Microsoft bans up to 1 million Xbox Live users

[Valigarmander]

Microsoft Responds to Possible Class Action Suit Over XBL Bans

There's still a little fallout burbling over Microsoft's large wave of Xbox Live bans about two weeks ago, and at least one law firm smells the possibility of squeezing money out of it. Abington IP has announced that they're considering filing a class action lawsuit against Microsoft, and are urging those who were recently banned to contact the firm about joining the potential suit. Microsoft, meanwhile, has responded that they can ban pirates and modified consoles as much as they please.

"Piracy is illegal and modifying an Xbox 360 is a violation of the Xbox Live Terms of Use," a spokesman said to Financial Post (via Kotaku). "Microsoft is well within its legal rights to ban these users from Xbox Live."

Some media reports initially suggested that bans totaled as high as between 600,000 and 1 million consoles, but Microsoft denied the upper level of those numbers. "I cannot explain to you why people would think it was a million people. It wasn't a million people," said Xbox Live general manager Marc Whitten.

It certainly looks like Microsoft is in legal clearing here, but whether that affects Abington IP's decision to go ahead with their suit remains to be seen.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

Originally Posted by Lurch1982

I would have pegged it as a 20-30% failure rate on units bought at retail.

That still isn't good. That means about one in four systems could be a pain in the ass.

Originally Posted by Article

So it looks like we'll never know exactly how many users were recently banned, but we know at least that it was less than 1 million pirates and/or verbal harassers.

So now it could have been 999,999 "pirates" and "verbal harassers" (aka, trash talkers)? Great, Microsoft wants to impede upon freedom of speech as well, just because we click "I Agree." I hope that lawsuit tears a good chunk out of them.

Oh yeah. After much freezing as of late, my friend's 360 had a flashing red ring. It was turned off and on, was still there, and once more he turned it off and on, at which time the ring disappeared. I think the damn thing is dying and he's thinking about selling it.

54.2 sounds about right to me now for sure, because I don't think he hit the lottery here. He said he bought it new at retail about a year ago. Around Thanksgiving I believe. And the problem occurred just less a few days ago.

[I am nobody]

Originally Posted by I REALLY HATE POKEMON!

So now it could have been 999,999 "pirates" and "verbal harassers" (aka, trash talkers)? Great, Microsoft wants to impede upon freedom of speech as well, just because we click "I Agree." I hope that lawsuit tears a good chunk out of them.

Verbal Harassers probably only refers to people who have been reported a certain number of times. Mircosoft likes customers, and banning everyone who has ever trash talked someone else on XBL would leave them with 6 users.

Anyway, there's no law preventing ToSs from restricting what can be said over the service. (if you'd read it, you'd notice VGF actually has a post content restriction) You can support the lawsuit all you want, but doesn't have much hope in a court.

[Lurch1982]

So now it could have been 999,999 "pirates" and "verbal harassers" (aka, trash talkers)? Great, Microsoft wants to impede upon freedom of speech as well, just because we click "I Agree." I hope that lawsuit tears a good chunk out of them.

Are you dense? Are you retarded or something?

The "million users banned" was a made up metric with absolutely no backing whatsoever. They haven't released figures, and probably won't. It was a huge wave of bans, but I seriously doubt it was that large.

First off, the only mention of people getting booted for verbal harassment was a bad attempt at snark-humor at the end of a 1up article. Second, you have no freedom of speech. The government cannot restrict speech (and the few exceptions are very very limited). Private business, however, can freely limit speech. In this case, it is not only spelled out in the Code of Conduct, it is also further spelled out specifically in the Xbox Live Terms of Use. They have as much right to ban users for verbal harassment as any other service. You can get banned from a message board for violating board codes. If you have a freebe message board or web site, you can get banned for violating the TOS. Its clearly spelled out what you can't do, and they give you numerous chances with the conduct TOS violations before they boot you off (ie: loss of voice for X amount of time, temp. bans, etc).

And yeah, by clicking "I Agree," and this is the thing you're just not getting, YOU AGREE TO THEIR TERMS OF SERVICE. If you don't agree with them, you're free to just not buy an Xbox or use Xbox Live. You're free to go to Sony's setup, where you agree to the same restrictions, or you can go to Nintendo, where you agree to similar/the same restrictions (based on if they ever implement voice chat).

What are you not understanding about this? You agree to the terms before you use the service.

