Let's talk about God...

Inferno Dragon · 05-02-2005, 03:28 PM

so what do you think, is God male? female? too powerful to intervene in our daily lives without drasticly changing the world? the same being in all religions? this is where you can post your thoghts about the allmighty Creator of the universe. I will not judge you for your beliefs but anyway here's my belief.

I think that God the allmighty is the same as the supreme diety for all the ancient and modern religions, and that God is a woman. and that She's probably tending to a far off corner of the universe right now leaving us to fend for ourselves here on this back-water podunk world EARTH.

[ May 02, 2005, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Inferno Dragon, king of the dragons ]

***CaptHayfever*** · 05-02-2005, 06:48 PM

I'd probably be least obstructive by just answering the questions as I see it.

God is above gender. Male & female are created for reproductive purposes; the eternal have no need to reproduce (note I didn't say immortal, I said eternal. there's a difference).
As an almighty being, God can intervene in any way, however small & subtle or big & blatant, but chooses not to micromanage everything. Furthermore, being omnipotent, God isn't really leaving us alone, even if God's not actually doing anything at the moment.
The god of all 3 major semitic religions is the same supreme being. However, as for the rest of that question, keep in mind that not all the ancient religions had a supreme being. Zeus/Jupiter was often as fallible as a human, and Odin actually was just a human who ate magic food to stay alive.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

Erdawn Il Deus · 05-02-2005, 07:15 PM

^Thank you, Cap'n. I agree. I see God as more of a distant parent than anything -- watching us grow, and wanting us to grow and discover what God has granted us in creation with our own eyes, and abilities. Science is not the enemy of religion, but a means to an end and something God gifted us with (our minds, clod! not science itself!).

Yawr.

**L007 is Undecided** · 05-02-2005, 07:25 PM

Indeed, God is above gender. However, when Jesus was born, God was always refered to as The Father. This is probably due to that he acted as a father to Jesus, caring for him. I never really cared about the issue, but when it goes as far as some people wanting a change in the Bible for God to be a woman, that is just pathetic. Anyone who goes as far as that should really consider if they actually know anything about their religion.

AJ Middleton · 05-02-2005, 08:03 PM

God is referred to as a "He" because male Christian/Jews/Muslims were the first to write about Him. Pagans were more facinated by women, so many of them hailed a Goddess. IMO, it doesn't matter at all.

The Missing Link · 05-02-2005, 09:00 PM

Beautifully written, L007. [img]smile.gif[/img]

"There are some who call me... Link?"

"Carpe Gaium Domesticum!" (Seize the Cucco!)
Zelda: The Grand Adventures | Triforce MUCK
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Inferno Dragon · 05-02-2005, 09:12 PM

well God could appear to us as anything he/she wanted us to see God as. God could appear as a Woman, a Man, an animal, or some strange being we coulden't even imagine existed. honestly I think God, while in heaven, is just this orb of eternal light that shines with love across the universe but in a physical form God could be anything that God wanted to be.

oh and I agree that science should not be viewed as a tool against God but rather a tool to show God how much we have develloped since our creation.

but I do have a problem wth the fact that some Christians believe that God controlls everything we do on this world. but if this were true then it would defeat the purpose of free will and honistly I can't deal with the belief that we ar not in controll of our lives.

***CaptHayfever*** · 05-02-2005, 11:01 PM

^Right, that's what I was saying. Adding to that, even, IF God did control everything we said & did, then salation would just be a random dice roll, which doesn't make sense in any belief system.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

The Missing Link · 05-03-2005, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaptHayfever:
IF God did control everything we said & did, then salation would just be a random dice roll,

I presume that word in there would be "salvation," yes?

Anyways, that's not entirely true. If our lives are indeed completely predetermined for us, then our salvation would be, from the beginning, predetermined as well. To quote Einstein, "God doesn't play dice."

"There are some who call me... Link?"

