A Gamer's Manifesto

**Kargath** · 05-30-2005, 06:05 PM

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/...manifesto.html

Quite funny, in a grumpy-old-man kind of way.

The Missing Link · 05-30-2005, 07:37 PM

I have to admit--on a lot of those points, I agree.

"There are some who call me... Link?"

"Carpe Gaium Domesticum!" (Seize the Cucco!)
Zelda: The Grand Adventures | Triforce MUCK
ザ行方不明リンク
悪いユウモアの賢人

AJ Middleton · 05-30-2005, 08:53 PM

He lost me at the end. Umm, save points in certain places have nothing to do with limitations--it's about difficulty. As for "arbitrary" triggers in RPGs? Yeah, so that's what makes the genre what it is.

OcarinaMan · 05-30-2005, 09:05 PM

I agree with almost all of those.

The Missing Link · 05-30-2005, 10:39 PM

^^ What he's saying though isn't precisely what you're talking about. Take Link to the Past. You could save "anywhere" by pressing SELECT and hitting "Save and Quit". Dandy. However, the moment you brought it up, you started at one of a preselected set of points (just like the save-point mentality). Same thing happened when you died; you warped back to a certain location. You could have been three inches from the boss (or even have died to the boss), and now you have to go all the way back to the boss (since he's hardly closeby the entrance of a dungeon), which takes time, especially when you're experimenting with a new dungeon boss.

He wants to be able to be like Doom III and all of the PC games where you could F12, immediately dump your location, status, enemy configuration and motives, etc. to disk and continue on, being able to load back to that precise point in the game.

Memory-wise, there is a HUGE difference. In RPGs, typically, they cheated with the save-point philosophy by saving only the minimal set of variables needed to run; the random-number seed, which enemies had already been killed, precise geocoordinates, etc. needn't be stored and could be shuffled into a tabular index of a very small number of bytes. To do a quick-save that you can immediately warp back to nearly requires a selective memory dump of the core variable set (which can easily range into a good couple hundred K upwards depending upon the complexity). What he's suggesting is a different save system entirely; this happens to use more memory and more resources than the save-point strategy, but considering that back in the day when "64K should be enough for everyone", the save-point strategy worked well. However, now it's much easier to dump a lot of data on disc and call it a save file.

I'd also gamble to disagree with you about random triggers being a definitive quality in an RPG. In fact, I agree completely with his point; it does break the roleplaying element of the game.

"There are some who call me... Link?"

"Carpe Gaium Domesticum!" (Seize the Cucco!)
Zelda: The Grand Adventures | Triforce MUCK
ザ行方不明リンク
悪いユウモアの賢人

[sage] · 05-31-2005, 12:28 AM

$465?!

Screw that.

Chunky Kong12345 · 05-31-2005, 06:23 AM

The Revo and 360 will be able to be laid flat. Not sure about the PS3.

AJ Middleton · 05-31-2005, 08:39 AM

TML, I see what you mean. However, I still think there's a difficulty issue involved. Ok, yes, Zelda is really annoying with how they have to start you at a certain place regardless of the fact that you can save anywhere. But having gone through the emulation portion of my life, quick saves on some games just make them way too easy and almost feel like cheating. I think it's a designers issue more than a technological one.

Ok, triggers aren't THE defining element in an RPG. But since I tend to call them "events," and because events are how the story in an RPG progresses, I'd say they're pretty important. Is he calling for more realistic events? Most RPGs have those too. I think he's just being too picky here (The same goes for the whole crates rant.)

Minister of Silly Walks · 05-31-2005, 09:09 AM

Wow. This guy is my new hero.

I am brining up about 100% of his arguments when my friends start making fun of me because I like Nintendo.

"WTFWTF CAN GAMECUEB PLAY DEEVEEDEES?"

"Are VIDEO GAME consoles supposed to?"

