TF2 Classless Update

LinkManDX · 08-13-2009, 06:56 PM

Since we have several TF2 players here, I thought a thread should be started.

For a full list of changes, go to Team Fortress 2 - Classless Update.

I know a bunch of other changes are coming down the pipe based on the competitive community's suggestions as well as the ones done to the Sandman and FaN.

I'm interested in everyone's thoughts on the Sandman. The only new features for the FaN are the knockback based on health/weight and the correct self-knockback, which are good, but really don't change the weapon much.

The Sandman, however, has been changed fundamentally.

1. You can't stun ubers.
2. You lose 30 health.
3. Damage nerf has been changed from 25% to 50%.
4. You get the doublejump.

FaN scouts will be more overpowered, while scattergun scouts won't use it because they need health to get out of battles.

What do you think?

Sim Kid · 08-13-2009, 10:00 PM

Boy. I honestly didn't find the Sandman to be whateveryone says it was but now I can only imagine the "they nerfed it so it sucks"-mentality of a class-based game showing up after this.

Metal Man · 08-14-2009, 12:02 AM

Sounds like it'll make Scouts much less irritating to me (I encounter them with the cheeze they used to have as a Pyro.)

Kargath · 08-14-2009, 06:02 AM

The hidden update pages are interesting.
Search in the page source files.

Rainbow Dash · 08-14-2009, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kargath

The hidden update pages are interesting.
Search in the page source files.

Can't find anything.

Please tell me how.

Sim Kid · 08-14-2009, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metal Man

Sounds like it'll make Scouts much less irritating to me (I encounter them with the cheeze they used to have as a Pyro.)

I'd rather they remove the "BOINK!" voice clip. Although honestly when it's a map full of scouts....yeah I agree with you there. (They don't bother me individually. Only when there's only one medic and 5 scouts)

LinkManDX · 08-14-2009, 02:41 PM

I got a medal for the soldier from one of those pages.

Incidentally, I tried out king of the hill today, and it was a lot more fun than I thought it would be.

Prince Toad · 08-14-2009, 04:51 PM

KotH and a new push-pull CP map sound awesome. I'll try them out soon.

Not sure about the FaN/Sandman changes. I guess the double jump means that you can use the Scattergun with the Sandman now, but 95 health? That's a steep price to pay. The heavies spinning their gun thing is fair, and I like the damage boost and minimum distance reduction. But you can't stun ubers anymore? That was like the whole point. I guess with the buffs they wanted to make it more useful in combat and less of an uber-stopper. They'll have to change that achievement though.

As for the FaN updates, I have no idea how those will affect things. I'll test them out, I play FaN/Sandman Scout all the time.

edit: Alright, just tried stuff out. First, I'd like to point something out that I didn't see on the site: The Sandman now does a melee attack with left-click and shoots the ball with right-click. That's a pretty significant thing if you play with the Sandman.

Let me say that I love most of the changes to Scout. I'll get the one complaint out of the way now, which is that the FaN can't be used to propel you as effectively as before. (If you were falling forward and you aimed it at a certain angle, you could get a pretty big speed boost forward.) But the rest is great. Being able to double-jump with the Sandman means you don't need to use the FaN anymore with it, though I do anyway. Losing the double-jump before meant that you traded mobility for utility. Now you keep your mobility-- and you're forced to use it, because you're dead in an instant if you don't. It makes the class more frantic and fun, and I think it makes skill more important. If you're good, you can jump and dodge around and wreak havoc much better than before, but if you're bad you'll just get slaughtered much faster than before.

Haven't tried the new maps, unfortunately.

Metal Man · 08-14-2009, 07:19 PM

KotH is one of my favorite game modes in perfect dark. I can't wait to try it out when I get some free time.

heh · 08-15-2009, 04:17 PM

Quote:

The Sandman, however, has been changed fundamentally.

1. You can't stun ubers.
2. You lose 30 health.
3. Damage nerf has been changed from 25% to 50%.
4. You get the doublejump.

FaN scouts will be more overpowered, while scattergun scouts won't use it because they need health to get out of battles.

What do you think?

im glad they buffed the sandman it sucked so much before

Rainbow Dash · 08-15-2009, 08:11 PM

i never used it past the normal post-update phase so yeah it did suck

cannot think of a situation where it would be useful, this makes it a slightly more useful alternative

Prince Toad · 08-16-2009, 01:17 AM

I already pointed out several situations where it's useful, and in fact you'd die without it. See the Team Fortress 2 Discussion topic, I know it's hard for you to remember these things.

