Attention: Evidence that Zero Mission cannot possibly be Metroid 1's remake!

[Dai Grepher]

That is your opinion, not fact. Show me a quote from the games or from the director that the word Prime is meant to be a marker in the timeline. Submit some proof for once. Your explanation is illogical. I told you that there couldn’t be two number twos of a chronological order. What is your next theory, that the title is meant to mean prime numbers as well since they can only be divided by 1 and that number?
Also, I am sure that the coloration of random letters in my envied title is just a coincidence.

[Alucard]

If you look up "Metroid Series" on Wikipedia.com, and scroll down, you would get this:

Found on Wikipedia.com
The release order of games in the Metroid series is as follows:

Metroid (1986 - NES / Famicom Disk System, re-released for the Game Boy Advance in 2004 as a part of the Classic NES Series)
Metroid II: Return of Samus (1991 - Game Boy)
Super Metroid (1994 - SNES)
Metroid Prime (2002 - Nintendo GameCube)
Metroid Fusion (2002 - Game Boy Advance)
Metroid: Zero Mission (2004 - Game Boy Advance)
Metroid Prime 2: Echoes (2004 - Nintendo GameCube)
Metroid Prime: Hunters - (2005 - Nintendo DS)
Metroid Prime Pinball - (2005 - Nintendo DS)
Metroid Prime 3 (TBA - Nintendo Revolution)

The chronology of the Metroid fictional universe does not match its release order. It is as follows:

Metroid: Zero Mission (an enhanced remake of the original Metroid)
Metroid Prime
Metroid Prime: Hunters
Metroid Prime 2: Echoes
Metroid II: Return of Samus
Super Metroid
Metroid Fusion

This is the exact timeline as listed on Wikipedia, and that is how the series goes. Everyone on the net, aside from you Dai Grepher, knows that this is the official timeline of Metroid, and that ZM replaces the original Metroid in that timeline.

Also found on that same page Under Metroid Prime:
According to the fictional universe that the Metroid series is set in, Metroid Prime is the interquel of the first two installments of the Metroid series, the original Metroid and Metroid II: The Return of Samus.

[Dai Grepher]

Wikipedia is not a canon source of information. Their resources are fansites, and most of the fansites have the storyline wrong to begin with. I have only found a few articles and sites that have the correct timeline of Zero Mission taking place before Metroid.

[Koga]

I didn't even notice the red letters spelled anything [img]graemlins/lol.gif[/img]

Dai, would you mind posting what you think is the chronological order of the game? With all this Prime talk going on it seems to me you don't think that the Primes come after 1/ZM and before II.

[Jonathan Resop]

Originally posted by Dai Grepher:
Also, I am sure that the coloration of random letters in my envied title is just a coincidence.

Haha. Suuuure. Coincidence. [img]graemlins/lol.gif[/img] You just keep telling yourself that. I-D-I-O-T.

-jay

[CaptHayfever]

Wikipedia's resources are everything, including official Nintendo statements. In fact, the staff there goes out of their way to triple-check and verify that things like timelines are proper as established by the official canon. Believe you me, if that was just the musing of some fansite, it would've been removed from the article long ago.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

[Dai Grepher]

It probably will be once they see one of my topics. Wikipedia gets its information from sites that have false information. Nintendo did state in their magazine that Zero Mission was a remake, but has since then changed their belief on it, which you can see in the bonus disc and in their more recent statements about the game. Zero Mission is said to be a separate adventure from Metroid, and the only thing that the director said Zero Mission is based on of Metroid is its gameplay.
I will not discuss the timeline or the order of each mission because it has no relevance to the topic.

[Chunky Kong12345]

Blah blah blah. Is talking the only thing you're good at?

[darkintention]

I'm not sure if its worth replying this deep into the topic, but well, whatever...

First, Dai, that was some pretty in depth map work there. I can see how, given only the in game maps, the Tourians don't line up and why that might lead it to seem that Zero Mission and Metroid are not the same thing.

But there's more to timeline placement maps. You have to take in artistic intent. And the artistic intent of Zero Mission was to update Metroid. The intent was to change the map, add new mini-bosses, upgrade Kraid and Ridley to there more formidable Super Metroid forms, and to add an extended area after the original game.

