Many Marios X2: The Odyssey (Open for all newcomers!) - Page 3

The Willful Wanderer · 06-08-2007, 02:10 PM

Start Day 3:

127C 0R 24E 6GE 14AE 4PS

Purchase: Ration x24 (-48C, +24R)

Purchase: Money Bag x3 (-75 c, +3GE)

Resource Result: 4C, 24R, 24E, 9GE, 14AE, 4PS

Work: Gather x33 (Cost: 24E, 9GE)

Resource Result: 4C, 24R, 0E, 0GE, 14AE, 4PS

END DAY

Gather x33 @ 4C each = +132C
Toad x6 @4R each = -24R

Camp Contains:
2x Caravan
3x Toadbag
3x Toadbagpipe

**Prince Toad** · 06-08-2007, 04:07 PM

Toads 1-8: Spend extra crafting energy to create 4 Warp Pipes. Equip them on Toads 6-9. (0 c)

Toad 1: RG, 5 energy. (20 c)

Toads 9-10: Spend extra crafting energy to create another Warp Pipe. Equip it on Toad 10. (0 c)

Toads 2-6: RG, 5 energy. (100 c)

Buying 4 moneybags; equipping them on Toads 7-10.

Toads 7-10: RG, 6 energy. (96 c)

Buying 40 rations. (16 c)

SephirothKirby · 06-08-2007, 04:31 PM

Gotta be more careful. I was afraid that would happen, I just didn't take the time to figure out if it would.

ShyGuy 1:
Equip: N/A
Action: Coin Gathering

ShyGuy 2:
Equip: N/A
Action: Coin Gathering

ShyGuy 3:
Equip: N/A
Action: Coin Gathering

ShyGuy 4:
Equip: N/A
Action: Coin Gathering

ShyGuy 5:
Equip: N/A
Action: Coin Gathering.

ShyGuy 6:
Equip: Money Bag
Action: Coin Gathering

ShyGuy 7:
Equip: Money Bag
Action: Coin Gathering

ShyGuy 8:
Equip: Money Bag
Action: Coin Gathering

ShyGuy 9:
Equip: Money Bag
Action: Coin Gathering

Then I buy 80 Rations. I should have 160c.

Man, Rations are far more hindering than pay was.

Though, a clever player should be able to keep his funds up. I don't know how I let myself get behind.

**Prince Toad** · 06-08-2007, 07:20 PM

Rations are cheaper than pay.

Dux is not you · 06-08-2007, 10:20 PM

No, they aren't. Rations cost you 8c (6c for Goombas). Pay was always 5c.

**Prince Toad** · 06-08-2007, 11:14 PM

Oh yeah. I thought it was 10c for some reason.

...bah.

Dux is not you · 06-09-2007, 01:17 AM

Chunky has until tomorrow morning to post his actions, or he'll be frozen for day 4.

Rainbow Dash · 06-09-2007, 11:52 AM

Build a Warp Pipe.

Goomba 1 - Build Warp Pipe (-3e)
Goomba 2 - Build Warp Pipe (-1e), Resource Gather (-2e)
Goomba 3 - Resource Gather (-3e)
Goomba 4 - Resource Gather (-3e)
Goomba 5 (Moneybag/Super Mushroom/Warp Pipe) - Resource Gather (-4e)
Goomba 6 (Moneybag/Super Mushroom/Warp Pipe) - Resource Gather (-4e)
Goomba 7 (Moneybag/Super Mushroom/Warp Pipe) - Resource Gather (-4e)

Dux is not you · 06-09-2007, 02:12 PM

Got that. I'll update as soon as I get this done...

Day 4

Strategy tips: Even without special equipment, one unit can feed itself and one other unit. With a Warp pipe and moneybag, each 4E unit can support three, so you can use the other two units for any other purpose. Three equipped Goombas can support ten Goombas, allowing you up to seven free units. Of course, adding Super Mushrooms into the mix can only improve these rates... (1 to 4 for Goombas, 2 to 7 for other races.)
New item: Fire Flower. (75c; Equip; +2 to attack, ranged fire)

BSkullDragoshi (Koopas):
Funds: 116c
Rations: 32
Artifacts (16E): Caravan x2 (8/10), Flagpole
Items: Moneybag x4
Koopas (8): Koopa x4, Koopa/Moneybag x4