I'm not really sure how much they buffed it, actually. Before it was mostly for stopping ubers, but also for getting you out of tight spots and helping take down heavies. The buffs they gave it are nice, but I've been playing with it and that -30 max health is devastating. One rocket and you're dead.

The big effects are that you're more mobile (and like I said, you have to be), you can't stun ubers, and you don't have to use the FaN.

Rainbow Dash · 08-16-2009, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince Toad

See the Team Fortress 2 Discussion topic, I know it's hard for you to remember these things.

OH NO MY FAVORITE WEAPON IS UNDER ATTACK BETTER RESORT TO INSULTS!

And I'm sure it's quite hard for you to remember that my opinion is that the sandman sucks because all other melees had been straight upgrades before the sandman. It's far too situational for me to use it as a replacement for the ol' aluminum bat.

heh · 08-16-2009, 12:50 PM

STUN UBERS? WOW. THIS IS WORTH BEING SACRIFICING HALF MY MOBILITY AND MAKING PEOPLE HARDER TO KILL

no seriously the new sandman actually owns because your sacrificing stun ubers and some irrelavant health (my glass cannon class is even MORE FRAGILE? holy carp) for more damage, and all your mobility again. previously the sandman basically had one use, stopping ubers, which would have been overpowered if the weapon didn't gimp you totally.

basically you can stun people in a useful fashion now

Prince Toad · 08-17-2009, 12:13 AM

^There are exactly two ways to stop ubers: pyro air blasts and counter-ubers. Most pyros seem to use the Backburner, and you're much more likely to have your ball handy than a medic is to have an uber charged. (And if you're near enough to a resupply locker, you can run in and grab one.) The ability to stop ubers is a huge, huge deal. As for the glass cannon thing I'll address that in a bit.

Chunky, there's no connection between the following statements:

1. The Sandman sucks.
2. The melees aside from the Sandman were straight upgrades.

You might independently think those two things but one does not imply the other. The Sandman is not a straight upgrade, true. It's still very useful... or at least it was pre-update. There's a big difference between 125 and 95 health. You'll survive a point-blank scattergun shot, a rocket, and a grenade at 125 but not at 95. I'm thinking of switching to the old bat for the first time since I got the Sandman.

That said, stunning is still awesome. It's especially great on the narrow catwalks and small CP in Nucleus. I might try the other bat out and see what I like better. I also might wanna take out the regular scattergun and see if I prefer that with the Sandman, since I can get more damage on a stunned opponent than with the FaN.

heh · 08-17-2009, 09:44 AM

i don't get it. your willing to completely gimp your mobility or use an even more terrible weapon to gain it back just so you can stun ubers, but you don't want to give up more of your already terrible health?

There is more then just that way to stop ubers anyway. in fact you forgot the easiest way, just juggle them with rockets or grenades so they can't advance. Or, even better, don't let them go uber.

PS: "most people use the back burner" isn't a counterargument to "you can use the flamethrower".

Rainbow Dash · 08-17-2009, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince Toad

Chunky, there's no connection between the following statements:

1. The Sandman sucks.
2. The melees aside from the Sandman were straight upgrades.

Yes there is, because we were expecting a weapon that would follow the trend set by the other weapons. Instead we got a useless gimmick that was only interesting before they nerfed it completely.

Prince Toad · 08-17-2009, 05:56 PM

^Mmhm.

^^Well, not letting them get ubers isn't really a practical option most of the time. True about rockets and grenades, but even those won't let you kill the ubered player like the Sandman.

I happen to like the FaN. The knockback and the faster firing rate are good enough for me. Anyway, like I said, there's a difference between "low health" and "constantly critically injured." One lucky grenade, rocket, or scattergun shot and that's it. No chance to counter, retreat, finish off the demo, or whatever. And losing your double jump doesn't mean you're not still the fastest class in the game. You don't have to leave the ground to dodge, though of course having the double jump is better than not.

PS. Is too. If all (or most of) the pyros on your team have the Backburner then you can't rely on them to stop ubers. Simple as that.

Rainbow Dash · 08-17-2009, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince Toad

^Mmhm.

whatever bro

Prince Toad · 08-17-2009, 06:37 PM

Man **** me. I just took out the Scattergun and regular bat and kicked a lot of ass on Nucleus. I still think the new items are useful, but I'm not gonna defend them as vehemently as I was.