"Carpe Gaium Domesticum!" (Seize the Cucco!)
Zelda: The Grand Adventures | Triforce MUCK
ザ行方不明リンク
悪いユウモアの賢人

***CaptHayfever*** · 05-03-2005, 12:37 PM

Yes, that is what the word is supposed to be. [img]smile.gif[/img]

You know what I meant with that analogy.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

Shadowking · 05-03-2005, 03:03 PM

All I know is, God doesn't control everything. If He did, then some of us wouldn't believe in other gods. He'd be condemning us to Hell from the beginning- something He wouldn't do if he truly did love all.

SilverWind · 05-03-2005, 05:47 PM

I just wish that more people would understand the genderless-ness of the Christian god. ...Or motion that English-like languages use a gender-neutral pronoun. *grumbles*

Something interesting about the existance of a god and evil that was discussed in my Philosophy class...

Only two out of three of these concepts can exist at the same time:

1. God is omnibenevolent.
2. God is omnipotent.
3. Evil exists.

If 1 and 2, not 3.
If 1 and 3, not 2.
If 2 and 3, not 1.

Most people are prone to believing all three of these at once... however, there seems to be a problem.

Would someone care to comment on or disprove this?

***CaptHayfever*** · 05-03-2005, 08:00 PM

^^Precisely.

^Omnipotence is just ability, not action.
It's the whole "free will vs. giant meat puppets (aka predestination)" argument. Evil exists because of our wrong actions, not God's.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

The Missing Link · 05-03-2005, 08:16 PM

^ The same thing with omnibenevolence, although you could even skew that into another direction. Is it truly omnibenevolence to just let happy things happen to everyone, thus causing them to (a) never learn anything and then have the intelligence of an inbred chocobo and (b) never learn to appreciate the good things in life due to lack of contrast, or is it truly omnibenevolence to allow evil to exist yet rescind the two resultant outcomes in consequence?

Even as Eiji Aonuma says about the new Zelda game (Yes, Zelda relates to God. Somehow. Shut up.), "In order to show good-looking bright action, we needed to feature darker aspects, to highlight -- literally highlight -- the lighter portions."

"There are some who call me... Link?"

"Carpe Gaium Domesticum!" (Seize the Cucco!)
Zelda: The Grand Adventures | Triforce MUCK
ザ行方不明リンク
悪いユウモアの賢人

SilverWind · 05-03-2005, 09:56 PM

Ah, both Capt and TML's objections are answered by the philosopher. (If it's too long for you to read--for shame! It took forever to scan in-- just go to the responses... one of the numbered sections will answer your objection directly.)

Take note that that was the opinion of the philosopher and the reading we discussed, not my actual opinion, per se. XD Though it's facinating, as I've pondered over how to break the conundrum for a while.

The philosopher is Mackie, and you are probably familiar with this other part of his article, the "Can God make a rock so big that He cannot lift it" paradox.

This is probably boardering some copyright mumbo jumbo, but I'll scan it in for the purposes of this discussion.

[ May 03, 2005, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: SilverWind ]

***CaptHayfever*** · 05-04-2005, 12:23 PM

Hmm. Could Mackie be just a little more condescending maybe? I don't think I've been unnecessarily insulted enough yet (maybe I've been jaded by some of our local jackholes); he should've piled it on a bit thicker.

The only one that "answers" my objection in any way, shape, or form is number 4, which really doen't answer it at all. When addressing the concept that God chooses not to control will to make only right decisions, all of his responses are either based on the previous 3 sections (all of which were about objections that I agree are fallacious) or he merely says that he doesn't understand why God would choose not to control everything so tightly, which does diddly-squat to counter the concept in question.

By the by, God could separate...um...Godself, I guess the word should be, into two beings, both parts of the same divinity, and suspend the strength of one God-part so that it is unable to lift a rock, while the other God-part remains all-powerful. For a real-life application of this example, see Jesus.

And if I could step just a tad off-topic & connect over to something Kargath quoted (Modest Mouse), there are other nonbelievers who don't understand why God does manipulate things. So we have one guy (in this case, Brock) asking why, and another (Mackie) asking why not, supposedly both to argue against the same idea. We have just entered The Twilight Zone.

And remember, "Imagine if you will..."

DELICIOUS POISON · 05-04-2005, 04:33 PM

I have never found the existance of a god or any other all-powerful force to be legitimately exemplified by this life. Further, I do not see this life being able to necessitate such a deity or energy. I have no reason to believe aside from personal whim, and I choose to remain neutral.