DELICIOUS POISON · 05-31-2005, 02:08 PM

Whether or not a system can play extra media makes no difference to me. Sure, I use the dvd-playing feature of the PS2. I never play games on it, though. There aren't enough good ones in the sea of **** for me to wade through and pick something to play. What I'm saying is that despite the fact that they may want to include all of these extra features as something to entice, I can't see myself using it too much unless it's just for that feature. I already have 2 dvd players in my house. They're freaking cheap, and they work better. CD's? Sorry, but the sound quality on most tv speakers scare me away from that. I want to listen to music, not be frustrated because there's no beat or bassline, and I can only hear one channel of the mix..

Basically, I might be totally ****ing insane, but I'm buying a system based on what the games released for it are like. Now Nintendo is scaring me by acting like Donky Konga or some other gimmick **** is a big release... Obviously, it's not going to entice a lot of people. They should have something up front that people seriously want to play. They should have 3rd parties making games.. not just EA. There's nothing to get excited about, but the future... and that's just looking down right boring.

The Missing Link · 05-31-2005, 05:18 PM

^ Well, on one hand, we'll have to see how it plays out. M'soft and Sony have tipped their hands as to which direction they're going, which is a "more of the same" strategy. Nintendo hasn't yet; I'm really curious to see what they have, and not just because I'm an avid supporter either; they claim to be doing something different, and I think, depending upon what that is, will be cause to take notice.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Bolt:
TML, I see what you mean. However, I still think there's a difficulty issue involved. Ok, yes, Zelda is really annoying with how they have to start you at a certain place regardless of the fact that you can save anywhere. But having gone through the emulation portion of my life, quick saves on some games just make them way too easy and almost feel like cheating. I think it's a designers issue more than a technological one.

And I agree with you to some level. Quick-saves aren't exactly ideal. But at the same time, you can do more than they are currently doing. Let's say I just died to a boss within a dungeon that took a hell of a long time to get through. Okay, sure, the doors may be unlocked, but they're going to start me at the beginning, respawning all monsters between me and my destination. What they need is a way to circumvent that. I'm not saying save states as save states are the answer. I do think that being able to save more often than twenty minutes of gameplay is a necessity, as well as being able to respawn relatively close to where you saved. You might still be able to do that with save points (and if so, then the article is perhaps overzealous), but at least the ability to not have to do things over and over (especially if it's a difficult segment leading up to an even more difficult segment) is a bloody fine idea.

Quote:

But since I tend to call them "events," and because events are how the story in an RPG progresses, I'd say they're pretty important. Is he calling for more realistic events? Most RPGs have those too. I think he's just being too picky here (The same goes for the whole crates rant.)

I don't think that's what he's saying at all, or at least you're making it sound more cynical than he is trying to be. Let's face it: plot happens. Something must happen for me to progress onward to a new area. The problem is when you create this non sequitur action that must be completed before you can proceed with the plot. For example, let's have an example of Good Idea, Bad Idea.

Good Idea
The evil enemy base has been set and all of the blast doors have been activated, shutting immediately. Enemies, trapped like you, are swarming around you, and your friend, mechanical genius that she is, has to hack the computer to find the code to unlock the doors. The rest of the party has to fend off the baddies for a certain amount of time in order to allow friend to find the key in order to save your ass.

Bad Idea
The good guy base is crumbling down because of a massive bomb that just exploded. You're running for your lives because there are more bombs in other sections of the building waiting to go off. As you get into the fourth area, a little girl is blocking the doorway. The little girl cannot find her kitten, and she will not move until she saves her kitten. The hero, in a completely unrelated move, must head backwards into the base to find the kitten (who could not be found before now since talking to the girl is a trigger for the cat's appearance), and then run back to the girl, return the kitten (which is a trigger to be able to go on into the fifth area), all in order to leave the building.

Good idea: coming up with a plot-related way of heightening drama in a scene. Bad idea: making a completely stupid "sidequest" part of the main plot, all the while destroying the realistic feel of the game.

"There are some who call me... Link?"

"Carpe Gaium Domesticum!" (Seize the Cucco!)
Zelda: The Grand Adventures | Triforce MUCK
ザ行方不明リンク
悪いユウモアの賢人

AJ Middleton · 05-31-2005, 05:44 PM

Ok, great, but that still has nothing to do with technology; it all depends on how much of a pain the designer wants to be.

