What is self-defense? - Page 2

c_jks · 05-20-2004, 10:24 PM

If someone shoots you in the arm, and you shoot them in the chest, that's justified by law. It's just an extreme of the same thing. If someone is relentlessly coming at you, how are you going to stop them?

AJ Middleton · 05-20-2004, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by c_jks:
If someone shoots you in the arm, and you shoot them in the chest, that's justified by law.

Uhh, no it's not.

Gamer Chris · 05-20-2004, 10:54 PM

What about if it were to be proportional? Like you get punched in the face, you punch the guy back in the face etc.

---------------------------------

~Gamer Chris

Toad556 · 05-20-2004, 10:58 PM

My policy is: You hit me, I hit you

DELICIOUS POISON · 05-20-2004, 11:05 PM

I can't be expected not to stand up for myself.

c_jks · 05-21-2004, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Bolt:
Uhh, no it's not.

It's not? Since when did they get rid of the self-defense plea?

***CaptHayfever*** · 05-21-2004, 04:28 PM

It's 2nd-degree murder or manslaughter or something, instead of 1st-degree murder. Still illegal, but somewhat less severe sentencing.

Bolt, AI & LuigiMan kinda have it.
And as for just walking away, they follow you. They follow you until they can catch you or until you get somewhere where they can be seen by someone who cares.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

AJ Middleton · 05-21-2004, 05:39 PM

Ok, hold it.

If someone shoots you, you don't shoot them back for revenge. If everyone did that the whole legal and criminal justice systems would go to waste. It's illegal to be a vigilante, and you can't do it hiding under "self-defense."

In school, fighting tends to be against the rules, even in self-defense. Let's say that you're the original attacker now. You go up to some kid and push him. He turns around and knocks your teeth out. Somehow, I don't think you'll be saying: "I deserved that! It was self-defense!" Chances are you'll fight back and/or press charges. And by then, the line between "attacker" and "victim" become very, very blurred.

In contrast, if you keep pushing the kid and harassing him, someone will eventually see and break it up. Or, if YOU end up knocking his teeth out, he'll be free while you're clearly the one who is wrong.

I think the scenario of someone following you forever is unrealistic, both in school and on the streets. In school, you go to administration. Outside, you go to somebody with authority. Besides, "defending" yourself because you *think* someone is after you won't hold up well in a court.

But I know, pride is a major issue. If people could just push their pride away this wouldn't be a big issue. You have the right to fight back all you want, but just be prepared to face the consequences.

c_jks · 05-21-2004, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaptHayfever:
It's 2nd-degree murder or manslaughter or something, instead of 1st-degree murder. Still illegal, but somewhat less severe sentencing.

It is? Huh, see if I ever go to my parents for law questions again. Never mind. And Bolt, I wasn't talking about revenge, I was thinking along the lines of kill-or-be-killed, but forget about that example.

Quote:

In school, fighting tends to be against the rules, even in self-defense. Let's say that you're the original attacker now. You go up to some kid and push him. He turns around and knocks your teeth out. Somehow, I don't think you'll be saying: "I deserved that! It was self-defense!" Chances are you'll fight back and/or press charges. And by then, the line between "attacker" and "victim" become very, very blurred.

But i'm not talking about pushing, Bolt! I'm talking about if someone walks up to you on the street and slams you in the gut. As I see it, there are 3 choices.
1)You run away. Depending on the person, but I doubt someone would do that.
2)You fight back. there are chances that if they aren't joking, they're going to hit you again, so you get them before they get you. Plus, you'd want to know why they hit you.
3)Tell someone...what?! Who are you going to tell? Run into someone's house and say "Help, someone's attacking me!"? That's a bit extreme compared to fighting back.

AJ Middleton · 05-21-2004, 06:32 PM

Like I said, fight back all you want, but there ARE serious consequences. Street fighting is definitely illegal.

jvh · 05-21-2004, 06:54 PM

Maybe it's just me, but if somebody strikes at me, i'm killin' their ass.
You guys say I should be sent to jail if I did that, well so be it, I don't give a ****.

**Wyborn** · 05-21-2004, 08:11 PM

I don't believe in using lethal force unless someone is tyring to kill you and obviously is not going to stop. In that case I would kill them to dead - maybe not, but I'd make damn sure he didn't try anymore. That's irrelevant.

In the case of school or the street, if someone belts me across the mouth for having a differing opinion, I'd probably try to just rub it off. This has happened to me before.