Selene Starblade
Funds: 136c
Rations: 0
Artifacts: Caravan x2 (6/10), Warp Pipe x3
Items: Moneybag x6
Toads (6): Toad/Moneybag x3, Toad/Moneybag/Warp Pipe x3

Prince Toad (Toads):
Funds: 16c
Rations: 0
Artifacts: Caravan x2 (10/10), Flagpole, Warp Pipe x10
Toads (10): Toad/Warp Pipe x6, Toad/Moneybag/Warp Pipe x4

SephirothKirby (ShyGuys):
Funds: 0c
Rations: 40
Artifacts: Caravan x3 (9/15), Flagpole
Items: Moneybag x4
ShyGuys (9): ShyGuy x5, ShyGuy/Moneybag x4

ChunkyKong12345 (Goombas):
Funds: 145c
Rations: 12
Artifacts: Caravan x2 (7/10), Flagpole, Warp Pipe x3
Items: Moneybag x3, Super Mushroom x3
Goombas (7): Goomba x4, Goomba/Moneybag/Super Mushroom/Warp Pipe x3
Notes:

Quote:

Resource Gather (-4e)

You mean 6E.

The Willful Wanderer · 06-09-2007, 03:11 PM

Start Day 3:

136C 0R 24E 9GE 26AE 4PS

Purchase: Mana Pool (-50C, -4E, -26AE)

Purchase and Use: Coin Shower x10 (-50C, +110C, -10E)

Purchase and Use: Coin Shower x10 (-50C, +110C, -10E)

Resource Result: 206C, 0R, 0E, 9GE, 0AE, 4PS

Purchase: Toad x1 (-120C, +4E, +2AE, -1PS)

Resource Result: 86C, 0R, 4E, 9GE, 2AE, 3PS

Purchase and Use: Coin Shower x4 (-20C, +44C, -4E)

Resource Result: 110C, 0R, 0E, 9GE, 2AE, 3PS

Work: Gather x9 (-9GE)

Resource Result: 146C, 0R, 0E, 0GE, 2AE, 3PS

Purchase: Rations x28 (-56C, +28R)

Resource Result: 90C,28R, 0E, 0GE, 2AE, 3PS

END DAY

Gather x9 @ 4C each = +36C
Toad x7 @4R each = -28R

Camp Contains:
2x Caravan
1x Mana Pool
1x Toad
3x Toadbag
3x Toadbagpipe

Breadlord Dragoshi · 06-09-2007, 03:26 PM

I buy not one, not two, not three, but FOUR Warp Pipes (-16E, -80c) and equip them to the Koopas with Moneybags, who all Gather Resources (132c), then the other four Koopas go Exploring. (Exploring, 16E), buy 2 Super Shrooms (-100c) and equip them to two of the Koopas with Moneybags and Warp Pipes, then have them Gather Resources with that extra energy, if possible. (44c).

EDIT: Sorry for all the editing of my coin total if anyone's noticed. I've been calculating. And I misread something. @_@

SephirothKirby · 06-09-2007, 04:18 PM

@_@; These are killing me.

ShyGuy 1:
Equip: N/A
Action: Build Mana Pool

ShyGuy 2:
Equip: N/A
Action: Build Mana Pool

ShyGuy 3:
Equip: N/A
Action: Build Mana Pool

ShyGuy 4:
Equip: N/A
Action: Coin Gathering

ShyGuy 5:
Equip: N/A
Action: Coin Gathering.

ShyGuy 6:
Equip: Money Bag
Action: Coin Gathering

ShyGuy 7:
Equip: Money Bag
Action: Coin Gathering

ShyGuy 8:
Equip: Money Bag
Action: Coin Gathering

ShyGuy 9:
Equip: Money Bag
Action: Coin Gathering

Uh...40 Rations, and...Uh...I can barely keep myself alive. Are you sure this system works well, Dux? I don't mean to sound whiny, but I'll never make profit at this rate if I don't actually have any coins to invest.

Oh, or maybe buying in bulk, you know?

50 Rations for 75c, or something.

**Prince Toad** · 06-09-2007, 05:10 PM

Toads 7-10 (moneybag and warp pipe): RG, 6 energy. (112 c)

Buying 4 moneybags. Equipping them on Toads 3-6. (12 c)

Toads 3-6: RG, 6 energy. (108 c)

Buying 2 moneybags. Equipping them on Toads 1-2. (58 c)

Toads 1-2: RG, 6 energy. (106 c)

Buying 40 rations. (26 c)

The Willful Wanderer · 06-09-2007, 09:30 PM

You know, if you go to the trouble of using Coin Shower scrolls with every available energy from those Shyguys after having the Mana Pool built, your coin increase per turn (aside from that from Pipes and Bags) goes up 50%, not counting the bonus points to magic that Shy Guys have?

