 02:44 PM	#59
Prince Toad Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rookery Gender: Posts: 11,720 Thanks: 50 Thanked 65 Times in 56 Posts	You can still kill the medic. Use the bat if you can't do it with the FAN, does the same damage as the regular bat. And you can still dodge without double jumping. It doesn't make that much of a difference. How is the knockback a downgrade? Strikes me as a massive upgrade. Like I said, now pyros and heavies don't mean instant death.

06-02-2009, 03:04 PM	#60
heh Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: lo-ca-tion; Noun- 1. a place or situation occupied: That house is in a fine location Gender: Posts: 9,849 Thanks: 710 Thanked 955 Times in 628 Posts	the knockback isn't a downgrade, but anyone who thinks its worth 2/3 of a clip and reaiming your shots is p. dumb. also i wasn't talking about the fan, i was talking about the sandman. while you can dodge without your double jump, your only dodging as well as a medic. the double jump is like the crux of the scout's massive mobility and getting behind the heavy is going to be alot harder without it.