Again, how the events are planned is up to the designer and has nothing to do with the technology (OMG...Ymir Forest in ToS. Why can't we just jump into the freakin water to get the Ymir fruit? WTF is up with the whole obnoxious animal business? Sooo unnecessary.)

The flaw with the article is that he starts out making really good points about technology and society, but then starts ranting about details in games that he personally doesn't like. It kinds ruins the mood for me. I agree: graphics are overrrated, difficulty is declining, and originality is lacking. Those are all valid points. But then he starts ranting about invisible barriers, text on the screen, and CRATES! I think those just weaken his piece.

The Missing Link · 05-31-2005, 07:17 PM

Yes, he leads into the article with a deal about the FLOP-count and what not, but notice what the article says:

"20 things gamers want from the seventh generation of game consoles"

The article isn't mainly about technological advances, although it loosely pretends to be. The article is about the changes that he thinks would be cool in the gaming realm and, to a lesser extent, that which he things gamers in general want.

As far as the crates go, he does make a good point. You hardly ever see half a dozen of them in any one spot unless you're at a dock.

"There are some who call me... Link?"

"Carpe Gaium Domesticum!" (Seize the Cucco!)
Zelda: The Grand Adventures | Triforce MUCK
ザ行方不明リンク
悪いユウモアの賢人

***CaptHayfever*** · 06-01-2005, 10:38 AM

^Or unless they're little CD crates.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

LinkManDX · 06-01-2005, 02:46 PM

With the whole DVD playing thing, I have heard that playing DVD's burns out the light for a PS2.

Koga · 06-02-2005, 01:21 AM

I always thought that in OoT they did a great job at making the boss room very close to the entry, but you could not get there without going through the rest of the dungeon first. If you have done so, and die at the boss it's only a very short trip to the boss.

I hate it when a game doesn't let you save between fights. I remember the first Mega Man Battle Network where you first had to fight Elec Man (not that difficult, but annoying) and immediately afterwards Proto Man, who was really difficult and had some one-hit KO moves.

05-30-2005, 06:05 PM	#1
Kargath THE QUESTIONATOR (Polls Mod) Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: kargath64.deviantart.com Gender: Posts: 5,150 Thanks: 597 Thanked 256 Times in 177 Posts Blog Entries: 1 Points: 12,221.26 Bank: 648,089.27 Total Points: 660,310.53 Donate	http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/...manifesto.html Quite funny, in a grumpy-old-man kind of way.

05-30-2005, 07:37 PM	#2
The Missing Link Professional Lurker Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: New Hyrule, Washington, US Gender: Posts: 15,758 Thanks: 113 Thanked 317 Times in 215 Posts Points: 18,061.60 Bank: 171,064.45 Total Points: 189,126.05 Donate	I have to admit--on a lot of those points, I agree. "There are some who call me... Link?" "Carpe Gaium Domesticum!" (Seize the Cucco!) Zelda: The Grand Adventures \| Triforce MUCK ザ行方不明リンク悪いユウモアの賢人

05-30-2005, 08:53 PM	#3
AJ Middleton Banned Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 0 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Points: 2,277.00 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 2,777.00 Donate	He lost me at the end. Umm, save points in certain places have nothing to do with limitations--it's about difficulty. As for "arbitrary" triggers in RPGs? Yeah, so that's what makes the genre what it is.

05-30-2005, 09:05 PM	#4
OcarinaMan Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ikana Castle Posts: 2,481 Thanks: 1 Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts Points: 9,977.77 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 10,477.77 Donate	I agree with almost all of those.

