Paper Mario - Commence the Flaming! *FIXED*

[Codiekitty]

Now, I know this is often hailed as the greatest Mario RPG of all time, so I was looking forward to it. I played it just after its release through a rental, but had to return it after getting to Tubba Blubba's castle. The years passed, and I totally forgot most of the game. Well, purchasing Thousand Year Door gave me a bug to get the original, so I eBayed it. I beat the Koopa Bros, and it went into my drawer for about six months.

About a week ago, I decided to dust off my N64. Mario Party 2 angered me, what with most of the minigames being ones from Mario Party with something thrown in (for example, Bumper Balls now has a couple rocks on the arena), and all the new ones pretty much sucking (if I ever come upon the genius who thought up that counting Toads one, I'm gonna ram my shoe up his rear). I also don't recall the controls of the first Mario Party being that stiff. Something enticed me to finish Paper Mario, and I did. Now I can shelve this game and get on with my life.

This is one of the ugliest N64 games I've seen. The N64 should be able to take sprites better than this. But instead, we've got characters who look like they were drawn with a child's blackened markers on thin art paper, then torn out of the paper instead of cut. I hardly noticed any of the sceneries, except for the clouds in Flower Fields which looked like a painting (though I guess I was trying to something to bearable because the music was making me want to ram a car key into my ears). When I originally played it a few years ago, this game's graphics gave me a splitting headache. They no longer hurt my head, just my stomach.

The only N64 game I've played with a worse soundtrack than this is Yoshi's Story. All of the decent songs in this are remixes of some earlier Mario song. All the new stuff ranges from blah to needing work to downright irritating. Who the hell composed the Flower Fields song? And that racket that plays while the train is moving in Shy Guy's Toybox? Or the friggin' final boss piece of crap?

Now, before I get a "graphics and music don't make the game, stupid" I'm gonna go onto my issues with the gameplay.

The battle system is too slow. Sure, not as slow as Magi Nation (on my New Game+, I spent three hours in the Shadow Hold fighting everything, then had to reset because I used a key in the wrong place. When I restarted, I ran from everything and wasn't in there for more than twenty minutes), but still slow (granted, some time in the middle of playing this I had emulated Sweet Home on my Dreamcast, and its lightning fast battle system may have spoiled me a little). The only person who doesn't feel the need to put on a little show and dance before attacking is Mario. Those Crazee Dazees (or whatever they're called) in the Flower Field are by far the worst offenders, as they feel like they take twenty seconds to attack.

Thanks to the "It takes off one point of damage rather than something significant", towards the end of the game, the defend action command becomes less and less useful to the point of being useless (sure, 1 is half of 2 which could essentially double your life meter, but 10 vs. 11? Who cares?). I hardly ever blocked in the Bowser fight, and still won (though I had the Pretty Lucky badge, so about 1/4 of his attacks missed altogether).

Bowser's battle was pretty anal overall. The cutscenes before it were nothing short of obnoxious, and every three or so rounds Bowser would cast that spell that made him "invincible", and then you'd have to blow a turn taking it down with no real effort. It's like if you had to constantly use the Crystal while fighting Zeromus in Final Fantasy 4 (it's also pretty retarded, because in real life Bowser would probably realize that I could just break the spell). I also love that move he has that restores 30 HP when you're doing 9 to him per round. I had a splendid time when he used this far into the battle twice in three turns.

I hate this game's star system. I guess it's the game's way of keeping a check on your levels, but it really hurts the game instead of helps it. After a certain level, an enemy won't give you coins or EXP. Most of the enemies on the field are nigh impossible to dodge, so you'll often find yourself wasting five minutes fighting an enemy you're not going to get anything from, bringing the already slow game to screeching hault.

The woman at Mega Man Homepage kept talking of how awesome X's Action Triggers in Command Mission because they involve nothing more than holding and mashing buttons, and how Axl's was total **** because it took some skill to use. Well, this game would probably be her favorite RPG of all time, because almost all of the Special attacks involve mindless things things like holding the A button until the light turned red or smacking the control stick to the left as fast as you can. Granted, some of these take some real skill to use (Sushie's Tidal Wave), but there wasn't enough thinking nor attacks like this to make of for the button mashers. I'm sorry, but I fail to see the challenge in hammering the A button.

In fact, the whole game is seriously lacking in the challenge department. I remember back when this game was released, I looked at some SMBHQ reviews for this game (a section I cannot even find anymore), and every one of them complained of how insanely difficult Huff N. Puff was. What the hell? Sure, he gave me my only Game Over in the game, but I blame that on carelessness on my part. The second go round (all I did was buy a Life Shroom which I wound up not even needing), I kicked his ass to the moon. I'd hardly blame it on overleveling, since if I were overleveled I would have beaten him the first time, plus this game does whatever it can to prevent it. I guess people were trying to use the stupid Lakitu whose name I never bothered to learn instead of Bow. Also, the Fire Pirahna's second phase didn't even touch me. Seriously.