True, you have to do it incrementally so you have the money to spend on the scrolls, rather than all in one lump, but it's still a huge difference. It also helps to do your turn out on paper once or maybe even twice before posting it.

Note: Coin Shower costs 5c and gives you 11c for one Energy. A 6-coin gain as opposed to the 4-coin gain from Gather command. Even for me, now at 120c per 4E Toad, that's vastly more efficient than spending on Bags and Pipes now. You have 6E at least per unit to spend on Coin Shower, and your units only cost 100c each. Since you get the Mana Pool immediately, rather than at the end of the turn, that also means you can Coin Shower twice with each of your builders, too. Coin Shower is a huge advantage to you, making your units as much as 36c/turn gain instead of a measly 16- and that's with no bags, pipes, or shrooms (which are all less efficient than more units now for you or me anyways). Heck, the same turn you finish the pool, your units that ate all 4 energy on the pool *still* gain 12c each for you, which is only 4 less than they would if they'd just sat and gathered instead of building. Also, so long as you have 5c, you can wind up as many Coin Showers as you have the Energy for, regardless, since you can, if needed, go one at a time- after one Coin Shower, you do two, then four, then eight, then seventeen....

**Prince Toad** · 06-09-2007, 09:59 PM

...wow.

The Willful Wanderer · 06-09-2007, 10:18 PM

After all, looking at this, SephKirby's only real mistake was getting that Caravan before he needed it. If he hadn't done that, he'd have gotten the Mana Pool up this turn and had more spare cash for rations.

The thing to remember in a strategy game is that there's no point to making an investment like that third Caravan. It doesn't do anything when he's not using it to support units, there's no limit to when it can be built, and it doesn't require time to pass to become active, so there was no advantage at all to crafting it right off the bat. Especially since it ate not only 50c, but 10 Energy that could have generated an addtional 40c.

Dux is not you · 06-09-2007, 10:25 PM

How long would it take to offset the Mana pool's cost with the gain from casting Coin shower?

The Willful Wanderer · 06-10-2007, 12:02 AM

In general, not very long- you may notice, I *already did*.

For him, let's see. At 4c/E gathering, Mana Pool effectively costs 30x4+50c, or 170c. However, you have to keep in mind that not only does it increase his base max coin increase per turn by 2x4xShyGuys, but it also adds an additional 2x6xShyGuys bonus from his ShyGuys' bonus energy for magic-only. Since he has 9 ShyGuys, just getting the Mana Pool, that same turn he also gains an additional 9x2x6=108c purely from bonus energy. If he still has (170-108)/2 (Or 62/2, which is 31) base energy left on his ShyGuys immediately after building the Mana Pool to spend on Coin Shower, that instantly defrays the cost. Of course, that's 8 more ShyGuys which he clearly doesn't have. It's much easier to count it as defrayed completely within 2 turns on just the bonus energy that gets turned into coins.

Basically, the turn AFTER the turn he completes the Mana Pool, he'll have a net gain there of 38 coins, even if in that same turn after he completes the Mana Pool, he has all his ShyGuys Explore and Build. 38 coins of the extra Magic energy (or 6+1/3 Coin Shower boosts) and the extra 2c/energy for all the other gathering he does that next turn is pure gravy, as is ALL the Coin Shower from the extra magic energy each turn after that (at least 108c/turn if he spends all that bonus energy on Coin Shower and makes no new ShyGuys) AND 1/3 of his Coin gains from the 'spend on anything' Energy that he uses to gain Coin for the rest of the game.

Toad and I, on the other hand, have the inverse advantage- rather than tons of extra Magic Energy to spend on Coin Showers to defray (and quickly swamp out) the cost of the Mana Pool, we simply both build it extremely easily- For Toad, it's 1&1/2 turns of energy that he doesn't need for Warp Pipes anymore, or for Caravans ATM, and for me- well, I already built it.