Oh yeah. After much freezing as of late, my friend's 360 had a flashing red ring. It was turned off and on, was still there, and once more he turned it off and on, at which time the ring disappeared. I think the damn thing is dying and he's thinking about selling it.

He said he bought it new at retail about a year ago. Around Thanksgiving I believe. And the problem occurred just less a few days ago.

If he had a red ring issue, tell him to go here:

Xbox NXE Hardware, Xbox LIVE, Games & Media Support | Xbox Support

At tha site, he can set up a repair order. They'll fix it for free. If he bought it last year from first market retail (meaning not used from Gamestop or something), he should still be covered.

[heh]

irhp. evade the censors right here, right now. post the f-word a million times. show your freedom of speech. do it

[Zharen]

Originally Posted by The Bureau

Yeah, the timing was shady. They should've been enforcing it from the beginning.

I agree. I get the whole Terms of Service crap, but enforcing this now after there's been reports of redlining 360 consoles just seems like a PR nightmare.

[Cosmonautical]

Originally Posted by I REALLY HATE POKEMON!

That still isn't good. That means about one in four systems could be a pain in the ass.

I don't recall ever saying anything about that. Misquote.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

Originally Posted by Lurch1982

Are you dense? Are you retarded or something?

Believing the figures I come across on large video gaming news websites is neither dense nor retarded...perhaps one could argue it is lazy, maybe naive, but your words are strong.

Originally Posted by Lurch1982

First off, the only mention of people getting booted for verbal harassment was a bad attempt at snark-humor at the end of a 1up article.

I guess it was a very bad attempt, because I couldn't tell.

Originally Posted by Lurch1982

Second, you have no freedom of speech. The government cannot restrict speech (and the few exceptions are very very limited). Private business, however, can freely limit speech. In this case, it is not only spelled out in the Code of Conduct, it is also further spelled out specifically in the Xbox Live Terms of Use. They have as much right to ban users for verbal harassment as any other service. You can get banned from a message board for violating board codes. If you have a freebe message board or web site, you can get banned for violating the TOS. Its clearly spelled out what you can't do, and they give you numerous chances with the conduct TOS violations before they boot you off (ie: loss of voice for X amount of time, temp. bans, etc).

And yeah, by clicking "I Agree," and this is the thing you're just not getting, YOU AGREE TO THEIR TERMS OF SERVICE. If you don't agree with them, you're free to just not buy an Xbox or use Xbox Live. You're free to go to Sony's setup, where you agree to the same restrictions, or you can go to Nintendo, where you agree to similar/the same restrictions (based on if they ever implement voice chat).

Yes yes, legal mumbo-jumbo.

Originally Posted by Lurch1982

What are you not understanding about this? You agree to the terms before you use the service.

I completely understand, but also completely disagree with the actions taken. You're acting like I'm the only one outraged by this. Tons of fanboys all over have my same disgust in mind. Hell, there's a legal action supposed to be taking action in regard to the situation.

Originally Posted by Lurch1982

If he had a red ring issue, tell him to go here:

Xbox NXE Hardware, Xbox LIVE, Games & Media Support | Xbox Support

At tha site, he can set up a repair order. They'll fix it for free. If he bought it last year from first market retail (meaning not used from Gamestop or something), he should still be covered.

Thanks, Lurch. I lazily Googled a solution for him but came up with nothing. I'll pass it on. =)

^ Sorry about the mix up; I corrected it.

[Lurch1982]

Originally Posted by I REALLY HATE POKEMON!

Yes yes, legal mumbo-jumbo.



I completely understand, but also completely disagree with the actions taken. You're acting like I'm the only one outraged by this. Tons of fanboys all over have my same disgust in mind. Hell, there's a legal action supposed to be taking action in regard to the situation.

Prisons are filled with people who broke the rules and are outraged that they got punished for it.

Filing a lawsuit doesn't give it merit. I can literally go down to the courthouse, fill out the papers and pay a fee to file a lawsuit against someone seeking damages for them being a douchebag. It doesn't mean it has any sort of merit and it doesn't mean that it'll actually survive.

The class action thing on the banning was a feeler notice. The main source is an unknown attorney trying to drum up a class action after reading a news story. It hasn't been filed. He hasn't established a class. He's trying to get people to contact him to see if he does have any sort of case.

IMO he has no case, it won't get out of pretrial motions to dismiss because every single idiot out there that got banned agreed to the terms of use. He'd have a better chance going after Gamestop for selling modded used Xboxes that were previously banned (they don't test, and considering the flood of boxes on the used market they'll get slapped with this next spring).

