Attention: Evidence that Zero Mission cannot possibly be Metroid 1's remake!

[Dai Grepher]

Planet Zebes... I called this place home once, in peaceful times, long before evil haunted the caverns below. Now, I shall finally tell the tale of my first battle here... My so-called Zero Mission.
-Samus Aran-

Dai Grepher: The above makes it obvious that this mission is not Metroid 1, because the report for Metroid one has already been told, to us and to the Federation. Samus says that she would fianlly tell the tale of her first battle on Zebes, meaning that she never had before this. This means that Zero Mission is not Metroid 1's remake.

[ June 05, 2005, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Dai Grepher ]

[Beam Yosho the Drunkard]

Who said that her first battle on Zebes wasn't Metroid 1's?

You're really over-examining things. After all, the Bonus Disc in MP2 HAD the timeline in it. And apparently, you said that Nintendo wasn't a credible source, despite the fact THEY made the games. So what makes you think that YOU are the correct person here?

[ June 03, 2005, 03:18 AM: Message edited by: Beam Yosho the Drunkard ]

[The Missing Link]

Trite. Presumptive. Incorrect.

In short, nobody cares.


"There are some who call me... Link?"
"Carpe Gaium Domesticum!" (Seize the Cucco!)
Zelda: The Grand Adventures | Triforce MUCK
ザ行方不明リンク
悪いユウモアの賢人

[Koga]

You lose.

[DELICIOUS POISON]

Your opinion is still invalid, seeing how you just simply don't count as a person.

You might be able to find work as a doorstop somewhere.

[Dai Grepher]

Beam Yosho the Drunkard: Who said that her first battle on Zebes wasn't Metroid 1's?

Dai Grepher: I did, and that is because Zero Mission does.

Beam Yosho the Drunkard: You're really over-examining things. After all, the Bonus Disc in MP2 HAD the timeline in it. And apparently, you said that Nintendo wasn't a credible source, despite the fact THEY made the games. So what makes you think that YOU are the correct person here?

Dai Grepher: I believe that I am correct because I am actually using what the games say, rather than what a few workers at Nintendo think. The games and manuals are the only canon sources. The quote that I posted is proof that Samus' first mission on Zebes had not been told until after Metroid 1's mission was presented. This proves that they are not the same missions or stories.

Also, Kraid is enormous in Zero Mission, while in Metroid 1 he is only a bit larger than Samus. Zero Mission also lacks a Fake Kraid, and the structure of Zebes is different in the two games. The enemies are different, the weapons are different, and the power-ups are different.

The Crozo Statues appear everywhere, and function to serve the purpose of guiding Samus. This was not so in Metroid 1. Before Metroid 1 the statues worked because there had been no self-destruct bomb to disable them yet. After Zero Mission the statues stopped working, which leads into Metroid 1. The Metroids also existed on Zebes prior to the Space Pirates capturing the dormant Metroid in Metroid 1's manual. The Crozo statues can been found on SR-388, which means that the ancient Crozo had traveled to SR-388, and may have actually brought some of the Metroids back with them to Zebes to learn from them.

There are far too many differences, and there is evidence written and displayed in the manuals and games that prove they are not the same, and that Zero Mission is not a remake.

[Beam Yosho the Drunkard]

So you were expecting a Large Kraid on the NES?

Moving Statues on the NES?

Let's be honest here; The NES had some pretty outdated technology. You honestly think they could've implimented ALL of that on the NES?

It's a remake because it makes more sense than the Original Metroid.

And we already know the Chozo were on SR-388. If anything, they created the Metroids. (Look in the Fusion Manual. It says that "Metroid" is Chozo for "Warrior." Odd sounding, yes, but does show proof they knew about them for some time.

[The Missing Link]

Now, I shall finally tell the tale of my first battle here... My so-called Zero Mission.
-Samus Aran-


Or...

Now, [for the first time] I shall finally tell the tale of my first battle here [in its entirety]... My so-called Zero Mission.
-Samus Aran-

Lots of grey-space to interpret the exact meaning. Lots of wiggle-room in the wording. Perhaps this is because she never wished to tell others about how badly she muffed up when her ship got wrecked. Honestly, were I a bounty hunter of great fame, I wouldn't want people to know that either.

