What Ails the Gunjin

HolocaustHybrid · 10-17-2007, 10:27 PM

The Gunjin, it seems to me, is dying. At least, compared to my prime days of activity here, it is merely a shadow of itself. And why, might you ask? Truly, I don't think it's because the nature of the board has changed all that much, and since there are still familiar faces, it's not that the vanguard has been replaced by a green crowd.

I believe what ails the Gunjin is the way people perceive the art of writing combat. People seem to view these fights as adversarial endeavors, where you are trying to defeat the other character, but also the other writer. This is not the right angle of approach. The well-written fight is a collaborative endeavor between both authors that, like any good fiction, should tell a story. Furthermore, this story is one part in the ongoing story of the participants' lives.

This is where the breakdown occurs. Somehow, despite many characters in the Gunjin having lovingly tended backgrounds and personas, each fight ends up being about beating the other guy, rather than create something enjoyable. I believe this is largely because these characters don't really do much other than fight each other. There is no context for them or their battles.

Hastily constructed meetings-of-chance are fielded as the explanation instead of any real relevant discussion about how and why these characters cross paths as opponents which means that, when they do, they're just fighting to fight, really. They have no proper motivation, and consequently, neither does the writer. All you can hope to gain from writing such a fight is praise for your brutality. In such baseless combat, your character lacks room for growth and therefore becomes stagnant throughout the fight. Rather than truly writing, you are engaging in mindless self-indulgence.

Driven by the sole goal of victory, writers of the Gunjin will enable their characters to survive beatings well beyond their means in hopes of pulling off successively more desperate maneuvers, all of which inevitably fail because the other guy is driven by the same basic notions of the undertaking. Now, I like epic clashes as much as the next geek, but really, no out-and-out brawl between two characters should ever take ten minutes to read, and certainly not because the authors refuse to let themselves take a loss. (Oh lawd, your internet credz will go down!) If you've read Musashi, by Eiji Yoshikawa, there is some awesome samurai action going down, but the longest it ever took me to read a fight scene was four minutes for the actual action part (six minutes including pursuits). A well-written fight does not suffer from brevity, but benefits from it!

Two other problems perpetuate the novella-length fight-scene trend of the Gunjin along with the unwillingness to bite the bullet. The first is that many people take a DBZ approach to the combat, and whip out progressively more powerful/elaborate moves and forms as the battles wears on, saving the best for last with a sort of showman mentality. Real fights don't happen like that. Gangster A doesn't take a punch from Gangster B and suddenly drop the crowbar he was trying to hit him with to whip out his gun and say "Now, behold my true power!" No, he shoots Gangster B in the face right off the bat.
Seriously, if you're not fighting to restrain someone, there's no reason to be concerned about excessive force; use the abilities at your command like a real fighter would, not in a fashion that creates fake drama and an overwrought climax.

The second problem is that sometimes, people try too bloody hard to be clever in their writing. Sonic devices overplayed until cartoony, excessive repetition of 'power' words, forced emphasis via italics and other devices which would be legitimate when used sparingly and in appropriate spots are slapped unto otherwise run-of-the-mill writing to make it seem more sophisticated or deep. This has to stop. The pressure to include such contrivances prompts writers to spend way too much time telling their part of the story, time that is not in any way used to advance the actual flow of the plot.

But, to return to the main issue; the answer lies in a paradigm shift among the writers. Stop challenging people because you want to beat someone up, and start taking fights that will be valuable writing. Develop your characters some, and work with your fellow writers rather than against them! Your battles will always be wastes of space and time if they do nothing more than speak of the exchange of blows. If they tell the story within which such an exchange occurs, however, then we have a rewarding venture on our hands.

~Holokostos

Wyborn · 10-17-2007, 10:32 PM

I like this post.

....I need to make some posts.

Microphone_Kirby · 10-17-2007, 11:02 PM

... This is incredible. I hate to admit it, but I'm guilty of all of the negatives pointed out in the post. I'm currently motivated by victory, not telling a good story (and I only just started here). Your post has opened my eyes HolocaustHybrid, but I don't know anyone here enough to try to work with anyone. I'll try to be a better writer, but it's hard going alone when me and my fellow writers' stories conflict with each other. Please help me; I want to be better than who I am now...