Erdawn Il Deus · 05-04-2005, 08:06 PM

^Your loss.

Quote:

Even as Eiji Aonuma says about the new Zelda game (Yes, Zelda relates to God. Somehow. Shut up.), "In order to show good-looking bright action, we needed to feature darker aspects, to highlight -- literally highlight -- the lighter portions."

I think Aldous Huxeley's Brave New World gave a better example, but yeah.

AJ Middleton · 05-04-2005, 08:52 PM

Hmm...how is that a loss?

imported_ · 05-04-2005, 08:56 PM

Well Bolt, I believe you are keenly aware that those who believe in a deity generally advocate that belief and feel that those who do not are missing something. Thus the loss. Clearly you disagree. No need for silliness.

05-02-2005, 03:28 PM	#1
Inferno Dragon Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Planet Draco Gender: Posts: 5,945 Thanks: 52 Thanked 32 Times in 25 Posts Points: 33,713.29 Bank: 20,217.77 Total Points: 53,931.07 Donate	so what do you think, is God male? female? too powerful to intervene in our daily lives without drasticly changing the world? the same being in all religions? this is where you can post your thoghts about the allmighty Creator of the universe. I will not judge you for your beliefs but anyway here's my belief. I think that God the allmighty is the same as the supreme diety for all the ancient and modern religions, and that God is a woman. and that She's probably tending to a far off corner of the universe right now leaving us to fend for ourselves here on this back-water podunk world EARTH. [ May 02, 2005, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Inferno Dragon, king of the dragons ]

05-02-2005, 06:48 PM	#2
*CaptHayfever* Smash Supermod Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: (n) - the place where I am Gender: Posts: 19,401 Thanks: 170 Thanked 779 Times in 497 Posts Points: 108,412.95 Bank: 1,040.34 Total Points: 109,453.29 Donate	I'd probably be least obstructive by just answering the questions as I see it. God is above gender. Male & female are created for reproductive purposes; the eternal have no need to reproduce (note I didn't say immortal, I said eternal. there's a difference). As an almighty being, God can intervene in any way, however small & subtle or big & blatant, but chooses not to micromanage everything. Furthermore, being omnipotent, God isn't really leaving us alone, even if God's not actually doing anything at the moment. The god of all 3 major semitic religions is the same supreme being. However, as for the rest of that question, keep in mind that not all the ancient religions had a supreme being. Zeus/Jupiter was often as fallible as a human, and Odin actually was just a human who ate magic food to stay alive. And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

05-02-2005, 07:15 PM	#3
Erdawn Il Deus Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Threading the jeweled thrones of earth under my sandalled feet Gender: Posts: 2,985 Thanks: 4 Thanked 45 Times in 39 Posts Points: 22,713.27 Bank: 757.83 Total Points: 23,471.10 Donate	^Thank you, Cap'n. I agree. I see God as more of a distant parent than anything -- watching us grow, and wanting us to grow and discover what God has granted us in creation with our own eyes, and abilities. Science is not the enemy of religion, but a means to an end and something God gifted us with (our minds, clod! not science itself!). Yawr.

05-02-2005, 07:25 PM	#4
L007 is Undecided Axe Shreddin' Mod Join Date: May 2001 Location: Farmerland. Gender: Posts: 7,383 Thanks: 95 Thanked 310 Times in 180 Posts Points: 3,659.58 Bank: 18,698.70 Total Points: 22,358.28 Donate	Indeed, God is above gender. However, when Jesus was born, God was always refered to as The Father. This is probably due to that he acted as a father to Jesus, caring for him. I never really cared about the issue, but when it goes as far as some people wanting a change in the Bible for God to be a woman, that is just pathetic. Anyone who goes as far as that should really consider if they actually know anything about their religion.

05-02-2005, 08:03 PM	#5
AJ Middleton Banned Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 0 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Points: 2,169.00 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 2,669.00 Donate	God is referred to as a "He" because male Christian/Jews/Muslims were the first to write about Him. Pagans were more facinated by women, so many of them hailed a Goddess. IMO, it doesn't matter at all.