Of course, this is all nonsense when you think about it in another sense. Samus isn't a person in the real world. Metroid is a game in our own world of Earth. Samus knows absolutely nothing that the story of Metroid has been revealed to the people of Earth because... she's not on Earth. She's a fictional character in a game. To say that THIS holds any weight that the two games are not the same game based upon the words "now" and "finally" is rather deus ex machina. Simply put, using evidence from the fictional world of Samus and applying it to the introduction of stories in an Earth-sense is absolute bull anyways.


"There are some who call me... Link?"
"Carpe Gaium Domesticum!" (Seize the Cucco!)
Zelda: The Grand Adventures | Triforce MUCK
ザ行方不明リンク
悪いユウモアの賢人

[ June 03, 2005, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: The Missing Link ]

[Daos]

Your argument is flawed because you are flawed.

Have a nice day.

[Dai Grepher]

Beam Yosho the Drunkard: So you were expecting a Large Kraid on the NES?

Moving Statues on the NES?

Dai Grepher: No, because in Metroid 1, Kraid was smaller and the statues were disabled.

Beam Yosho the Drunkard: Let's be honest here; The NES had some pretty outdated technology. You honestly think they could've implimented ALL of that on the NES?

Dai Grepher: They could have if they wanted to. Ninja Gaiden had Ryu Hayabusa fight quite a few giant monsters and enemies. Granted, Ninja Gaiden didn’t have a save feature, but if the creators of Metroid 1 wanted to use a large Kraid, then they could have created still sprites in the form of a large Kraid, then used a few moving sprites as the eyes, mouth, and claws.
Also remember that Super Metroid featured a Fake Kraid that was small, while Zero Mission did not. A Fake Kraid would have served to communicate the notion that Zero was M1’s remake.

Beam Yosho the Drunkard: It's a remake because it makes more sense than the Original Metroid.

Dai Grepher: The benefits of increased text display and detailed storyline have nothing to do with this issue. The content of the storyline is all that matters.

Beam Yosho the Drunkard: And we already know the Chozo were on SR-388. If anything, they created the Metroids. (Look in the Fusion Manual. It says that "Metroid" is Chozo for "Warrior." Odd sounding, yes, but does show proof they knew about them for some time.

Dai Grepher: My point exactly. Given this fact, I can conclude that the Metroids may have existed on Zebes before Metroid 1. This allows Zero to take place before M1, since it gives Zero Mission its own backstory as to how the Metroids came to exist within the Tourain area.

The Missing Link:

Now, I shall finally tell the tale of my first battle here... My so-called Zero Mission.
-Samus Aran-


Or...

Now, [for the first time] I shall finally tell the tale of my first battle here [in its entirety]... My so-called Zero Mission.
-Samus Aran-

Lots of grey-space to interpret the exact meaning. Lots of wiggle-room in the wording.

Dai Grepher: I do not believe “…” can be interpreted to mean “in its entirety”. This statement is not open to interpretation. It is very clear and direct. She has not yet told the tale of her first battle on Zebes, and this came after Metroid 1, 2, and 3.

The Missing Link: Perhaps this is because she never wished to tell others about how badly she muffed up when her ship got wrecked. Honestly, were I a bounty hunter of great fame, I wouldn't want people to know that either.

Dai Grepher: The destruction of her ship was not her fault. She was outnumbered and outgunned. A report stating that she survived the crash, infiltrated the Space Pirate ship without her suit, evaded the pirates, recovered her suit from the ruins, and then laid siege on the ship destroying Mecha Ridley and the ship after escaping in a pirate space craft, is far more beneficial to her merit.
Also, if you believe so strongly that Zero Mission is the mission of Metroid 1 in its entirety, hence the new storyline, enemies, and power-ups, then why doesn’t this complete re-telling cover the existence of Fake Kraid? What about the backstory of the pirates stealing the dormant Metroid and exposing it to bata rays? That has been omitted as well.