The quotes you brought up support this argument, not your own.

"[We wanted to]...retell the story of Samus' original mission."

As said, you cannot retell something that hasn't already been told. While you counter that Samus is retelling a mission we have not heard, it is not Samus saying it is a retelling. Sakamoto and his team is doing the retelling in this quote. Therefore the begining set up of Samus telling a story doesn't even relate to this quote. The intent is obvious that Zero Mission is a retelling of the Metroid (the "original mission" from the game creator's standpoint).

"So if we were to say it was a completely new game we wouldn't be entirely off-base."

Your taking this quote out of context. At this point it time, MZM had been unveiled as a remake. The director is simply saying that while it is a remake of Metroid, there is a bunch of new gameplay concepts in the game, and that it can be a new playing expereince even for Metroid Vets. In fact, this even discredits your evidence by showing that the maps of MZM were diliberately changed for the remake.

"Metroid: Zero Mission begins right where the original Metroid game opened, as Samus Aran infiltrates Mother Brain's massive complex below the surface of planet Zebes."

This quote automatically disproves your theory. MZM cannot be a prequel if it starts at the exact same point (spacially and timewise) as Metroid.

All these quotes can be turned to support your theory, but that goes against their obvious intent. I could say "MZM is a remake of Metroid," and you could reply, "It means that MZM remakes Metroid's place in the series by making it the second game in the timeline. That statment actually supports my theory," but that's obviously not my intent. And that is really what you are doing with a lot of these quotes from Nintendo.

Besides, think of the PR side. If this was really a different story that Metroid, wouldn't Nintendo's PR state clearly and obviously that it is a different story istead of using language that refers specifically to the NES game when a reference to the Metroid Series as a whole would do; giving a "reworked version of the events"; and the like?

Finally, the Tourian area in Super Metroid is meant more as an nice suprise for Metroid players than anything else. Its suposed to be there so people who played Metroid will go, "hey there is Tourian from Metroid!" Even though it isn't perfect, the fact is that Zero Mission is incorporating the aspects of 1st Tourian. By creating the secret niche below Mother Brain in both MZM and SM, the designers are showing the goal of continuty between the two.

As others have said, when a game is 90% similar to another game, and the creators say it is a remake, and the 10% difference can be accounted as intential from statments by the creators, the game is most likely a remake, despite small map incositancies.

That probably won't make you change your mind, but I thought I'd add my comments nonetheless.

[CaptHayfever]

^^^No, they won't. They very highly frown upon taking random people's theories, no matter how much or how little sense they make.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

[Glyph Phoenix]

I PM'ed Dai Grepher to help me with some hideous unlogic but it would appear that he actually believes what he says, and that he's doing the right thing here by debating (y'know, rather than thinking about it and realizing how incredibly wrong he is).

[Dai Grepher]

darkintention: First, Dai, that was some pretty in depth map work there. I can see how, given only the in game maps, the Tourians don't line up and why that might lead it to seem that Zero Mission and Metroid are not the same thing.

Dai Grepher: Thank you.

darkintention: But there's more to timeline placement maps. You have to take in artistic intent. And the artistic intent of Zero Mission was to update Metroid. The intent was to change the map, add new mini-bosses, upgrade Kraid and Ridley to there more formidable Super Metroid forms, and to add an extended area after the original game.

Dai Grepher: I know that, and I have said that I wouldn't expect the game to be the same structure in every case. However, it must be consistent with that which is seen in the game's sequel. The only area that they had to make consistent was Tourian's Mother Brain room. Since they made it to be similar opposites then I think that is proof enough that they did not intend for Zero Mission to replace Metroid, since Metroid is still the most accurate telling of events. IF they remake Super Metroid to fit Zero Mission, then I would say that Zero Mission is a remake.

darkintention: The quotes you brought up support this argument, not your own.

"[We wanted to]...retell the story of Samus' original mission."

As said, you cannot retell something that hasn't already been told. While you counter that Samus is retelling a mission we have not heard, it is not Samus saying it is a retelling. Sakamoto and his team is doing the retelling in this quote.