Once you have a Mana Pool, or the ability to build one, the Warp Pipes and Moneybags are simply completely obsolete as Coin gain- even with 120c Toads. I could spend 100c and 20AE for +20c/turn, or 125c for +20c/turn, or I could spend 120c for +16c AND 2AE per turn. And next turn, when I can afford a Flagpole (and pay all the build energy costs out of my AE), that becomes 108c for an effective +16c (after Ration costs) and 2AE (which save me 8c, making it a 24c/day efficiency).

Mushrooms aren't even worth considering as moneygain (at twice the price of a Moneybag), their value is in their flexibility of energy- one for Exploring or Magic or Building every turn.

You need the Warp Pipes and Moneybags early on, but once you have a Mana Pool, most especially with ShyGuys like SephiKirb is using (100c for +28c per turn if turned totally to gathering), it's much more efficient to start building a unit base. (It also provides a good impetus to start adding more units that you'll be able to use later for exploration and combat.)

As with any strategy game that includes resources, the first and most vital thing to do is to ensure not only stability, but a steady increase in cash flow.

For any Non-Toad, Caravans are relatively expensive- 50c plus 10AE- or 50c plus an effective 40c, for anyone who's spending regular energy (non-Toad units). That's 90c- or 18c additional per unit bought. Toads, however, provide 2AE per, in addition to their 4E- which means that one caravan full of Toads only needs to spend their bonus energy for 1 turn and 50c to get a Caravan. So where Prince Toad and I can easily oops on a Caravan with no worries, for SephiKirb, that's 90c he could have used to get 45 more Rations so he could have had his Mana Pool this turn and some spare Rations additional besides what he'll need next turn. Or to get another ShyGuy, which would have gotten him a lot more coin over time even if he would have had to spend 10c more overall to get it.

SephirothKirby · 06-10-2007, 04:01 PM

Wow. That's...That's, something, all right.

Selene is very smart. But she doesn't want to be my friend.

So...Will Day 5 be up before I leave the library?

Rainbow Dash · 06-10-2007, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dux_is_me

ChunkyKong12345 (Goombas):
Notes: You mean 6E.

...what

06-08-2007, 02:10 PM	#41
The Willful Wanderer Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Aisle 12, between the kumquats and the radicchio. Gender: Posts: 2,325 Thanks: 168 Thanked 137 Times in 90 Posts	Now we're bringin' it up to speed. Start Day 3: 127C 0R 24E 6GE 14AE 4PS Purchase: Ration x24 (-48C, +24R) Purchase: Money Bag x3 (-75 c, +3GE) Resource Result: 4C, 24R, 24E, 9GE, 14AE, 4PS Work: Gather x33 (Cost: 24E, 9GE) Resource Result: 4C, 24R, 0E, 0GE, 14AE, 4PS END DAY Gather x33 @ 4C each = +132C Toad x6 @4R each = -24R Camp Contains: 2x Caravan 3x Toadbag 3x Toadbagpipe Last edited by The Willful Wanderer; 06-08-2007 at 02:23 PM.

06-09-2007, 03:11 PM	#50
The Willful Wanderer Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Aisle 12, between the kumquats and the radicchio. Gender: Posts: 2,325 Thanks: 168 Thanked 137 Times in 90 Posts	Fuse = lit. Start Day 3: 136C 0R 24E 9GE 26AE 4PS Purchase: Mana Pool (-50C, -4E, -26AE) Purchase and Use: Coin Shower x10 (-50C, +110C, -10E) Purchase and Use: Coin Shower x10 (-50C, +110C, -10E) Resource Result: 206C, 0R, 0E, 9GE, 0AE, 4PS Purchase: Toad x1 (-120C, +4E, +2AE, -1PS) Resource Result: 86C, 0R, 4E, 9GE, 2AE, 3PS Purchase and Use: Coin Shower x4 (-20C, +44C, -4E) Resource Result: 110C, 0R, 0E, 9GE, 2AE, 3PS Work: Gather x9 (-9GE) Resource Result: 146C, 0R, 0E, 0GE, 2AE, 3PS Purchase: Rations x28 (-56C, +28R) Resource Result: 90C,28R, 0E, 0GE, 2AE, 3PS END DAY Gather x9 @ 4C each = +36C Toad x7 @4R each = -28R Camp Contains: 2x Caravan 1x Mana Pool 1x Toad 3x Toadbag 3x Toadbagpipe

06-09-2007, 03:26 PM	#51
Breadlord Dragoshi Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Somewhere. Possibly Somewheres. Gender: Posts: 1,167 Thanks: 39 Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts Blog Entries: 1	I buy not one, not two, not three, but *FOUR* Warp Pipes (-16E, -80c) and equip them to the Koopas with Moneybags, who all Gather Resources (132c), then the other four Koopas go Exploring. (Exploring, 16E), buy 2 Super Shrooms (-100c) and equip them to two of the Koopas with Moneybags and Warp Pipes, then have them Gather Resources with that extra energy, if possible. (44c). EDIT: Sorry for all the editing of my coin total if anyone's noticed. I've been calculating. And I misread something. @_@ Last edited by Breadlord Dragoshi; 06-09-2007 at 03:37 PM.