Let's say you're renting an apartment from me. In the lease, I specifically spell out that you cannot have a dog, cannot alter the apartment (including but not limited to changing the floors, painting the walls, or rewiring the place), and have about a dozen other restrictions. You sign a 12 month lease, you pay on time. I come by and notice that you changed out the carpet for hardwood flooring and painted the walls purple, and you're keeping a golden retriever in the apartment. You broke the terms of the agreement. I have every legal right to boot you out on your ass and keep your deposit.

Its the same basic premise. You agree to abide by their rules concerning the service. It doesn't matter if you don't like their rules. Once you violate something you agreed to, you're basically screwed.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

Originally Posted by Lurch1982

Let's say you're renting an apartment from me. In the lease, I specifically spell out that you cannot have a dog, cannot alter the apartment (including but not limited to changing the floors, painting the walls, or rewiring the place), and have about a dozen other restrictions. You sign a 12 month lease, you pay on time. I come by and notice that you changed out the carpet for hardwood flooring and painted the walls purple, and you're keeping a golden retriever in the apartment. You broke the terms of the agreement. I have every legal right to boot you out on your ass and keep your deposit.

But what if, for safety reason due to my newfound disability, months after the signing of the lease, I change the floors to the safest type, and I acquire a service dog? Despite technically breaking my agreement which I may well have made under duress (also possibly due to my pre-existing mental condition, and circumstances), I have the right to a fair hearing. And so at court I would almost certainly win with the aid of disabled persons organization, and acts, as well as my well payed lawyer.

At the very least, we know I won't be booted out on my ass with you keeping my deposit.

As you well know, an agreement is subject to change under certain circumstances, and a simple click cold very well qualify as certai circumstances. A mere warning cold have sufficed, for example. Fair practice should be employed at all times.

[Lurch1982]

Not really. Fair Housing and the ADA require reasonable accommodations, but also require notification to the landlord (because they pretty much have to provide it in most cases). Almost every lease has a bailout provision for that.

Also, anyone that's ever dealt with a landlord/tenant issue knows the entire system is skewed towards the landlord. Even in the states with the most favorable protection towards the tenants, the landlord has a major advantage.

HOWEVER, with Microsoft vs. modders, there is no bailout provision for it. You agreed to the TOS, you cannot mod the console and expect to keep going onto their service. You cannot violate their rules and expect to keep going onto the service. They haven't broken the Xbox itself (which is nicer than cable/satellite companies, Apple with the iPhone, etc), and the Xbox still functions. It just can't use their online service.

The warning was in the TOS, and the warnings have been the ban sweeps they've done about twice a year since the system was sold. They're not cold-banning people for violating the code of conduct (obscene video, vulgarity, racism, etc). Those people get banned after numerous warnings. They are, however cold-banning modders for doing something THEY KNEW WAS WRONG IN THE FIRST PLACE. There is absolutely no legal leg to stand on, and no real common sense leg to stand on here.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

Originally Posted by Lurch1982

Not really. Fair Housing and the ADA require reasonable accommodations, but also require notification to the landlord (because they pretty much have to provide it in most cases). Almost every lease has a bailout provision for that.

Well, that may be so, but deposits are meant for damage, and alterations generally don't count. Even if they did, adding up the costs to change back if so desired could certainly result in the partial return of ones deposit. *Trying to be petty*

Originally Posted by Lurch1982

They haven't broken the Xbox itself (which is nicer than cable/satellite companies, Apple with the iPhone, etc), and the Xbox still functions. It just can't use their online service.

A temporary ban would have been more palatable, and only following a warning. Granted, it is nicer than a complete bricking.

Originally Posted by Lurch1982

The warning was in the TOS, and the warnings have been the ban sweeps they've done about twice a year since the system was sold. They're not cold-banning people for violating the code of conduct (obscene video, vulgarity, racism, etc). Those people get banned after numerous warnings. They are, however cold-banning modders for doing something THEY KNEW WAS WRONG IN THE FIRST PLACE. There is absolutely no legal leg to stand on, and no real common sense leg to stand on here.

Man, back at the ToS? Really? It is pretty obvious I don't care about the ToS; never have and probably never will. Damn, I bet they didn't force them down your throat as a reminder when you bought online only games.