Some people rant about the game's puzzles. Is there some confusion between "Solving challenging puzzles" and "Doing stuff"? Only a small handful of the puzzles were anything that I had to think about. Everything else was asinine crap like "Oh, a crack in the wall, let's have Bombette blow it up" (when I got dumped into the dungeon in Bowser's castle, I knew immediately there was going to be a crack in the wall) or "Oh, a lake, let's have Sushie swim me over to the other side", and most of the ones that could possibly be challenging have the answer either in the next room, like the shaped block puzzle in Dry Dry Ruins (Okay, so it's blocked out by sand. How do you clear the sand? Waltz on over to the other end of the room and push a button), or right next to you, like the shooting Kooper into a hole in the wall in the Crystal Palace. Speaking of the shooting Kooper into the hole in the wall, what was up with those clone "puzzles" in the ice area (especially the last one where we had Luigi, Kolorado, Goompapa, and some old Koopa saying they were Kooper)? Has anybody ever actually lost to those?

The ending credits scene was a complete ripoff of Super Mario RPG, only not as cute. The biggest pleasure I got from it was when Mario and Peach walked off, came up to Mario's house, and dirty thoughts filled my head.

Smithy could kick Bowser's ass, and you all know it.


Where are these lemmings going? The Super Nintendo Super Shire! Hop in line and follow them there!

[ May 20, 2005, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: CodieKitty ]

[Chunky Kong12345]

Boooooo. Hissssss.

Did you like PM:TTYD?

[Superyoshi]

Well at least I'm not the only one who doesn't like Paper Mario. SMRPG and Mario & Luigi were way better.

[Sean P Kelly]

I do agree that, compared to TTYD, Paper Mario's graphics don't look that great (though cell-shading wasn't invented back then)

[Glyph Phoenix]

{Some of this refers to the other, complete topic. I don't reply in that one because it'll probably be locked and this one updated. Or this one locked. But because all of you punks thought it was a good idea to reply to the incomplete one, I figure it's best just to write it here. You know which topic I'm talking about.}

This is one of the ugliest N64 games I've seen. The N64 should be able to take sprites better than this. But instead, we've got characters who look like they were drawn with a child's blackened markers on thin art paper, then torn out of the paper instead of cut. I hardly noticed any of the sceneries, except for the clouds in Flower Fields which looked like a painting (though I guess I was trying to something to bearable because the music was making me want to ram a car key into my ears).

I don't know what your problem with the graphics is. I think they looked fine. The whole paper cut out thing was obviously the look they were going for, but they were rendered nicely. "Blackened markers"? That's not what the game looks like at all. They were stylized, and while they sure didn't make total use of the system's abilities, they looked fine.

(it's also pretty retarded, because in real life Bowser would probably realize that I could just break the spell).

No. Geez. Which Bowser are you thinking of? The Bowser we all know wouldn't get it unless someone like Kammy spelled it out. And she was incapacitated at the moment.

The only N64 game I've played with a worse soundtrack than this is Yoshi's Story. All of the decent songs in this are remixes of some earlier Mario song. All the new stuff ranges from blah to needing work to downright irritating. Who the hell composed the Flower Fields song? And that racket that plays while the train is moving in Shy Guy's Toybox? Or the friggin' final boss piece of crap?

The Flower Fields music was pretty bad. I'll give you that. And I don't remember the Shy guy train music, so it must be forgettable at best.

But the final boss music was awesome. And so is Bowser's theme. And Peach's theme is much better than Paper Mario 2 Peach's theme. And Mt. Rugged. And while the Yoshi's island music was remixed from Tetris Attack it is just too awesome not to mention. That game had so many rockin' soundtracks... Flower Fields and some train music are the ones you single out?

The only person who doesn't feel the need to put on a little show and dance before attacking is Mario. Those Crazee Dazees (or whatever they're called) in the Flower Field are by far the worst offenders, as they feel like they take twenty seconds to attack.

No. They do take a long time, but that's just so that it's harder to use A to block them. Sure, the A button became less useful as the game progresses, but the designers figured that out with the superguards in PM2. (Hopefully when PM3 rolls around they'll fix it so regular guards are more useful, and superguards aren't the only ones worth using.) It's not about whether it'll do damage or not--guarding just makes it more fun. If you're not even trying to guard you're not playing the game right.