Dai Grepher: Possible, but still possible for him to be referring to the game that is retelling the mission. Considering the proof that I presented from the games and the Zero Mission box, it is more likely that he is talking about Samus retelling the mission with the game itself. After all, he did begin by say that they wanted to return to the roots of Metroid gameplay, and that was by using the game to portray that experience. Plus, he said that it would retell Samus' original mission, which could mean her first mission, not Metroid. If he were referring to Metroid then I think he would have said so.

darkintention: Therefore the begining set up of Samus telling a story doesn't even relate to this quote. The intent is obvious that Zero Mission is a retelling of the Metroid (the "original mission" from the game creator's standpoint).

Dai Grepher: The "original mission" could be her first mission, not Metroid.

darkintention: "So if we were to say it was a completely new game we wouldn't be entirely off-base."

Your taking this quote out of context. At this point it time, MZM had been unveiled as a remake. The director is simply saying that while it is a remake of Metroid, there is a bunch of new gameplay concepts in the game, and that it can be a new playing expereince even for Metroid Vets. In fact, this even discredits your evidence by showing that the maps of MZM were diliberately changed for the remake.

Dai Grepher: Now you are putting words in his mouth. What he said does not imply that at all, but actually the opposite. He was referring to the gameplay style of Metroid. Zero Mission did in fact copy Metroid's gameplay style, but was made different enough to be considered a new style all its own, a completely different game.
This says nothing about the maps or the supposed intention of a remake. You seem to be making things up now.

darkintention: "Metroid: Zero Mission begins right where the original Metroid game opened, as Samus Aran infiltrates Mother Brain's massive complex below the surface of planet Zebes."

This quote automatically disproves your theory. MZM cannot be a prequel if it starts at the exact same point (spacially and timewise) as Metroid.

Dai Grepher: The original opened with the storyline. That storyline refers to prior missions! Zero Mission begins where the original opened with past missions. That is why they intentionally added the quote that states Zero Mission is Samus' first adventure. In addition they also retold the story of Metroid in the Zero Mission manual, which may have also been what Sakamoto was referring to, in order to prove that Zero Mission comes before Metroid. It clearly states that Metroid had prior missions, and Zero Mission states that it was the very first.

darkintention: All these quotes can be turned to support your theory, but that goes against their obvious intent. I could say "MZM is a remake of Metroid," and you could reply, "It means that MZM remakes Metroid's place in the series by making it the second game in the timeline. That statment actually supports my theory," but that's obviously not my intent. And that is really what you are doing with a lot of these quotes from Nintendo.

Dai Grepher: I say the same thing about you and some of the others here. You are the one twisting quotes, or ignoring them in order to suit your theory.

darkintention: Besides, think of the PR side. If this was really a different story that Metroid, wouldn't Nintendo's PR state clearly and obviously that it is a different story istead of using language that refers specifically to the NES game when a reference to the Metroid Series as a whole would do; giving a "reworked version of the events"; and the like?

Dai Grepher: They may think that they have been clear enough. It is obvious just by playing the games that they are different missions. If it really is a remake, then why didn't Sakamoto call it that, and why are the Nitnendo representatives now stating that it is a different game?

darkintention: Finally, the Tourian area in Super Metroid is meant more as an nice suprise for Metroid players than anything else. Its suposed to be there so people who played Metroid will go, "hey there is Tourian from Metroid!" Even though it isn't perfect, the fact is that Zero Mission is incorporating the aspects of 1st Tourian. By creating the secret niche below Mother Brain in both MZM and SM, the designers are showing the goal of continuty between the two.