However, if they come at me again, I believe that anything I do within reason to keep him from hitting me again is justifiable. The law is irrelevant, since the topic asks for personal opinions. Regardless of how the law looks at it, I'm under the impression that if you are attacked and there is nobody around who's going to put the guy in a headlock (and I know there are usually people who will, I've been one of them on more than one occasion) then you have every moral right to knock the unholy Hell out of the guy.

Just saying.

[ May 21, 2004, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: Wyborn ]

The Joker · 05-21-2004, 09:07 PM

For me "Death" is the only reply to physical violence. If some one strikes at me physicaly even if thier intention is only to damage and not murder, my initial reply would be to respond with lethal force. It is my belief that violence should never stop short of injury. Those willing to harm your should be willing to kill you if they are not willing to take your life then they have no business in trying to harm you. For me Lethal force is an acceptable means of self-defense against any who intend to do me harm whether they attack bare fist or with armed weapons.

c_jks · 05-21-2004, 09:51 PM

I agree with all of you, most of all Wyborn.

Found California (my state) law that states:

Quote:

A pupil may not be suspended from school or recommended for expulsion, unless the superintendent or the principal of the school in which the pupil is enrolled determines that the pupil has committed an act as defined pursuant to any of subdivisions (a) to (q), inclusive...willfully used force or violence upon the person of another, except in self-defense.

That's interesting. Apparently it's illegal for a school to suspend or expel you if you defend yourself. Here's the source.

Found this little tidbit for my search for the above article...

Quote:

Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is punishable as follows...

Kinda off topic, but thought I should point it out. Like the other, here's the source.

AJ Middleton · 05-22-2004, 12:21 AM

^That's Cali for ya!

I wonder what constitutes self-defense?

**Wyborn** · 05-22-2004, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Bolt:
^That's Cali for ya!

I wonder what constitutes self-defense?

If I had to make a blind guess it would be if you responded to a physical attack that occurred without proper provocation - which is completely subjective, but I think most people in "charge" will be able to differentiate between the two.

If I remember, self-defense is legal in Louisiana, too. Where the hell do YOU live again, Bolt?

***CaptHayfever*** · 05-22-2004, 12:46 AM

Quote:

It is? Huh, see if I ever go to my parents for law questions again.

Well, they still have to go to trial, where there's a chance they'll be aquitted.

Quote:

Where the hell do YOU live again, Bolt?

This is going to get very ironic very quickly.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

AJ Middleton · 05-22-2004, 12:51 AM

I live in NY. I don't know our state laws by heart, but "self-defense" seems so...odd...to me. But laws aren't meant to be specific anyway.

**Wyborn** · 05-22-2004, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Bolt:
I live in NY. I don't know our state laws by heart, but "self-defense" seems so...odd...to me. But laws aren't meant to be specific anyway.

I don't know why you come across with a self-abusive personality, but by God there it is, the man does not believe in the principles of defending himself. =P

jvh · 05-22-2004, 01:01 AM

By "odd", do you mean vague?

05-20-2004, 10:24 PM	#21
c_jks Senior Member Join Date: May 2000 Location: Sacramento, CA, USA Posts: 5,631 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Points: 3,038.00 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 3,538.00 Donate	If someone shoots you in the arm, and you shoot them in the chest, that's justified by law. It's just an extreme of the same thing. If someone is relentlessly coming at you, how are you going to stop them?

05-20-2004, 10:54 PM	#23
Gamer Chris Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Long Island, New York. Posts: 4,534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Points: 1,764.00 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 2,264.00 Donate	What about if it were to be proportional? Like you get punched in the face, you punch the guy back in the face etc. --------------------------------- ~Gamer Chris

05-20-2004, 10:58 PM	#24
Toad556 Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Pffft <insert witty comment here> Gender: Posts: 687 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Points: 29,368.71 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 29,868.71 Donate	My policy is: You hit me, I hit you

05-20-2004, 11:05 PM	#25
DELICIOUS POISON Retro Nintendo Supermod Art & Literature Mod Metroid Mod Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I rub my tilde all over your asterisk Gender: Posts: 16,563 Thanks: 554 Thanked 1,590 Times in 784 Posts Points: 6,627.69 Bank: 3,462,620.43 Total Points: 3,469,248.12 Donate	I can't be expected not to stand up for myself.