The Willful Wanderer · 10-17-2007, 11:59 PM

Some of this, I have been saying for *years*, if not very loudly, and some of it I am guilty of to varying degrees. But I pretty much always maintain posting. It sounds kinda doofy to say, but pretty nearly all the fights and storylines and whatnot that I've been in that have left off, I was either last poster, or left waiting for someone else to post. I'm still not sure why that sort of a standard isn't more commonplace.

Speed · 10-18-2007, 09:06 AM

That's why my OC is a bounty hunter to better explain the chance meetings, and in certain cases I will try and work a fight into my OC's story I just recentley started posting but I've been reading for ages and heve definately seen the Battle quality decrease.

Trickster-kun · 10-18-2007, 04:46 PM

-stamps sign of guilty on forehead-

'The biggest guns are always the most fun to dismantle.' This is something I heard from a friend of mine some time ago, and to an extent, I thought that this was something that applied to the Gunjin on more than one occasion. >> But now I see that it's not the size of the gun, but rather the wit behind its creator, which counts. Or the sturdiness with which it's built. Or something. ._.

Life has a funny way to get in the middle of all that you would want to accomplish, instead smashing your conscience with other stuff that may ultimately be more or less important than what you really want to accomplish. And here I boasted so much about wanting to learn more at the Gunjin, when my post count in this area can be counted with the fingers on a single hand. Oh, the irony.

I guess... I needed someone to smack the cold, hard truth on my forehead like you just have, Holocaust. Time to get to work.

**Galefore** · 10-18-2007, 05:04 PM

Thank you very, very much Holocaust. I think we needed something like that. As soon as I get off my lazy ass, I'm in for a good, hard battle and maybe a story topic.

But first, let me get this off my chest:

I would like to, if it doesn't bother anyone too much, cancel all of my previous battles before this. Why? I want to start over. Stop worrying about being in over my head. I want to do one thing at a time, so less stress will kill me. So to any, and all, who are in a current, long-forgotten battle with me... I'm afraid we'll have to start over sometime. I will likely continue the battle with Metal Man, if not only because I like the character I was going to use, but otherwise it seems I'm just going to start my list of current battles over.

Metal Man · 10-18-2007, 09:50 PM

I was trying to say something like this, but people dismissed it out of hand as some form of insanity.

Since this person has stated both ideas similar to what I was mentioning and then some even better points I forgot existed, I'll reduce my comment to "Yeah, Holocasthybrid's correct."

I know some stuff about how to accomplish what he's talking about, but rather than be shouted down again, I'll just say I think I have some knowledge and watch from the sidelines for now.

Robotazy · 10-18-2007, 09:59 PM

^ Liiiiiiike Nameless Author and Kargath?

Metal Man · 10-18-2007, 10:35 PM

Sadly, yes.

I can't give help to people who don't want it, neither should I be bothering them with it if they wish to stay the same.

The best I can do is practice what I preach--trying to bring out the writing in a battle, rather than obsessing over victory. And I shall be sure to continue that tradition in the battle which Galefore is continuing. For it is not if I win or lose--it is merely if I have fun writing it.

Inferno Dragon · 10-18-2007, 11:40 PM

it seems all of us have lost our way, and thanks to holocosthybrid, we can redeem ourselves.

Erdawn Il Deus · 10-19-2007, 01:44 AM

HolocaustHybrid · 10-19-2007, 02:45 AM

Link The Survivor · 10-19-2007, 07:54 AM

Hm...this one's words speak to an old ghost like me...

Maybe one day...I'll return for at least one more fight...

(And to kill my pseudo-dramatic mood here...I'm betting 1000 Yen that SML'll sniff out what I've said and prod me for that ever put off rematch...)

Wyborn · 10-19-2007, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolocaustHybrid

Ugh?

I doubt he's "ugh"ing your idea, as he tends to like short scenes of immense and horrifying brutality with realistic results. He may be rolling his eyes at how everyone is suddenly fawning over you.