08-13-2009, 06:56 PM	#1
LinkManDX Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Because political usernames ftw Gender: Posts: 3,582 Thanks: 297 Thanked 266 Times in 156 Posts	TF2 Classless Update Since we have several TF2 players here, I thought a thread should be started. For a full list of changes, go to Team Fortress 2 - Classless Update. I know a bunch of other changes are coming down the pipe based on the competitive community's suggestions as well as the ones done to the Sandman and FaN. I'm interested in everyone's thoughts on the Sandman. The only new features for the FaN are the knockback based on health/weight and the correct self-knockback, which are good, but really don't change the weapon much. The Sandman, however, has been changed fundamentally. 1. You can't stun ubers. 2. You lose 30 health. 3. Damage nerf has been changed from 25% to 50%. 4. You get the doublejump. FaN scouts will be more overpowered, while scattergun scouts won't use it because they need health to get out of battles. What do you think?

08-14-2009, 04:51 PM	#8
Prince Toad Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rookery Gender: Posts: 11,720 Thanks: 50 Thanked 65 Times in 56 Posts	KotH and a new push-pull CP map sound awesome. I'll try them out soon. Not sure about the FaN/Sandman changes. I guess the double jump means that you can use the Scattergun with the Sandman now, but 95 health? That's a steep price to pay. The heavies spinning their gun thing is fair, and I like the damage boost and minimum distance reduction. But you can't stun ubers anymore? That was like the whole point. I guess with the buffs they wanted to make it more useful in combat and less of an uber-stopper. They'll have to change that achievement though. As for the FaN updates, I have no idea how those will affect things. I'll test them out, I play FaN/Sandman Scout all the time. edit: Alright, just tried stuff out. First, I'd like to point something out that I didn't see on the site: The Sandman now does a melee attack with left-click and shoots the ball with right-click. That's a pretty significant thing if you play with the Sandman. Let me say that I love most of the changes to Scout. I'll get the one complaint out of the way now, which is that the FaN can't be used to propel you as effectively as before. (If you were falling forward and you aimed it at a certain angle, you could get a pretty big speed boost forward.) But the rest is great. Being able to double-jump with the Sandman means you don't need to use the FaN anymore with it, though I do anyway. Losing the double-jump before meant that you traded mobility for utility. Now you keep your mobility-- and you're forced to use it, because you're dead in an instant if you don't. It makes the class more frantic and fun, and I think it makes skill more important. If you're good, you can jump and dodge around and wreak havoc much better than before, but if you're bad you'll just get slaughtered much faster than before. Haven't tried the new maps, unfortunately. Last edited by Prince Toad; 08-14-2009 at 07:13 PM.

08-17-2009, 12:13 AM	#15
Prince Toad Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rookery Gender: Posts: 11,720 Thanks: 50 Thanked 65 Times in 56 Posts	^There are exactly two ways to stop ubers: pyro air blasts and counter-ubers. Most pyros seem to use the Backburner, and you're much more likely to have your ball handy than a medic is to have an uber charged. (And if you're near enough to a resupply locker, you can run in and grab one.) The ability to stop ubers is a huge, huge deal. As for the glass cannon thing I'll address that in a bit. Chunky, there's no connection between the following statements: 1. The Sandman sucks. 2. The melees aside from the Sandman were straight upgrades. You might independently think those two things but one does not imply the other. The Sandman is not a straight upgrade, true. It's still very useful... or at least it was pre-update. There's a big difference between 125 and 95 health. You'll survive a point-blank scattergun shot, a rocket, and a grenade at 125 but not at 95. I'm thinking of switching to the old bat for the first time since I got the Sandman. That said, stunning is still awesome. It's especially great on the narrow catwalks and small CP in Nucleus. I might try the other bat out and see what I like better. I also might wanna take out the regular scattergun and see if I prefer that with the Sandman, since I can get more damage on a stunned opponent than with the FaN. Last edited by Prince Toad; 08-17-2009 at 12:29 AM.

08-13-2009, 10:00 PM	#2
Sim Kid Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: The state of Denial Gender: Posts: 8,884 Thanks: 80 Thanked 198 Times in 122 Posts	Boy. I honestly didn't find the Sandman to be whateveryone says it was but now I can only imagine the "they nerfed it so it sucks"-mentality of a class-based game showing up after this.

08-14-2009, 12:02 AM	#3
Metal Man Fairy-Slaying Maniac Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: 1592 Miles Away From Here Gender: Posts: 18,062 Thanks: 148 Thanked 683 Times in 482 Posts	Sounds like it'll make Scouts much less irritating to me (I encounter them with the cheeze they used to have as a Pyro.)