05-02-2005, 09:00 PM	#6
The Missing Link Professional Lurker Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: New Hyrule, Washington, US Gender: Posts: 15,618 Thanks: 81 Thanked 201 Times in 118 Posts Points: 8,939.55 Bank: 62,309.03 Total Points: 71,248.58 Donate	Beautifully written, L007. [img]smile.gif[/img] "There are some who call me... Link?" "Carpe Gaium Domesticum!" (Seize the Cucco!) Zelda: The Grand Adventures \| Triforce MUCK ザ行方不明リンク悪いユウモアの賢人

05-02-2005, 09:12 PM	#7
Inferno Dragon Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Planet Draco Gender: Posts: 5,945 Thanks: 52 Thanked 32 Times in 25 Posts Points: 33,713.29 Bank: 20,217.77 Total Points: 53,931.07 Donate	well God could appear to us as anything he/she wanted us to see God as. God could appear as a Woman, a Man, an animal, or some strange being we coulden't even imagine existed. honestly I think God, while in heaven, is just this orb of eternal light that shines with love across the universe but in a physical form God could be anything that God wanted to be. oh and I agree that science should not be viewed as a tool against God but rather a tool to show God how much we have develloped since our creation. but I do have a problem wth the fact that some Christians believe that God controlls everything we do on this world. but if this were true then it would defeat the purpose of free will and honistly I can't deal with the belief that we ar not in controll of our lives.

05-02-2005, 11:01 PM	#8
*CaptHayfever* Smash Supermod Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: (n) - the place where I am Gender: Posts: 19,401 Thanks: 170 Thanked 779 Times in 497 Posts Points: 108,412.95 Bank: 1,040.34 Total Points: 109,453.29 Donate	^Right, that's what I was saying. Adding to that, even, IF God did control everything we said & did, then salation would just be a random dice roll, which doesn't make sense in any belief system. And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

05-03-2005, 12:37 PM	#10
*CaptHayfever* Smash Supermod Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: (n) - the place where I am Gender: Posts: 19,401 Thanks: 170 Thanked 779 Times in 497 Posts Points: 108,412.95 Bank: 1,040.34 Total Points: 109,453.29 Donate	Yes, that is what the word is supposed to be. [img]smile.gif[/img] You know what I meant with that analogy. And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

05-03-2005, 03:03 PM	#11
Shadowking Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,935 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Points: 1,661.00 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 2,161.00 Donate	All I know is, God doesn't control everything. If He did, then some of us wouldn't believe in other gods. He'd be condemning us to Hell from the beginning- something He wouldn't do if he truly did love all.

05-03-2005, 05:47 PM	#12
SilverWind Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Looking up at the stars... Posts: 8,225 Thanks: 2 Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts Points: 12,967.24 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 13,467.24 Donate	I just wish that more people would understand the genderless-ness of the Christian god. ...Or motion that English-like languages use a gender-neutral pronoun. grumbles Something interesting about the existance of a god and evil that was discussed in my Philosophy class... Only two out of three of these concepts can exist at the same time: 1. God is omnibenevolent. 2. God is omnipotent. 3. Evil exists. If 1 and 2, not 3. If 1 and 3, not 2. If 2 and 3, not 1. Most people are prone to believing all three of these at once... however, there seems to be a problem. Would someone care to comment on or disprove this?

05-03-2005, 08:00 PM	#13
*CaptHayfever* Smash Supermod Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: (n) - the place where I am Gender: Posts: 19,401 Thanks: 170 Thanked 779 Times in 497 Posts Points: 108,412.95 Bank: 1,040.34 Total Points: 109,453.29 Donate	^^Precisely. ^Omnipotence is just ability, not action. It's the whole "free will vs. giant meat puppets (aka predestination)" argument. Evil exists because of our wrong actions, not God's. And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