HolocaustHybrid · 10-19-2007, 09:42 AM

I was more concerned he was going to barf all over my thread. It's a fact, Erdawn vomit erodes the internet.

Metal Man · 10-19-2007, 04:45 PM

Well, yeah. Me and two other people said similar things and got full of bullet holes.

Now they all magically listen to you.

Huh?!?!?!?!

Wyborn · 10-19-2007, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metal Man

Well, yeah. Me and two other people said similar things and got full of bullet holes.

Now they all magically listen to you.

Huh?!?!?!?!

Metal Man. Read his post.

Where in there does he suggest anything at all about attacks not connecting? Honestly?

t3hDarkness · 10-19-2007, 11:57 PM

I agree with the points completely, save for one important thing.

I like to see clever. Seeing clever is what inspires me to draw, write, or create in any other form.

I used those blamed Italics too, didn't I?

EDIT: V Wait, Snarky is a bad thing?

HolocaustHybrid · 10-20-2007, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t3hDarkness

I agree with the points completely, save for one important thing.

I like to see clever. Seeing clever is what inspires me to draw, write, or create in any other form.

I used those blamed Italics too, didn't I?

I'm not saying clever is a bad thing in-and-of-itself. I'm saying the issue arises when people try too hard and--as elaborated in my original post--abuse tricks of the trade to try and force just how clever they are upon the reader. Then it goes from clever to snarky.

10-17-2007, 10:27 PM	#1
HolocaustHybrid Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 139 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 5 Posts	What Ails the Gunjin The Gunjin, it seems to me, is dying. At least, compared to my prime days of activity here, it is merely a shadow of itself. And why, might you ask? Truly, I don't think it's because the nature of the board has changed all that much, and since there are still familiar faces, it's not that the vanguard has been replaced by a green crowd. I believe what ails the Gunjin is the way people perceive the art of writing combat. People seem to view these fights as adversarial endeavors, where you are trying to defeat the other character, but also the other writer. This is not the right angle of approach. The well-written fight is a collaborative endeavor between both authors that, like any good fiction, should tell a story. Furthermore, this story is one part in the ongoing story of the participants' lives. This is where the breakdown occurs. Somehow, despite many characters in the Gunjin having lovingly tended backgrounds and personas, each fight ends up being about beating the other guy, rather than create something enjoyable. I believe this is largely because these characters don't really do much other than fight each other. There is no context for them or their battles. Hastily constructed meetings-of-chance are fielded as the explanation instead of any real relevant discussion about how and why these characters cross paths as opponents which means that, when they do, they're just fighting to fight, really. They have no proper motivation, and consequently, neither does the writer. All you can hope to gain from writing such a fight is praise for your brutality. In such baseless combat, your character lacks room for growth and therefore becomes stagnant throughout the fight. Rather than truly writing, you are engaging in mindless self-indulgence. Driven by the sole goal of victory, writers of the Gunjin will enable their characters to survive beatings well beyond their means in hopes of pulling off successively more desperate maneuvers, all of which inevitably fail because the other guy is driven by the same basic notions of the undertaking. Now, I like epic clashes as much as the next geek, but really, no out-and-out brawl between two characters should ever take ten minutes to read, and certainly not because the authors refuse to let themselves take a loss. (Oh lawd, your internet credz will go down!) If you've read Musashi, by Eiji Yoshikawa, there is some awesome samurai action going down, but the longest it ever took me to read a fight scene was four minutes for the actual action part (six minutes including pursuits). A well-written fight does not suffer from brevity, but benefits from it! Two other problems perpetuate the novella-length fight-scene trend of the Gunjin along with the unwillingness to bite the bullet. The first is that many people take a DBZ approach to the combat, and whip out progressively more powerful/elaborate moves and forms as the battles wears on, saving the best for last with a sort of showman mentality. Real fights don't happen like that. Gangster A doesn't take a punch from Gangster B and suddenly drop the crowbar he was trying to hit him with to whip out his gun and say "Now, behold my true power!" No, he shoots Gangster B in the face right off the bat. Seriously, if you're not fighting to restrain someone, there's no reason to be concerned about excessive force; use the abilities at your command like a real fighter would, not in a fashion that creates fake drama and an overwrought climax. The second problem is that sometimes, people try too bloody hard to be clever in their writing. Sonic devices overplayed until cartoony, excessive repetition of 'power' words, forced emphasis via italics and other devices which would be legitimate when used sparingly and in appropriate spots are slapped unto otherwise run-of-the-mill writing to make it seem more sophisticated or deep. This has to stop. The pressure to include such contrivances prompts writers to spend way too much time telling their part of the story, time that is not in any way used to advance the actual flow of the plot. But, to return to the main issue; the answer lies in a paradigm shift among the writers. Stop challenging people because you want to beat someone up, and start taking fights that will be valuable writing. Develop your characters some, and work with your fellow writers rather than against them! Your battles will always be wastes of space and time if they do nothing more than speak of the exchange of blows. If they tell the story within which such an exchange occurs, however, then we have a rewarding venture on our hands. ~Holokostos