The Missing Link: Of course, this is all nonsense when you think about it in another sense. Samus isn't a person in the real world. Metroid is a game in our own world of Earth. Samus knows absolutely nothing that the story of Metroid has been revealed to the people of Earth because... she's not on Earth.

Dai Grepher: When I say that the story has been told to other people I mean others within the Metroid universe, not the real world. She had long since reported her mission to the Federation by the time her reminiscence of Zero Mission takes place.

The Missing Link: She's a fictional character in a game. To say that THIS holds any weight that the two games are not the same game based upon the words "now" and "finally" is rather deus ex machina. Simply put, using evidence from the fictional world of Samus and applying it to the introduction of stories in an Earth-sense is absolute bull anyways.

Dai Grepher: That is not what I was saying at all. The fact is that Samus is telling this story to someone. While I agree it is not to the actual player, I believe it is to someone within the game universe.


I also forgot to mention that I am replaying Zero Mission, and am exploring the caverns of Crateria and Tourain after the explosion. I believe I have found something of great importance here, something that may irrefutably prove that Zero Mission is not Metroid 1, and make my theory a fact. If my theory is correct, I will take screenshots and post them here as evidence. More to come later.

[ June 04, 2005, 01:36 AM: Message edited by: Dai Grepher ]

[The Missing Link]

I'm just going to reply to the comments to mine.

In order:

1) Your opinion doesn't constitute as proof.
2a) So? It's not in the story; you're making a qualifying assumption, which means your theory can't be extrapolated to be universal truthhood.
2b) Just because I rip out a few pages out of Shakespeare and make a new play out of what's left doesn't make it a new play.
3) Can't prove it since you don't know what happened. The game ends before the report is made, so you can't say that a report was made.
4) Opinion. Can't be proven.

So, let's review:

No proof + no proof + no proof + no proof = no proof.

In short:



"There are some who call me... Link?"
"Carpe Gaium Domesticum!" (Seize the Cucco!)
Zelda: The Grand Adventures | Triforce MUCK
ザ行方不明リンク
悪いユウモアの賢人

[Dai Grepher]

Dai Grepher: 1. That was not my opinion. It was your opinion that Samus meant to say that that she would be telling the complete tale of her first battle on Zebes, which you assume is Metroid 1. This was your opinion and you had no proof to support this. I replied with fact, not opinion. The statement only means one thing. You could only make it mean something else by adding your own words to it.
2. A) It not being in the story is proof that it is not the same story. You have failed to explain the omissions of key story elements.
2. B) Actually, yes, if you do rip a few pages out of Shakespeare and make a new play out of what's left, then it does make it a new play. You should rethink your possition. Nintendo did not only discard storyline, but they also added more. This makes it a new story.
3. Metroid 2 and Super Metroid prove that Samus has told of her Metroid 1 mission.
4. Cannot be proven? She is telling someone of her mission in Zero Mission and Super Metroid. That is why we see words on the screens before we actually play as Samus.

I get the impression that you are only taking this stance because you wish to argue with me. You have not provided any in game evidence to support your claim.

[Beam Yosho the Drunkard]

Metroid = Made in 86.

Ninja Gaiden = Made in 89.

Metroid was made while the NES was still taking it's baby steps. Most of the games in that year did have have the same amount of quality as Gaiden here. So that statement = shot down.


And Nintendo has this trend of re-making old, classic games. So what makes you think they wouldn't do THIS?

Oh, and there's the fact of the actual time-line from Nintendo it's self. Of course, you're being too thick-headed and pridful that you just can't accept something as simple as this.

[The Missing Link]

1. You began your statement with the words, "I do not believe...." That immediately the entire rest of the sentence as your own opinion and as such cannot be used to shoot down another potential theory. Opinions can be used as support of another theory, but cannot be used to disprove another theory.

2a) My "failure" to explain the key differences of the games is no greater than your "failure" to explain the key similarities of the game. When 90% of the game plot and maps are identical to a source game, that 90% explanation easily trumps a 10% difference. After all, look at the variations in the story Cinderella; there are no less than nine distinct versions of the tale, but they all have a common plot, a common origin, and thus a common title.