05-03-2005, 08:16 PM	#14
The Missing Link Professional Lurker Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: New Hyrule, Washington, US Gender: Posts: 15,618 Thanks: 81 Thanked 201 Times in 118 Posts Points: 8,939.55 Bank: 62,309.03 Total Points: 71,248.58 Donate	^ The same thing with omnibenevolence, although you could even skew that into another direction. Is it truly omnibenevolence to just let happy things happen to everyone, thus causing them to (a) never learn anything and then have the intelligence of an inbred chocobo and (b) never learn to appreciate the good things in life due to lack of contrast, or is it truly omnibenevolence to allow evil to exist yet rescind the two resultant outcomes in consequence? Even as Eiji Aonuma says about the new Zelda game (Yes, Zelda relates to God. Somehow. Shut up.), "In order to show good-looking bright action, we needed to feature darker aspects, to highlight -- literally highlight -- the lighter portions." "There are some who call me... Link?" "Carpe Gaium Domesticum!" (Seize the Cucco!) Zelda: The Grand Adventures \| Triforce MUCK ザ行方不明リンク悪いユウモアの賢人

05-03-2005, 09:56 PM	#15
SilverWind Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Looking up at the stars... Posts: 8,225 Thanks: 2 Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts Points: 12,967.24 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 13,467.24 Donate	Ah, both Capt and TML's objections are answered by the philosopher. (If it's too long for you to read--for shame! It took forever to scan in-- just go to the responses... one of the numbered sections will answer your objection directly.) Take note that that was the opinion of the philosopher and the reading we discussed, not my actual opinion, per se. XD Though it's facinating, as I've pondered over how to break the conundrum for a while. The philosopher is Mackie, and you are probably familiar with this other part of his article, the "Can God make a rock so big that He cannot lift it" paradox. This is probably boardering some copyright mumbo jumbo, but I'll scan it in for the purposes of this discussion. [ May 03, 2005, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: SilverWind ]

05-04-2005, 12:23 PM	#16
*CaptHayfever* Smash Supermod Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: (n) - the place where I am Gender: Posts: 19,401 Thanks: 170 Thanked 779 Times in 497 Posts Points: 108,412.95 Bank: 1,040.34 Total Points: 109,453.29 Donate	Hmm. Could Mackie be just a little more condescending maybe? I don't think I've been unnecessarily insulted enough yet (maybe I've been jaded by some of our local jackholes); he should've piled it on a bit thicker. The only one that "answers" my objection in any way, shape, or form is number 4, which really doen't answer it at all. When addressing the concept that God chooses not to control will to make only right decisions, all of his responses are either based on the previous 3 sections (all of which were about objections that I agree are fallacious) or he merely says that he doesn't understand why God would choose not to control everything so tightly, which does diddly-squat to counter the concept in question. By the by, God could separate...um...Godself, I guess the word should be, into two beings, both parts of the same divinity, and suspend the strength of one God-part so that it is unable to lift a rock, while the other God-part remains all-powerful. For a real-life application of this example, see Jesus. And if I could step just a tad off-topic & connect over to something Kargath quoted (Modest Mouse), there are other nonbelievers who don't understand why God does manipulate things. So we have one guy (in this case, Brock) asking why, and another (Mackie) asking why not, supposedly both to argue against the same idea. We have just entered The Twilight Zone. And remember, "Imagine if you will..."

05-04-2005, 04:33 PM	#17
DELICIOUS POISON Retro Nintendo Supermod Art & Literature Mod Metroid Mod Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I rub my tilde all over your asterisk Gender: Posts: 16,021 Thanks: 484 Thanked 1,223 Times in 657 Posts Points: 2,843.53 Bank: 2,062,438.70 Total Points: 2,065,282.23 Donate	I have never found the existance of a god or any other all-powerful force to be legitimately exemplified by this life. Further, I do not see this life being able to necessitate such a deity or energy. I have no reason to believe aside from personal whim, and I choose to remain neutral.

05-04-2005, 08:52 PM	#19
AJ Middleton Banned Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 0 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Points: 2,169.00 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 2,669.00 Donate	Hmm...how is that a loss?

05-04-2005, 08:56 PM	#20
imported_ Banned Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 0 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Points: 4,347.00 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 4,847.00 Donate	Well Bolt, I believe you are keenly aware that those who believe in a deity generally advocate that belief and feel that those who do not are missing something. Thus the loss. Clearly you disagree. No need for silliness.