10-17-2007, 11:02 PM	#3
Microphone_Kirby Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: None of your business. Gender: Posts: 7,155 Thanks: 559 Thanked 225 Times in 181 Posts Blog Entries: 6	... This is incredible. I hate to admit it, but I'm guilty of all of the negatives pointed out in the post. I'm currently motivated by victory, not telling a good story (and I only just started here). Your post has opened my eyes HolocaustHybrid, but I don't know anyone here enough to try to work with anyone. I'll try to be a better writer, but it's hard going alone when me and my fellow writers' stories conflict with each other. Please help me; I want to be better than who I am now... Last edited by Microphone_Kirby; 10-17-2007 at 11:10 PM.

10-17-2007, 11:59 PM	#4
The Willful Wanderer Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Aisle 12, between the kumquats and the radicchio. Gender: Posts: 2,325 Thanks: 168 Thanked 137 Times in 90 Posts	Ears. Some of this, I have been saying for years, if not very loudly, and some of it I am guilty of to varying degrees. But I pretty much always maintain posting. It sounds kinda doofy to say, but pretty nearly all the fights and storylines and whatnot that I've been in that have left off, I was either last poster, or left waiting for someone else to post. I'm still not sure why that sort of a standard isn't more commonplace.

10-18-2007, 04:46 PM	#6
Trickster-kun Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: I moved. Somewhere. Gender: Posts: 105 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Amazing. -stamps sign of guilty on forehead- 'The biggest guns are always the most fun to dismantle.' This is something I heard from a friend of mine some time ago, and to an extent, I thought that this was something that applied to the Gunjin on more than one occasion. >> But now I see that it's not the size of the gun, but rather the wit behind its creator, which counts. Or the sturdiness with which it's built. Or something. ._. Life has a funny way to get in the middle of all that you would want to accomplish, instead smashing your conscience with other stuff that may ultimately be more or less important than what you really want to accomplish. And here I boasted so much about wanting to learn more at the Gunjin, when my post count in this area can be counted with the fingers on a single hand. Oh, the irony. I guess... I needed someone to smack the cold, hard truth on my forehead like you just have, Holocaust. Time to get to work.

10-19-2007, 01:44 AM	#12
Erdawn Il Deus Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Threading the jeweled thrones of earth under my sandalled feet Gender: Posts: 3,056 Thanks: 4 Thanked 47 Times in 41 Posts	Ugh.

10-17-2007, 10:32 PM	#2
Wyborn Zelda Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: All over the place Gender: Posts: 12,388 Thanks: 87 Thanked 469 Times in 281 Posts	I like this post. ....I need to make some posts.

10-18-2007, 09:06 AM	#5
Speed Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: If there's a bright center to the universe I'm on the planet it's farthest from Gender: Posts: 3,747 Thanks: 1,598 Thanked 320 Times in 224 Posts Blog Entries: 1	That's why my OC is a bounty hunter to better explain the chance meetings, and in certain cases I will try and work a fight into my OC's story I just recentley started posting but I've been reading for ages and heve definately seen the Battle quality decrease.