05-30-2005, 10:39 PM	#5
The Missing Link Professional Lurker Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: New Hyrule, Washington, US Gender: Posts: 15,758 Thanks: 113 Thanked 317 Times in 215 Posts Points: 18,061.60 Bank: 171,064.45 Total Points: 189,126.05 Donate	^^ What he's saying though isn't precisely what you're talking about. Take Link to the Past. You could save "anywhere" by pressing SELECT and hitting "Save and Quit". Dandy. However, the moment you brought it up, you started at one of a preselected set of points (just like the save-point mentality). Same thing happened when you died; you warped back to a certain location. You could have been three inches from the boss (or even have died to the boss), and now you have to go all the way back to the boss (since he's hardly closeby the entrance of a dungeon), which takes time, especially when you're experimenting with a new dungeon boss. He wants to be able to be like Doom III and all of the PC games where you could F12, immediately dump your location, status, enemy configuration and motives, etc. to disk and continue on, being able to load back to that precise point in the game. Memory-wise, there is a HUGE difference. In RPGs, typically, they cheated with the save-point philosophy by saving only the minimal set of variables needed to run; the random-number seed, which enemies had already been killed, precise geocoordinates, etc. needn't be stored and could be shuffled into a tabular index of a very small number of bytes. To do a quick-save that you can immediately warp back to nearly requires a selective memory dump of the core variable set (which can easily range into a good couple hundred K upwards depending upon the complexity). What he's suggesting is a different save system entirely; this happens to use more memory and more resources than the save-point strategy, but considering that back in the day when "64K should be enough for everyone", the save-point strategy worked well. However, now it's much easier to dump a lot of data on disc and call it a save file. I'd also gamble to disagree with you about random triggers being a definitive quality in an RPG. In fact, I agree completely with his point; it does break the roleplaying element of the game. "There are some who call me... Link?" "Carpe Gaium Domesticum!" (Seize the Cucco!) Zelda: The Grand Adventures \| Triforce MUCK ザ行方不明リンク悪いユウモアの賢人

05-31-2005, 12:28 AM	#6
[sage] Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Florida Gender: Posts: 18,138 Thanks: 1 Thanked 8 Times in 5 Posts Points: 38,302.57 Bank: 923.79 Total Points: 39,226.36 Donate	$465?! Screw that.

05-31-2005, 06:23 AM	#7
Chunky Kong12345 Purveyor of Useless Knowledge Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: ogmftwbqq Gender: Posts: 17,623 Thanks: 80 Thanked 377 Times in 273 Posts Points: 201.91 Bank: 317,388.12 Total Points: 317,590.03 Donate	The Revo and 360 will be able to be laid flat. Not sure about the PS3.

05-31-2005, 08:39 AM	#8
AJ Middleton Banned Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 0 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Points: 2,277.00 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 2,777.00 Donate	TML, I see what you mean. However, I still think there's a difficulty issue involved. Ok, yes, Zelda is really annoying with how they have to start you at a certain place regardless of the fact that you can save anywhere. But having gone through the emulation portion of my life, quick saves on some games just make them way too easy and almost feel like cheating. I think it's a designers issue more than a technological one. Ok, triggers aren't THE defining element in an RPG. But since I tend to call them "events," and because events are how the story in an RPG progresses, I'd say they're pretty important. Is he calling for more realistic events? Most RPGs have those too. I think he's just being too picky here (The same goes for the whole crates rant.)

05-31-2005, 09:09 AM	#9
Minister of Silly Walks Moderator of Awesome Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Location, Location. Gender: Posts: 24,005 Thanks: 709 Thanked 761 Times in 431 Posts Points: 86,752.24 Bank: 230,510.85 Total Points: 317,263.10 Donate	Wow. This guy is my new hero. I am brining up about 100% of his arguments when my friends start making fun of me because I like Nintendo. "WTFWTF CAN GAMECUEB PLAY DEEVEEDEES?" "Are VIDEO GAME consoles supposed to?"