The action commands were just something to liven up the action. Sure, they may be a little on the tedious side, but I'd rather have a couple A and Control Stick < commands tossed in there than the crap menu systems of the other 90 percent of RPG's. But that's what this was. It was something different, a gimmick. Besides, they did a better job when it came to this than SMRPG. SMRPG basic attacks consisted of the A button. Laaaaame.

The star system is fine. I'd rather have a simple 100 star system than a bunch of exp statistics.

The ending credits scene was a complete ripoff of Super Mario RPG, only not as cute.

I think the ending credits scene is a lot better than in SMRPG (there's a lot more stuff going on), but the fact that they stole the freaking parade idea still sucks. I hate that.

Speaking of the shooting Kooper into the hole in the wall, what was up with those clone "puzzles" in the ice area (especially the last one where we had Luigi, Kolorado, Goompapa, and some old Koopa saying they were Kooper)? Has anybody ever actually lost to those?

Ugh. That was a joke. The whole damn game is full of this kind of thing. No one is supposed to lose to it. We all know what Kooper looks like. It's just making fun of the whole clone puzzle by giving you a ridiculously easy one after a really tough one.

In fact, the whole game is seriously lacking in the challenge department.

Bah. Some games are just easy. Better a game you go through without a single game over than a game you stop at the first level because you got a thousand game overs. As long as the game is long and rewarding enough (which I found it to be) to play, difficulty shouldn't be a problem.

Smithy could kick Bowser's ass, and you all know it.

Yeah, but Smithy sucked. While it was a welcome change to the whole "Bowser kidnaps princess" theme, nobody knew what he was. He was just a metal thing. He hit himself in the head with a hammer. He had a major speech problem. I remember him saying something to the effect of "GUUGUOOOGUOO" when he got hurt enough. I didn't like him much. But then there's Bowser. Everyone's favorite failure. Now there's a villian I could get used to.

But Smithy's music is all kickass.

[ May 20, 2005, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: Glyph Phoenix ]

[Codiekitty]

... woah, what happened to the second half of my post? Damn blasted Revenge of the Sith downloaders... I'll fix it.

Originally posted by Chunky Kong12345:
Boooooo. Hissssss.

Did you like PM:TTYD?

I only played it for about half an hour, just to get the feel of it. Not long enough to form an opinion.

Flower Fields and some train music are the ones you single out?

Well, if you want me to name more...

- Basic battle theme got annoying after a while.
- Jr. Koopa's theme. I'd also like to strangle the guy who made him appear so often.
- Boo's Mansion.
- Shy Guy's Toybox.
- Fight with General Guy (it sounded familiar, but I didn't bother trying to figure out where I heard it from).
- I thought Bowser's overall theme was a rambling mess.


Where are these lemmings going? The Super Nintendo Super Shire! Hop in line and follow them there!

[X-3]

(Reads, is not mad) While I like PM, the other RPGs kick it's butt in any way. You should play more PM:TYD. Anyway, I liked that Bowser theme, but I suppose that its crap compared to other RPG music?

So, in the end, I kinda agree.

[Glyph Phoenix]

Most of those tracks are just fine. The regular battle music could use some improvement since you hear it all the time. The rest weren't bad at all. I didn't have any problem with Jr. Troopa, Boo's Mansion, or the Toy Box.

Bowser and General Guy had great music. Hell, when I read this topic I finally got around to downloading Mp3s of them. And that's in addition to the various midi files I have. This is probably the only game I have ever taken the time to download mp3s for.

Besides, CK, someone who likes the Sports Tribe music is in no position to call other music rambling messes.

[Codiekitty]

Which version of the Sports tribe music are we talking about here? I agree it was an agonizing mess on the Genesis version (then again, all the songs were), but it was well done on the SNES.

Sometimes the game's instruments might be a little on the annoying side (UN Squadron's final boss), but typically if the song has rhythm or emotion to it I can take it. It's when the song's instruments are REALLY annoying, or when the song sounds like it was composed by a toddler (this one will annoy me even if the instruments are good) that it starts to drive me nuts. Bowser's theme (and several of the songs in the whole game) managed to fail in both areas.

And don't you dare tell me I'm the only person in the world who didn't like Paper Mario's soundtrack. This guy hated it even more than I did.


Where are these lemmings going? The Super Nintendo Super Shire! Hop in line and follow them there!

[ May 21, 2005, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: CodieKitty ]

[L007 is Undecided]

The soundtrack of Paper Mario does pretty much suck. Paper Mario: TTYD's soundtrack is vastly superior in every single song. (Espically the battle music. That is worth remembering, like SMRPG's battle theme)

[JaredThaJAsWelch]

I think All the Mario RPGs are Great other then SMB3 they clearly smarsh all other Mario Games in the Most important Area... Plot.