10-18-2007, 05:04 PM	#7
Galefore EXPLOSION GOD OF MUSIC Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Some studio somewhere Gender: Posts: 8,275 Thanks: 1,361 Thanked 826 Times in 535 Posts Blog Entries: 5	Thank you very, very much Holocaust. I think we needed something like that. As soon as I get off my lazy ass, I'm in for a good, hard battle and maybe a story topic. But first, let me get this off my chest: I would like to, if it doesn't bother anyone too much, cancel all of my previous battles before this. Why? I want to start over. Stop worrying about being in over my head. I want to do one thing at a time, so less stress will kill me. So to any, and all, who are in a current, long-forgotten battle with me... I'm afraid we'll have to start over sometime. I will likely continue the battle with Metal Man, if not only because I like the character I was going to use, but otherwise it seems I'm just going to start my list of current battles over.

10-18-2007, 09:50 PM	#8
Metal Man Fairy-Slaying Maniac Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: 1592 Miles Away From Here Gender: Posts: 18,062 Thanks: 148 Thanked 683 Times in 482 Posts	I was trying to say something like this, but people dismissed it out of hand as some form of insanity. Since this person has stated both ideas similar to what I was mentioning and then some even better points I forgot existed, I'll reduce my comment to "Yeah, Holocasthybrid's correct." I know some stuff about how to accomplish what he's talking about, but rather than be shouted down again, I'll just say I think I have some knowledge and watch from the sidelines for now.

10-18-2007, 09:59 PM	#9
Robotazy PRESS ANY KEY TO PANIC! Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: A Tiny Shed Gender: Posts: 16,483 Thanks: 529 Thanked 1,254 Times in 897 Posts Blog Entries: 46	^ Liiiiiiike Nameless Author and Kargath?

10-18-2007, 10:35 PM	#10
Metal Man Fairy-Slaying Maniac Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: 1592 Miles Away From Here Gender: Posts: 18,062 Thanks: 148 Thanked 683 Times in 482 Posts	Sadly, yes. I can't give help to people who don't want it, neither should I be bothering them with it if they wish to stay the same. The best I can do is practice what I preach--trying to bring out the writing in a battle, rather than obsessing over victory. And I shall be sure to continue that tradition in the battle which Galefore is continuing. For it is not if I win or lose--it is merely if I have fun writing it.

10-18-2007, 11:40 PM	#11
Inferno Dragon Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Planet Draco Gender: Posts: 6,038 Thanks: 67 Thanked 36 Times in 29 Posts	it seems all of us have lost our way, and thanks to holocosthybrid, we can redeem ourselves.

10-19-2007, 02:45 AM	#13
HolocaustHybrid Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 139 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 5 Posts	Ugh?

10-19-2007, 07:54 AM	#14
Link The Survivor Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: 日本の名古屋 Gender: Posts: 5,608 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hm...this one's words speak to an old ghost like me... Maybe one day...I'll return for at least one more fight... (And to kill my pseudo-dramatic mood here...I'm betting 1000 Yen that SML'll sniff out what I've said and prod me for that ever put off rematch...)

10-19-2007, 09:42 AM	#16
HolocaustHybrid Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 139 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 5 Posts	I was more concerned he was going to barf all over my thread. It's a fact, Erdawn vomit erodes the internet.

10-19-2007, 04:45 PM	#17
Metal Man Fairy-Slaying Maniac Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: 1592 Miles Away From Here Gender: Posts: 18,062 Thanks: 148 Thanked 683 Times in 482 Posts	Well, yeah. Me and two other people said similar things and got full of bullet holes. Now they all magically listen to you. Huh?!?!?!?!

10-19-2007, 11:57 PM	#19
t3hDarkness Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: I weep oily black tears of joy. Gender: Posts: 7,590 Thanks: 119 Thanked 418 Times in 306 Posts Blog Entries: 5	I agree with the points completely, save for one important thing. I like to see clever. Seeing clever is what inspires me to draw, write, or create in any other form. I used those blamed Italics too, didn't I? EDIT: V Wait, Snarky is a bad thing? Last edited by t3hDarkness; 10-20-2007 at 12:19 AM.