08-14-2009, 06:02 AM	#4
Kargath et in Arcadia ego Join Date: Jul 2001 Gender: Posts: 8,334 Thanks: 1,226 Thanked 780 Times in 488 Posts	The hidden update pages are interesting. Search in the page source files.

08-14-2009, 02:41 PM	#7
LinkManDX Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Because political usernames ftw Gender: Posts: 3,582 Thanks: 297 Thanked 266 Times in 156 Posts	I got a medal for the soldier from one of those pages. Incidentally, I tried out king of the hill today, and it was a lot more fun than I thought it would be.

08-14-2009, 07:19 PM	#9
Metal Man Fairy-Slaying Maniac Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: 1592 Miles Away From Here Gender: Posts: 18,062 Thanks: 148 Thanked 683 Times in 482 Posts	KotH is one of my favorite game modes in perfect dark. I can't wait to try it out when I get some free time.

08-15-2009, 08:11 PM	#11
Rainbow Dash been dreamin', i've been waitin' Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: a bomb-ass cloud house bachelorette pad Gender: Posts: 24,396 Thanks: 173 Thanked 1,179 Times in 716 Posts	i never used it past the normal post-update phase so yeah it did suck cannot think of a situation where it would be useful, this makes it a slightly more useful alternative

08-16-2009, 01:17 AM	#12
Prince Toad Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rookery Gender: Posts: 11,720 Thanks: 50 Thanked 65 Times in 56 Posts	I already pointed out several situations where it's useful, and in fact you'd die without it. See the Team Fortress 2 Discussion topic, I know it's hard for you to remember these things. I'm not really sure how much they buffed it, actually. Before it was mostly for stopping ubers, but also for getting you out of tight spots and helping take down heavies. The buffs they gave it are nice, but I've been playing with it and that -30 max health is devastating. One rocket and you're dead. The big effects are that you're more mobile (and like I said, you have to be), you can't stun ubers, and you don't have to use the FaN.

08-16-2009, 12:50 PM	#14
heh Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: lo-ca-tion; Noun- 1. a place or situation occupied: That house is in a fine location Gender: Posts: 9,849 Thanks: 710 Thanked 955 Times in 628 Posts	STUN UBERS? WOW. THIS IS WORTH BEING SACRIFICING HALF MY MOBILITY AND MAKING PEOPLE HARDER TO KILL no seriously the new sandman actually owns because your sacrificing stun ubers and some irrelavant health (my glass cannon class is even MORE FRAGILE? holy carp) for more damage, and all your mobility again. previously the sandman basically had one use, stopping ubers, which would have been overpowered if the weapon didn't gimp you totally. basically you can stun people in a useful fashion now

08-17-2009, 09:44 AM	#16
heh Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: lo-ca-tion; Noun- 1. a place or situation occupied: That house is in a fine location Gender: Posts: 9,849 Thanks: 710 Thanked 955 Times in 628 Posts	i don't get it. your willing to completely gimp your mobility or use an even more terrible weapon to gain it back just so you can stun ubers, but you don't want to give up more of your already terrible health? There is more then just that way to stop ubers anyway. in fact you forgot the easiest way, just juggle them with rockets or grenades so they can't advance. Or, even better, don't let them go uber. PS: "most people use the back burner" isn't a counterargument to "you can use the flamethrower".

08-17-2009, 05:56 PM	#18
Prince Toad Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rookery Gender: Posts: 11,720 Thanks: 50 Thanked 65 Times in 56 Posts	^Mmhm. ^^Well, not letting them get ubers isn't really a practical option most of the time. True about rockets and grenades, but even those won't let you kill the ubered player like the Sandman. I happen to like the FaN. The knockback and the faster firing rate are good enough for me. Anyway, like I said, there's a difference between "low health" and "constantly critically injured." One lucky grenade, rocket, or scattergun shot and that's it. No chance to counter, retreat, finish off the demo, or whatever. And losing your double jump doesn't mean you're not still the fastest class in the game. You don't have to leave the ground to dodge, though of course having the double jump is better than not. PS. Is too. If all (or most of) the pyros on your team have the Backburner then you can't rely on them to stop ubers. Simple as that.

08-17-2009, 06:37 PM	#20
Prince Toad Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rookery Gender: Posts: 11,720 Thanks: 50 Thanked 65 Times in 56 Posts	Man **** me. I just took out the Scattergun and regular bat and kicked a lot of ass on Nucleus. I still think the new items are useful, but I'm not gonna defend them as vehemently as I was.