2b) It does not change the fact that it is Shakespeare's own work rather than my work. But you're thinking about it backwards. Let's imagine that Zero Mission is the complete story; a story that tears out only a few pages of the story and represents it is inevitably the same source story. But counterintuitively, a story that adds pages into a source story does not change where that story is originally from; rather, it becomes two sources that conflict with one another but still point to a common story. If that weren't true, then you could easily say that the first four books of the Bible, none of which agree completely about Jesus' life and cruxifiction, were all different stories... and that that guy was cruxified four times. No, my analogy has merit.

3) Fault assumption. You are correct to a degree, though: Super Metroid proves that Samus has told about, according to the SM text, "battl[ing] the Metroids on Planet Zebes. It was there that I foiled the plans of the Space Pirate leader Mother Brain to use the creatures to attack galactic civilization..." That is all of the game evidence you have. You're using deus ex machina to say that since Metroid 1 was the only game with such a plot to come BEFORE Super Metroid that that game must be the story that she has referred to here, and that is not necessarily the case. Both Metroid 1 and Zero Mission are valid candidates to meet the specific in-game quote; thus, timeline-wise they are interchangeable. However because the plot is 90% the same, one could easily argue that, storywise, Metroid 1 is an abridged version of Zero Mission. In short, the in-game text does not decry that "The game Metroid already happened." It merely suggests that a part of the plot of Metroid 1 happened, and since that is paralleled elsewhere, the possibility of it being a retelling of the same tale clearly is a possibility if not probability.

4) Again, see #3. That statement doesn't prove that it ONLY refers to Zero Mission. If you even get PICKY, Super Metroid borrows the graphics from the original Metroid game in that detail (albeit black and white); as such, it merely strengthens the argument that she is specifically referring to Metroid 1 rather than Zero Mission, but since Zero Mission comes first, well... they might just be the same game.

I get the impression that you are only taking this stance because you wish to argue with me. You have not provided any in game evidence to support your claim.

I get the feeling that you're either an idiot or just some guy who like to bash people on the head with clubs like they did in the caveman days, but my opinion is completely irrelevant. You obviously don't understand the word "proof." You hardly understand the word "evidence." Simply put, while you write like a high school student, you have all of the debating skills of a 7th grader, completely unaware of what this logic thing is but still pretending to know about it. Of course, I'd be more than happy to teach you how.

Needless to say, I don't have to provide in-game evidence. The burden of proof is on the one saying it-must-be; the burden of proof is never on the one saying it-might-not. And I can easily prove that if you'd like, but until the next time you make an asanine remark that shows your idiocy, I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader. [img]smile.gif[/img]


"There are some who call me... Link?"
"Carpe Gaium Domesticum!" (Seize the Cucco!)
Zelda: The Grand Adventures | Triforce MUCK
ザ行方不明リンク
悪いユウモアの賢人

[Masamune]

You're all wrong. Zero Mission is a new game, just like ALttP on GBA and Link's Awakening DX. And so is Super Mario Advance 1-4, they are definitely not SMB2, 3, World, and Yoshi's island remade. Honestly, everyone here is stupid.</sarcasm>

[Koga]

The statement only means one thing.

You obviously have very little understanding if you think a statement can only mean one thing. Language is very ambiguous and almost all sentences can be interpreted in more than one way.

A favourite example of mine is 'Time flies like an arrow'. It seems a very straightforward simily, but an electronic parser found 5 different interpretations for it. I can give them to you if you like.

[DELICIOUS POISON]

Delusion.

[Dai Grepher]

First, I will reply to the last posts. Then I will present the "smoking gun".

Beam Yosho the Drunkard: Metroid = Made in 86.

Ninja Gaiden = Made in 89.

Metroid was made while the NES was still taking it's baby steps. Most of the games in that year did have have the same amount of quality as Gaiden here. So that statement = shot down.

Dai Grepher: Incorrect. Metroid was an advanced game that used innovative techniques to present a quality experience. Bank Switching and the password system are two that come to mind instantly. If they wanted Kraid to be large, then he would have been large. He was small in the manual art as well, which had no limitations to speak of. Super Metroid also shows a Fake Kraid that is about the same size as Samus. This proves that Kraids do come in smaller forms.