[Yoshinator]

TYD was much longer. I liked it better. Although having to be Peach and then Bowser and then Mario again got kind of annoying.

[Beam Yosho the Drunkard]

^Although, Bowser's levels were awesome. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Glyph Phoenix]

Originally posted by Luigi007. Again, just Luigi007.:
The soundtrack of Paper Mario does pretty much suck. Paper Mario: TTYD's soundtrack is vastly superior in every single song. (Espically the battle music. That is worth remembering, like SMRPG's battle theme)

Argh. Not true at all. The SMRPG battle wasn't much better than Paper Mario's. If I had to pick one or the other to be better, I'd pick SMRPG's battle music, but neither one was pretty good.

And right now I'd like to add that all three don't have memorable battle music. I had to check midi files just to remember what the battle music sounded like. And since I'm not going all the way to the basement and setting up all the gamecube crap just to hear the Paper Mario: TTYD battle music, all I can tell you is that while the violin Mario music riff at the beginning was fun at first, it became really annoying after hearing it more than once. And while we're on the subject, M&L:SS had really poor battle music.

But that's just the battle music. Paper Mario excelled in some music. Most of it was kinda screechy, the worst offenders being the Toad Town music, Flower Fields, or Shy Guy's Toy Box. Goomba Road/Pleasant path was a bit bad in the screech department, but I thought it was a good song. The same holds true for Bowser's music. Paper Mario 2 didn't even use the same Bowser and Peach music, even though both of them were so much better in Paper Mario 1.

And then there were the awesome sound tracks. Tutankoopa's battle music, the Crystal Palace, every track associated with Tubba Blubba, and Mt. Rugged. Paper Mario 2 had some great songs, but few as great as these.

The second Paper Mario had some awesome tracks, but dismissing the first just because of some Flower Fields crap really isn't fair.

[Codiekitty]

Originally posted by Glyph Phoenix:
The second Paper Mario had some awesome tracks, but dismissing the first just because of some Flower Fields crap really isn't fair.

Listing about eight different songs (out of many more times the music made me want to grit my teeth, I just can't recall them probably because my brain succeeded in flushing them out) that sucked ass is not dismissing the game's soundtrack because of one.

Oh yeah, the "mini" boss theme was obnoxious.


Where are these lemmings going? The Super Nintendo Super Shire! Hop in line and follow them there!

[OcarinaMan]

The Gusty Gulch music was pretty darn awesome, though. Too bad you're only there for a short time.

Paper Mario was the game that got me into the whole RPG genre, so maybe I'm a little biased, but I really liked it. Better than M&L, which centered around stupid laugh or bean puns for almost everybody's and everywhere's name. Plus Bros. Attacks were either useless or cheap. And if you had trouble dodging, you were guaranteed to die. For me, M&L is the black sheep of the MRPGs. Hopefully M&LDS will be better.

[Glyph Phoenix]

Originally posted by CodieKitty:
Listing about eight different songs (out of many more times the music made me want to grit my teeth, I just can't recall them probably because my brain succeeded in flushing them out) that sucked ass is not dismissing the game's soundtrack because of one.

Oh yeah, the "mini" boss theme was obnoxious.

The miniboss theme was awesome and so were the rest of the tracks you had a problem with save for Flower Fields. You wouldn't know a good soundtrack if it hit you on the head, Sports tribe.

[L007 is Undecided]

Glyph, SHUT UP ALREADY. It's her opinion, so you have NO right to go and and yell at people with a "I'm right, you're wrong, screw you" additude. If you want a resonable arguement over this, then get evidence that is new, not the same crap that's been used over and over again.

[Codiekitty]

Y'know Glyph, I could just turn around and say the same thing about you for liking the music, because I've actually commented on how the instruments sound like they're broken and how the actual songs sounds like composition exercises. You just say "the song's awesome, you just have no taste".

Originally posted by ElfLad:
And if you had trouble dodging, you were guaranteed to die.

You realize this applies to pretty much every real game (sans most turn based RPGs, and in fact the only exception I can think of is Mario & Luigi) out there, right? There's a huge difference between the game sucking, and you sucking at the game.


Where are these lemmings going? The Super Nintendo Super Shire! Hop in line and follow them there!

[OcarinaMan]

^I was mostly referring to the final Cackletta's ghost battle. There was this one hugely cheap move where she attacks each Bro 6 or more times in one turn. If she powered up her attack beforehand, it could bring you from full health to dead in one turn. And that was just the head.