05-31-2005, 02:08 PM	#10
DELICIOUS POISON Retro Nintendo Supermod Art & Literature Mod Metroid Mod Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I rub my tilde all over your asterisk Gender: Posts: 17,031 Thanks: 585 Thanked 1,841 Times in 902 Posts Points: 749.57 Bank: 5,372,520.80 Total Points: 5,373,270.37 Donate	Whether or not a system can play extra media makes no difference to me. Sure, I use the dvd-playing feature of the PS2. I never play games on it, though. There aren't enough good ones in the sea of ** for me to wade through and pick something to play. What I'm saying is that despite the fact that they may want to include all of these extra features as something to entice, I can't see myself using it too much unless it's just for that feature. I already have 2 dvd players in my house. They're freaking cheap, and they work better. CD's? Sorry, but the sound quality on most tv speakers scare me away from that. I want to listen to music, not be frustrated because there's no beat or bassline, and I can only hear one channel of the mix.. Basically, I might be totally ing insane, but I'm buying a system based on what the games released for it are like. Now Nintendo is scaring me by acting like Donky Konga or some other gimmick ** is a big release... Obviously, it's not going to entice a lot of people. They should have something up front that people seriously want to play. They should have 3rd parties making games.. not just EA. There's nothing to get excited about, but the future... and that's just looking down right boring.

05-31-2005, 05:44 PM	#12
AJ Middleton Banned Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 0 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Points: 2,277.00 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 2,777.00 Donate	Ok, great, but that still has nothing to do with technology; it all depends on how much of a pain the designer wants to be. Again, how the events are planned is up to the designer and has nothing to do with the technology (OMG...Ymir Forest in ToS. Why can't we just jump into the freakin water to get the Ymir fruit? WTF is up with the whole obnoxious animal business? Sooo unnecessary.) The flaw with the article is that he starts out making really good points about technology and society, but then starts ranting about details in games that he personally doesn't like. It kinds ruins the mood for me. I agree: graphics are overrrated, difficulty is declining, and originality is lacking. Those are all valid points. But then he starts ranting about invisible barriers, text on the screen, and CRATES! I think those just weaken his piece.

05-31-2005, 07:17 PM	#13
The Missing Link Professional Lurker Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: New Hyrule, Washington, US Gender: Posts: 15,758 Thanks: 113 Thanked 317 Times in 215 Posts Points: 18,061.60 Bank: 171,064.45 Total Points: 189,126.05 Donate	Yes, he leads into the article with a deal about the FLOP-count and what not, but notice what the article says: "20 things gamers want from the seventh generation of game consoles" The article isn't mainly about technological advances, although it loosely pretends to be. The article is about the changes that he thinks would be cool in the gaming realm and, to a lesser extent, that which he things gamers in general want. As far as the crates go, he does make a good point. You hardly ever see half a dozen of them in any one spot unless you're at a dock. "There are some who call me... Link?" "Carpe Gaium Domesticum!" (Seize the Cucco!) Zelda: The Grand Adventures \| Triforce MUCK ザ行方不明リンク悪いユウモアの賢人

06-01-2005, 10:38 AM	#14
*CaptHayfever* Smash Supermod Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: (n) - the place where I am Gender: Posts: 20,092 Thanks: 331 Thanked 1,048 Times in 632 Posts Points: 125,316.38 Bank: 2,971.57 Total Points: 128,287.94 Donate	^Or unless they're little CD crates. And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

06-01-2005, 02:46 PM	#15
LinkManDX Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Some call it slums, some call it nice! Gender: Posts: 3,456 Thanks: 279 Thanked 230 Times in 141 Posts Points: 23,271.84 Bank: 11,925.13 Total Points: 35,196.97 Donate	With the whole DVD playing thing, I have heard that playing DVD's burns out the light for a PS2.

06-02-2005, 01:21 AM	#16
Koga Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: The Netherlands Gender: Posts: 17,095 Thanks: 104 Thanked 186 Times in 117 Posts Points: 109,858.07 Bank: 26,379.15 Total Points: 136,237.22 Donate	I always thought that in OoT they did a great job at making the boss room very close to the entry, but you could not get there without going through the rest of the dungeon first. If you have done so, and die at the boss it's only a very short trip to the boss. I hate it when a game doesn't let you save between fights. I remember the first Mega Man Battle Network where you first had to fight Elec Man (not that difficult, but annoying) and immediately afterwards Proto Man, who was really difficult and had some one-hit KO moves.