Beam Yosho the Drunkard: And Nintendo has this trend of re-making old, classic games. So what makes you think they wouldn't do THIS?

Dai Grepher: Re-making is one thing. The Zelda for Gameboy Advance is a re-make because it has the same story and structure with slightly different text alterations. Zero Mission is a completely different story that does not carry over key storyline elements from 1.

Beam Yosho the Drunkard: Oh, and there's the fact of the actual time-line from Nintendo it's self. Of course, you're being too thick-headed and pridful that you just can't accept something as simple as this.

Dai Grepher: Fans do not accept Nintendo's timeline on Zelda because they have been wrong about it countless times. Therefore, they are not credible in any series. The only sources are the games and their manuals.

The Missing Link: 1. You began your statement with the words, "I do not believe...." That immediately the entire rest of the sentence as your own opinion and as such cannot be used to shoot down another potential theory.

Dai Grepher: Yours was not a theory, it was an opinion. No, it was a mistake. You said that the phrase meant something else because of the words that you added to it. This makes it an opinion. My opinion was applied to your misconception that the phrase meant something other than what it clearly states, not the statement itself.

The Missing Link: 2a) My "failure" to explain the key differences of the games is no greater than your "failure" to explain the key similarities of the game. When 90% of the game plot and maps are identical to a source game, that 90% explanation easily trumps a 10% difference.

Dai Grepher: Very well. The similarities that you speak of are not as great as you have implied. The story of Metroid 1 states that the pirates stole the Metroid sample and took it to Zebes in order to create a Metroid army. Zero Mission states this as well, but it is not clear as to what game it is referring to. The Zero Mission manual is referring to Metroid 1, with the in-game text being the prologue to Zero Mission. That text only says that Samus is to exterminate the Metroid threat on Zebes and defeat the Mother Brain. In Zero Mission, the Space Pirates could not control the Metroids, which is why there are corpses all over Tourain. In Metroid 1 the Space Pirates knew how to breed and control them because of what they found in the space station. So the manual only uses the story of Metroid 1 as a basis for Zero to be a prequel. In Zero Mission the Metroids inhabited Zebes. Metroid II shows that the Chozo had been to SR-388, so it is likely that the Chozo brought the Metroids back to Zebes.
Are there any other similarities? I cannot recall any others.

The Missing Link: 2b) It does not change the fact that it is Shakespeare's own work rather than my work. But you're thinking about it backwards. Let's imagine that Zero Mission is the complete story; a story that tears out only a few pages of the story and represents it is inevitably the same source story. But counterintuitively, a story that adds pages into a source story does not change where that story is originally from; rather, it becomes two sources that conflict with one another but still point to a common story. No, my analogy has merit.

Dai Grepher: No it does not. Zero Mission leaves story out and adds much more. It is a different story.

The Missing Link: 3) Fault assumption. You are correct to a degree, though: Super Metroid proves that Samus has told about, according to the SM text, "battl[ing] the Metroids on Planet Zebes. It was there that I foiled the plans of the Space Pirate leader Mother Brain to use the creatures to attack galactic civilization..." That is all of the game evidence you have. You're using deus ex machina to say that since Metroid 1 was the only game with such a plot to come BEFORE Super Metroid that that game must be the story that she has referred to here, and that is not necessarily the case. Both Metroid 1 and Zero Mission are valid candidates to meet the specific in-game quote; thus, timeline-wise they are interchangeable.

Dai Grepher: No, I am saying that her telling of her first battle comes after the telling of Metroid 1's battle, which means Metroid 1 is not the battle she is telling in Zero Mission. If it were then her statement would not make sense. She is finally telling the tale of her first battle on Zebes, so if that battle were the one told in Super Metroid, then it has already been told not being told for the first time.

The Missing Link: However because the plot is 90% the same, one could easily argue that, storywise, Metroid 1 is an abridged version of Zero Mission. In short, the in-game text does not decry that "The game Metroid already happened." It merely suggests that a part of the plot of Metroid 1 happened, and since that is paralleled elsewhere, the possibility of it being a retelling of the same tale clearly is a possibility if not probability.