06-09-2007, 04:18 PM	#52
SephirothKirby Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Those who criticize our generation forget who raised it. Gender: Posts: 7,055 Thanks: 365 Thanked 737 Times in 433 Posts	@_@; These are killing me. ShyGuy 1: Equip: N/A Action: Build Mana Pool ShyGuy 2: Equip: N/A Action: Build Mana Pool ShyGuy 3: Equip: N/A Action: Build Mana Pool ShyGuy 4: Equip: N/A Action: Coin Gathering ShyGuy 5: Equip: N/A Action: Coin Gathering. ShyGuy 6: Equip: Money Bag Action: Coin Gathering ShyGuy 7: Equip: Money Bag Action: Coin Gathering ShyGuy 8: Equip: Money Bag Action: Coin Gathering ShyGuy 9: Equip: Money Bag Action: Coin Gathering Uh...40 Rations, and...Uh...I can barely keep myself alive. Are you sure this system works well, Dux? I don't mean to sound whiny, but I'll never make profit at this rate if I don't actually have any coins to invest. Oh, or maybe buying in bulk, you know? 50 Rations for 75c, or something. Last edited by SephirothKirby; 06-09-2007 at 05:23 PM.

06-09-2007, 05:10 PM	#53
Prince Toad PC Games and Tech Mod Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rookery Gender: Posts: 11,720 Thanks: 50 Thanked 65 Times in 56 Posts	Work, my Toads! Work... Toads 7-10 (moneybag and warp pipe): RG, 6 energy. (112 c) Buying 4 moneybags. Equipping them on Toads 3-6. (12 c) Toads 3-6: RG, 6 energy. (108 c) Buying 2 moneybags. Equipping them on Toads 1-2. (58 c) Toads 1-2: RG, 6 energy. (106 c) Buying 40 rations. (26 c)

06-08-2007, 04:07 PM	#42
Prince Toad PC Games and Tech Mod Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rookery Gender: Posts: 11,720 Thanks: 50 Thanked 65 Times in 56 Posts	Toads 1-8: Spend extra crafting energy to create 4 Warp Pipes. Equip them on Toads 6-9. (0 c) Toad 1: RG, 5 energy. (20 c) Toads 9-10: Spend extra crafting energy to create another Warp Pipe. Equip it on Toad 10. (0 c) Toads 2-6: RG, 5 energy. (100 c) Buying 4 moneybags; equipping them on Toads 7-10. Toads 7-10: RG, 6 energy. (96 c) Buying 40 rations. (16 c)

06-08-2007, 04:31 PM	#43
SephirothKirby Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Those who criticize our generation forget who raised it. Gender: Posts: 7,055 Thanks: 365 Thanked 737 Times in 433 Posts	Gotta be more careful. I was afraid that would happen, I just didn't take the time to figure out if it would. ShyGuy 1: Equip: N/A Action: Coin Gathering ShyGuy 2: Equip: N/A Action: Coin Gathering ShyGuy 3: Equip: N/A Action: Coin Gathering ShyGuy 4: Equip: N/A Action: Coin Gathering ShyGuy 5: Equip: N/A Action: Coin Gathering. ShyGuy 6: Equip: Money Bag Action: Coin Gathering ShyGuy 7: Equip: Money Bag Action: Coin Gathering ShyGuy 8: Equip: Money Bag Action: Coin Gathering ShyGuy 9: Equip: Money Bag Action: Coin Gathering Then I buy 80 Rations. I should have 160c. Man, Rations are far more hindering than pay was. Though, a clever player should be able to keep his funds up. I don't know how I let myself get behind.

06-08-2007, 07:20 PM	#44
Prince Toad PC Games and Tech Mod Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rookery Gender: Posts: 11,720 Thanks: 50 Thanked 65 Times in 56 Posts	Rations are cheaper than pay.