05-21-2004, 04:28 PM	#27
*CaptHayfever* Smash Supermod Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: (n) - the place where I am Gender: Posts: 19,783 Thanks: 235 Thanked 942 Times in 574 Posts Points: 117,372.76 Bank: 1,811.26 Total Points: 119,184.03 Donate	It's 2nd-degree murder or manslaughter or something, instead of 1st-degree murder. Still illegal, but somewhat less severe sentencing. Bolt, AI & LuigiMan kinda have it. And as for just walking away, they follow you. They follow you until they can catch you or until you get somewhere where they can be seen by someone who cares. And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

05-21-2004, 05:39 PM	#28
AJ Middleton Banned Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 0 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Points: 2,236.00 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 2,736.00 Donate	Ok, hold it. If someone shoots you, you don't shoot them back for revenge. If everyone did that the whole legal and criminal justice systems would go to waste. It's illegal to be a vigilante, and you can't do it hiding under "self-defense." In school, fighting tends to be against the rules, even in self-defense. Let's say that you're the original attacker now. You go up to some kid and push him. He turns around and knocks your teeth out. Somehow, I don't think you'll be saying: "I deserved that! It was self-defense!" Chances are you'll fight back and/or press charges. And by then, the line between "attacker" and "victim" become very, very blurred. In contrast, if you keep pushing the kid and harassing him, someone will eventually see and break it up. Or, if YOU end up knocking his teeth out, he'll be free while you're clearly the one who is wrong. I think the scenario of someone following you forever is unrealistic, both in school and on the streets. In school, you go to administration. Outside, you go to somebody with authority. Besides, "defending" yourself because you think someone is after you won't hold up well in a court. But I know, pride is a major issue. If people could just push their pride away this wouldn't be a big issue. You have the right to fight back all you want, but just be prepared to face the consequences.

05-21-2004, 06:32 PM	#30
AJ Middleton Banned Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 0 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Points: 2,236.00 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 2,736.00 Donate	Like I said, fight back all you want, but there ARE serious consequences. Street fighting is definitely illegal.

05-21-2004, 06:54 PM	#31
jvh Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 284 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Points: 717.00 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 1,217.00 Donate	Maybe it's just me, but if somebody strikes at me, i'm killin' their ass. You guys say I should be sent to jail if I did that, well so be it, I don't give a ****.

05-21-2004, 08:11 PM	#32
Wyborn Zelda Mod Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: All over the place Gender: Posts: 12,326 Thanks: 86 Thanked 439 Times in 269 Posts Points: 19,195.94 Bank: 82,155.51 Total Points: 101,351.45 Donate	I don't believe in using lethal force unless someone is tyring to kill you and obviously is not going to stop. In that case I would kill them to dead - maybe not, but I'd make damn sure he didn't try anymore. That's irrelevant. In the case of school or the street, if someone belts me across the mouth for having a differing opinion, I'd probably try to just rub it off. This has happened to me before. However, if they come at me again, I believe that anything I do within reason to keep him from hitting me again is justifiable. The law is irrelevant, since the topic asks for personal opinions. Regardless of how the law looks at it, I'm under the impression that if you are attacked and there is nobody around who's going to put the guy in a headlock (and I know there are usually people who will, I've been one of them on more than one occasion) then you have every moral right to knock the unholy Hell out of the guy. Just saying. [ May 21, 2004, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: Wyborn ]

05-21-2004, 09:07 PM	#33
The Joker I am the God of Vengeance...I am Joker the Vampire Lord Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: The Planet of Eternal Darkness Gender: Posts: 10,232 Thanks: 2,503 Thanked 321 Times in 222 Posts Points: 191.04 Bank: 6,044.47 Total Points: 6,235.51 Donate	For me "Death" is the only reply to physical violence. If some one strikes at me physicaly even if thier intention is only to damage and not murder, my initial reply would be to respond with lethal force. It is my belief that violence should never stop short of injury. Those willing to harm your should be willing to kill you if they are not willing to take your life then they have no business in trying to harm you. For me Lethal force is an acceptable means of self-defense against any who intend to do me harm whether they attack bare fist or with armed weapons.

05-22-2004, 12:21 AM	#35
AJ Middleton Banned Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 0 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Points: 2,236.00 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 2,736.00 Donate	^That's Cali for ya! I wonder what constitutes self-defense?

05-22-2004, 12:51 AM	#38
AJ Middleton Banned Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 0 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Points: 2,236.00 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 2,736.00 Donate	I live in NY. I don't know our state laws by heart, but "self-defense" seems so...odd...to me. But laws aren't meant to be specific anyway.

05-22-2004, 01:01 AM	#40
jvh Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 284 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Points: 717.00 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 1,217.00 Donate	By "odd", do you mean vague?