Dai Grepher: That is how they are showing the major differences! That area beneath the brain pod is undamaged, and they made it that way to show that it is not the one in Super Metroid, which appears to be as damaged as the rest of the chamber.
http://img203.echo.cx/img203/9697/da...parison9yh.png
As you can see, the image to the left shows a firm structure, while the one on the right shows a damaged one. If Zero Mission replaces Metroid, then we should find Tourain exactly how we left it. You can’t say that while designing this the creators didn’t stop to think about how it wouldn’t match up with what is seen in Super Metroid. The differences are far too great for this to be a remake, no matter what anyone says to the contrary.
The Tourian in Super Metroid was not there as a surprise, it was there to establish continuity in the series, and create a path from Crateria to Brinstar, as well as reuse the same escape path as before.

darkintention: As others have said, when a game is 90% similar to another game, and the creators say it is a remake, and the 10% difference can be accounted as intential from statments by the creators, the game is most likely a remake, despite small map incositancies.

Dai Grepher: The game is only about 5% similar to Metroid, and that is because of the basic storyline elements that exist between every game. The creators never said that it was a remake. The director said that it was based on the original’s gameplay. The differences are far too great, and have never been addressed by the creators at all. These inconsistencies are astronomical. To make anything less of them is to deny the facts.
http://img203.echo.cx/img203/518/des...rainpod5js.png
Look at this comparison and see if you can still honestly say that the differences are minor. I challenge you to ask someone that you know if those two images are similar or different and listen to what they say. Obviously what suit Samus is wearing makes no difference, but ask them about the surroundings and see what they tell you. I am sure the answer won’t be that they are similar. The brain pod is completely obliterated and nothing but a pile of rubble, but in Super Metroid the pod is still there, along with the equipment and even the glass. You cannot argue against these facts.

darkintention: That probably won't make you change your mind, but I thought I'd add my comments nonetheless.

Dai Grepher: Thank you for your input.

[Chunky Kong12345]

Can we do Euthanasia to him?

[Cysma]

By Dai's logic, the Gamecube version of Resident Evil would be an entirely different game in the timeline than Resident Evil when it first came out on Playstation.

On the Gamecube, the graphics are redone from the ground up, pre-rendered environments and all. Many areas were also changed in appearance and design as well.
For example, when you leave the mansion for the first time in the original, you pass through a wooded courtyard in order to reach the Residence. When you first leave in the Gamecube version, you must pass through a graveyard and into a humble cabin. These locations were never in the original game.
Also, when you first come to the cabin, you will encounter a hideous, invincible monster unlike anything you've seen before. From then on, you'll read files and letters about the doomed Trevor family and encounter that beast twice more.

Zombies you shoot down in Resident Evil will only be permanently eliminated if you burn them or blow off their head, otherwise they'd get back up some time later. What didn't happen in the original version was that zombies that finally reanimate become known as Crimson Heads, which are much faster and stronger than before.

These are some of many differences in structure, story, and gameplay that is being used for this debate. This would mean that the Gamecube Resident Evil would be a sequel to the Playstation version, even though they take place in the exact same mansion, which may explode at the end.

I have many more plot points that would make it seem that way if anyone would be interested.

[Codiekitty]

By Dai's logic Final Fantasy: Dawn of Souls and Metal Gear Solid: Twin Snakes aren't remakes. Basically, by Dai's logic there is no such thing as a remake.


Where are these lemmings going? The Super Nintendo Super Shire! Hop in line and follow them there!

[Alucard]

Originally posted by Dai Grepher:
IF they remake Super Metroid to fit Zero Mission, then I would say that Zero Mission is a remake.

There is you major problem right there. They remade Metroid to fit Super Metroid and called it Zero mission!!! they won't turn around and remake SM to fit somthing that they made to fit it.


Read about Enhanced Remakes, Metroid: Zero Mission, and the Metroid Series, in general

[ July 08, 2005, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Lycos ]

[Dai Grepher]

Well what do you know. Wikipedia agrees with me now.

[ July 08, 2005, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: Dai Grepher ]

[Alucard]

What do you mean?

[Beam Yosho the Drunkard]

Originally posted by Lycos:
What do you mean?

Check the Zero Mission section.

....And according to the Enhanced Remakes area, Zero Mission is a remake.

So it seems Wikipedia condradicted it's self.

...Honestly, does it really make that much of a difference in the story line if the game was a remake/prequel?

[ July 08, 2005, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Beam Yosho the Drunkard ]

[Dai Grepher]

Hang on, I have to convince this one guy before any truthful information can last on those pages.