06-08-2007, 10:20 PM	#45
Dux is not you Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Not Columbia Gender: Posts: 1,976 Thanks: 92 Thanked 113 Times in 74 Posts Blog Entries: 1	No, they aren't. Rations cost you 8c (6c for Goombas). Pay was always 5c.

06-08-2007, 11:14 PM	#46
Prince Toad PC Games and Tech Mod Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rookery Gender: Posts: 11,720 Thanks: 50 Thanked 65 Times in 56 Posts	Oh yeah. I thought it was 10c for some reason. ...bah.

06-09-2007, 01:17 AM	#47
Dux is not you Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Not Columbia Gender: Posts: 1,976 Thanks: 92 Thanked 113 Times in 74 Posts Blog Entries: 1	Chunky has until tomorrow morning to post his actions, or he'll be frozen for day 4.

06-09-2007, 11:52 AM	#48
Rainbow Dash been dreamin', i've been waitin' Join Date: Jan 2001 Gender: Posts: 23,789 Thanks: 168 Thanked 1,120 Times in 677 Posts	Build a Warp Pipe. Goomba 1 - Build Warp Pipe (-3e) Goomba 2 - Build Warp Pipe (-1e), Resource Gather (-2e) Goomba 3 - Resource Gather (-3e) Goomba 4 - Resource Gather (-3e) Goomba 5 (Moneybag/Super Mushroom/Warp Pipe) - Resource Gather (-4e) Goomba 6 (Moneybag/Super Mushroom/Warp Pipe) - Resource Gather (-4e) Goomba 7 (Moneybag/Super Mushroom/Warp Pipe) - Resource Gather (-4e)

06-09-2007, 09:30 PM	#54
The Willful Wanderer Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Aisle 12, between the kumquats and the radicchio. Gender: Posts: 2,325 Thanks: 168 Thanked 137 Times in 90 Posts	Hey, SephKirby? You know, if you go to the trouble of using Coin Shower scrolls with every available energy from those Shyguys after having the Mana Pool built, your coin increase per turn (aside from that from Pipes and Bags) goes up 50%, not counting the bonus points to magic that Shy Guys have? True, you have to do it incrementally so you have the money to spend on the scrolls, rather than all in one lump, but it's still a huge difference. It also helps to do your turn out on paper once or maybe even twice before posting it. Note: Coin Shower costs 5c and gives you 11c for one Energy. A 6-coin gain as opposed to the 4-coin gain from Gather command. Even for me, now at 120c per 4E Toad, that's vastly more efficient than spending on Bags and Pipes now. You have 6E at least per unit to spend on Coin Shower, and your units only cost 100c each. Since you get the Mana Pool immediately, rather than at the end of the turn, that also means you can Coin Shower twice with each of your builders, too. Coin Shower is a huge advantage to you, making your units as much as 36c/turn gain instead of a measly 16- and that's with no bags, pipes, or shrooms (which are all less efficient than more units now for you or me anyways). Heck, the same turn you finish the pool, your units that ate all 4 energy on the pool still gain 12c each for you, which is only 4 less than they would if they'd just sat and gathered instead of building. Also, so long as you have 5c, you can wind up as many Coin Showers as you have the Energy for, regardless, since you can, if needed, go one at a time- after one Coin Shower, you do two, then four, then eight, then seventeen.... Last edited by The Willful Wanderer; 06-09-2007 at 09:41 PM.

06-09-2007, 09:59 PM	#55
Prince Toad PC Games and Tech Mod Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rookery Gender: Posts: 11,720 Thanks: 50 Thanked 65 Times in 56 Posts	...wow.

06-09-2007, 10:18 PM	#56
The Willful Wanderer Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Aisle 12, between the kumquats and the radicchio. Gender: Posts: 2,325 Thanks: 168 Thanked 137 Times in 90 Posts	It's pretty simple, really. After all, looking at this, SephKirby's only real mistake was getting that Caravan before he needed it. If he hadn't done that, he'd have gotten the Mana Pool up this turn and had more spare cash for rations. The thing to remember in a strategy game is that there's no point to making an investment like that third Caravan. It doesn't do anything when he's not using it to support units, there's no limit to when it can be built, and it doesn't require time to pass to become active, so there was no advantage at all to crafting it right off the bat. Especially since it ate not only 50c, but 10 Energy that could have generated an addtional 40c.