Dai Grepher: You are clouding the issue. The point is that the story of Metroid 1 has been told before the first telling of the first battle. This means that Metroid 1 is not the first battle.

[quote]The Missing Link: 4) Again, see #3. That statement doesn't prove that it ONLY refers to Zero Mission. If you even get PICKY, Super Metroid borrows the graphics from the original Metroid game in that detail (albeit black and white); as such, it merely strengthens the argument that she is specifically referring to Metroid 1 rather than Zero Mission, but since Zero Mission comes first, well... they might just be the same game.

Dai Grepher: You are confused. Number 4 was in reply to Samus telling someone of her adventures.

[qb]The Missing Link: I get the feeling that you're either an idiot or just some guy who like to bash people on the head with clubs like they did in the caveman days, but my opinion is completely irrelevant. You obviously don't understand the word "proof." You hardly understand the word "evidence." Simply put, while you write like a high school student, you have all of the debating skills of a 7th grader, completely unaware of what this logic thing is but still pretending to know about it. Of course, I'd be more than happy to teach you how.

Dai Grepher: No thank you. I will consult your expertise should I even need to solve a complex mathematical equation, but I believe my experience in debating and presentation of evidence will suffice for this topic. In fact, I believe that my next presentation of evidence will be so convincing that you will change your position on the issue and believe as I do.

The Missing Link: Needless to say, I don't have to provide in-game evidence. The burden of proof is on the one saying it-must-be; the burden of proof is never on the one saying it-might-not. And I can easily prove that if you'd like, but until the next time you make an asanine remark that shows your idiocy, I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

Dai Grepher: Please, there is no need to be insulting. You are required to provide evidence contrary to mine because mine clearly shows that Samus is telling someone of her first battle on Zebes for the first time after a point in time when she has already told the tale of Metroid 1.

Koga: You obviously have very little understanding if you think a statement can only mean one thing. Language is very ambiguous and almost all sentences can be interpreted in more than one way.

Dai Grepher: I understand that some things can be interpreted to mean different things, but I only said that the statement I provided could not be interpreted any other way.

Now that I have replied to the last posts, I will now present evidence that will prove Zero Mission is not and cannot be a re-make or re-telling of Metroid 1. I will need to make more than one post because I have images from the games as well as maps that I have pieced together. The number exceeds the limit of pictures per post.

Zero Mission Zebes Structure:
First I must establish the structure of Zebes in Zero Mission’s time frame so that I may compare it to the structure in Super Metroid.


This is the starting point in Zero Mission and Metroid, as well as the bottom of the Crateria to Brinstar elevator in Super Metroid.


Below this point is a Morphing Ball Launcher designed by the Chozo to propell a morphed warrior upward with the same energy as the Speed Booster Jump. This image shows that Samus is flying up the shaft where the elevator will be placed in the Super Metroid time frame.


This is the top of the shaft, in Crateria. YOU MUST SUCCUMB TO A.I. may find this amusing, but when I reached the top of this shaft this made me get my hopes up prematurely because I believed I had reached the damaged area of Tourain from Super Metroid, only before it was built. Traveling to the next rooms showed me where I truely was however. This is just below the surface on the same level as the room with the Chozo statue that Samus fights for the Bombs in Super Metroid.


Again, to show the exact location of this area I have made a comparison image.


This comparison shows that there is no door at the bottom of the cravern like there is in Super Metroid.


Instead, the elevator is to the left of the last picture's area. Also note that the top of the elevator is on the same level as the door is in Super Metroid.


This image shows the comparison between the brain pod after it was destroyed in Zero Mission as to how it looks in Super Metroid.

Please do not reply until I have finished.
More soon...

[thunt]

Having Samus in the same pose does not mean similar.

[Codiekitty]

I wanna hear what you have to say about Final Fantasy vs. Final Fantasy: Dawn of Souls.


Where are these lemmings going? The Super Nintendo Super Shire! Hop in line and follow them there!