Trust me, I realize my arguments are being torn down by your cold, legal, and technical counters, but just for a second, look at it from my point of view. Would it hurt to do things the way I think they should be done? Imagine the customer appreciation that would certainly rise from such niceties. It would likely rise by at least 50%, and would certainly quash the way people look at "M$."

[Cosmonautical]

Forgiven. Please don't think I go out of my way to argue with you where-ever you happen to post, I'm not trying to.

As per the argument, you're not getting it, dude. Modded systems = exploits, piracy. Microsoft has a legal obligation to outright ban modded systems. It's unfortunate that anyone's affected by it when they're just into modding for homebrew and the like, but the company has to protect the interests of their paying, law-abiding customers versus pirates and hackers. There has to be a reward for abiding their ToS, and in this instance that reward is Live access. If you've got anyone to be pissed at, it's the mod businesses for avoiding the subject, when Microsoft's got their **** in print and available for you to peruse at your leisure.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

Originally Posted by The Bureau

Forgiven. Please don't think I go out of my way to argue with you where-ever you happen to post, I'm not trying to.

Cool. I know you ain't stalking me. =D

Originally Posted by The Bureau

As per the argument, you're not getting it, dude. Modded systems = exploits, piracy. Microsoft has a legal obligation to outright ban modded systems. It's unfortunate that anyone's affected by it when they're just into modding for homebrew and the like, but the company has to protect the interests of their paying, law-abiding customers versus pirates and hackers. There has to be a reward for abiding their ToS, and in this instance that reward is Live access. If you've got anyone to be pissed at, it's the mod businesses for avoiding the subject, when Microsoft's got their **** in print and available for you to peruse at your leisure.

Hm, true enough, they do have a legal obligation I suppose...Perhaps leniency isn't an option, but I wish it could be.

[Lurch1982]

Originally Posted by I REALLY HATE POKEMON!

Well, that may be so, but deposits are meant for damage, and alterations generally don't count. Even if they did, adding up the costs to change back if so desired could certainly result in the partial return of ones deposit. *Trying to be petty*

LOL WHAT? Never had an apartment I see.

A temporary ban would have been more palatable, and only following a warning. Granted, it is nicer than a complete bricking.

Uh, how would that solve anything? The point of banning modified consoles is so they can't access the network PERIOD. A temp ban works if its something that can be readily fixed or stopped (ie: foul language, harassment). Modding really isn't one of those things and I don't really have the sympathy for anyone busted with it.

Man, back at the ToS? Really? It is pretty obvious I don't care about the ToS; never have and probably never will. Damn, I bet they didn't force them down your throat as a reminder when you bought online only games.

They don't have online-only games on the Xbox, but every time an MMO is patched they make you click through a new service. The overarching thing on the TOS is that if you have any sort of XBL subscription, you agree to them.

Would it hurt to do things the way I think they should be done? Imagine the customer appreciation that would certainly rise from such niceties. It would likely rise by at least 50%, and would certainly quash the way people look at "M$."

What would doing it your way accomplish? A bunch of people pirating games/movies being able to use an Xbox without getting booted off the network? Gamerscore boosters? I mean, this isn't a ban that's nailing innocent users. This is a ban that hits people who steal, hit people who cheat, and hit people THAT KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

If someone wants to modify their xbox, that's fine. Even Microsoft isn't saying you can't modify your Xbox. They are saying that you can't bring a modified one on their network.

What makes you think people should be entitled to basically steal?

Originally Posted by The Bureau

It's unfortunate that anyone's affected by it when they're just into modding for homebrew and the like,

They at least provide the XNA studio thing to people as a freebe download and free Windows distribution (XBL distribution requires a subscription fee or one gotten through Dreamspark or MSDNAA).

I really don't understand his whining on this. It would be like me crying that I can't bring my original Xbox on Live anymore even though I modded it to be a media center.

[SilentHill]

I kind of doubt THAT many people will get banned. I mean they would lose money..

I don't know. Microsoft can be like that...

[I am nobody]

Originally Posted by SilentHill

I kind of doubt THAT many people will get banned. I mean they would lose money..

I don't know. Microsoft can be like that...

Gravedig much?

And yeah, that many people WERE banned. This all happened a year ago.

[Metal Man]

Yeah. This is old and dead history.

[Cosmonautical]

No point in picking a fight over someone posting their opinion, really. So long as the forum's not super active, bumps aren't the end of the world.

My opinion hasn't changed. I hate the circumstance of the console industry, but I can run this kind of stuff on my PC anyway.