06-09-2007, 10:25 PM	#57
Dux is not you Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Not Columbia Gender: Posts: 1,976 Thanks: 92 Thanked 113 Times in 74 Posts Blog Entries: 1	How long would it take to offset the Mana pool's cost with the gain from casting Coin shower?

06-10-2007, 12:02 AM	#58
The Willful Wanderer Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Aisle 12, between the kumquats and the radicchio. Gender: Posts: 2,325 Thanks: 168 Thanked 137 Times in 90 Posts	Ah. Well, In general, not very long- you may notice, I already did. For him, let's see. At 4c/E gathering, Mana Pool effectively costs 30x4+50c, or 170c. However, you have to keep in mind that not only does it increase his base max coin increase per turn by 2x4xShyGuys, but it also adds an additional 2x6xShyGuys bonus from his ShyGuys' bonus energy for magic-only. Since he has 9 ShyGuys, just getting the Mana Pool, that same turn he also gains an additional 9x2x6=108c purely from bonus energy. If he still has (170-108)/2 (Or 62/2, which is 31) base energy left on his ShyGuys immediately after building the Mana Pool to spend on Coin Shower, that instantly defrays the cost. Of course, that's 8 more ShyGuys which he clearly doesn't have. It's much easier to count it as defrayed completely within 2 turns on just the bonus energy that gets turned into coins. Basically, the turn AFTER the turn he completes the Mana Pool, he'll have a net gain there of 38 coins, even if in that same turn after he completes the Mana Pool, he has all his ShyGuys Explore and Build. 38 coins of the extra Magic energy (or 6+1/3 Coin Shower boosts) and the extra 2c/energy for all the other gathering he does that next turn is pure gravy, as is ALL the Coin Shower from the extra magic energy each turn after that (at least 108c/turn if he spends all that bonus energy on Coin Shower and makes no new ShyGuys) AND 1/3 of his Coin gains from the 'spend on anything' Energy that he uses to gain Coin for the rest of the game. Toad and I, on the other hand, have the inverse advantage- rather than tons of extra Magic Energy to spend on Coin Showers to defray (and quickly swamp out) the cost of the Mana Pool, we simply both build it extremely easily- For Toad, it's 1&1/2 turns of energy that he doesn't need for Warp Pipes anymore, or for Caravans ATM, and for me- well, I already built it. Once you have a Mana Pool, or the ability to build one, the Warp Pipes and Moneybags are simply completely obsolete as Coin gain- even with 120c Toads. I could spend 100c and 20AE for +20c/turn, or 125c for +20c/turn, or I could spend 120c for +16c AND 2AE per turn. And next turn, when I can afford a Flagpole (and pay all the build energy costs out of my AE), that becomes 108c for an effective +16c (after Ration costs) and 2AE (which save me 8c, making it a 24c/day efficiency). Mushrooms aren't even worth considering as moneygain (at twice the price of a Moneybag), their value is in their flexibility of energy- one for Exploring or Magic or Building every turn. You need the Warp Pipes and Moneybags early on, but once you have a Mana Pool, most especially with ShyGuys like SephiKirb is using (100c for +28c per turn if turned totally to gathering), it's much more efficient to start building a unit base. (It also provides a good impetus to start adding more units that you'll be able to use later for exploration and combat.) As with any strategy game that includes resources, the first and most vital thing to do is to ensure not only stability, but a steady increase in cash flow. For any Non-Toad, Caravans are relatively expensive- 50c plus 10AE- or 50c plus an effective 40c, for anyone who's spending regular energy (non-Toad units). That's 90c- or 18c additional per unit bought. Toads, however, provide 2AE per, in addition to their 4E- which means that one caravan full of Toads only needs to spend their bonus energy for 1 turn and 50c to get a Caravan. So where Prince Toad and I can easily oops on a Caravan with no worries, for SephiKirb, that's 90c he could have used to get 45 more Rations so he could have had his Mana Pool this turn and some spare Rations additional besides what he'll need next turn. Or to get another ShyGuy, which would have gotten him a lot more coin over time even if he would have had to spend 10c more overall to get it. Last edited by The Willful Wanderer; 06-10-2007 at 12:11 AM.

06-10-2007, 04:01 PM	#59
SephirothKirby Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Those who criticize our generation forget who raised it. Gender: Posts: 7,055 Thanks: 365 Thanked 737 Times in 433 Posts	Wow. That's...That's, something, all right. Selene is very smart. But she doesn't want to be my friend. So...Will Day 5 be up before I leave the library?