On the omnipotence and supremity of God

[Kargath]

What happens when a halberd that can cut through anything strikes a shield that can block any attack?

[CaptHayfever]

Actually, you can conceptualize infinity plus 1 or infinity added to another infinity. It basically goes down to a basic formula, stating "God's power = x," but it can't be supreme because x inherantly can be outdone by "exceeding God's power = x+1."

Still wrong. God's power does not equal x. Infinity is not a number; x is a number. Whatever x is, God's power > x.

Granted, lots of people who defend god like to discount insanely valid things, like evolution and the fossil record, so I'm not really expecting them to concede that point.

I accept evolution and the fossil record, but still discount your mathematical ignorance.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

[Koga]

Cartman, Butters and Token proved that you can have Faith +1.

[Lurch1982]

That's the logical problem with presenting something as all powerful, all knowing, and perfectly good: it creates a complete paradox that brings into question the entire concept.

It essentially doesn't matter because you're employing a shifting definition of the word "infinity." To further illustrate without the logical variables (since you obviously can't grasp that), if god is all powerful and can create anything (due to the limitless power), he should be able to create an entity more powerful than himself. However, doing so voids the entire concept of limitless powers because it essentially puts a limit and adds more to it in the creation of a new being. However, if god cannot create such a being, it also brings into question the limits of gods power, because it then falls to god's power is limitless until a certain point, where he ultimately cannot create or go past.

And I'm glad you accept evolution and the fossil record, but you're still the biggest douchebag here.

[Wyborn]

You people are insane.

As to the square circle thing - tha'ts incredibly stupid. But a square and a circle do not have four and one side, respectively, they both have two sides, as both of them are two-dimensional and perfectly flat. A square has four vertices, while a circle has none whatsoever. Since nothing is actually two-dimensional, the question of whether an object can simultaneously be a square and a circle isn't a question of reality, it's a question of perception. It's impossible that such a thing could exist in three dimensions - but if you want to just talk without having to back it up, it's entirely possible that God could create somethign that, viewed from one perspective, would be a perfect circle, an viewed from another would be a perfect square. This thing would probably have to exist in dimensions that our perceptions wouldn't be able to understand, though, so even if He did make it you wouldn't be able to comprehend it.

But it's a stupid suggestion anyway.

The problem is that this whole conversation is just flying way over the head of what God is actually supposed to be about; He's not some giant guy sitting on a cloud looking down on us and listening to arguments about paradoxes that don't mean anything beyond what we can manage to conjure up in our imaginations. If you wanna argue whether or not God's supposed to be omnipotent, fine, do that, but that's simply not what God is about. If you believe in God then you need to realize that the "worship" of God isnt just about the acknowledgement of His dominion over all of creation, it's about recognizing that despite everything bad in the world, God still looks at us - collectively and as individuals - as His own children, who He allows to grow and act and suffer and be joyous as is befitting for the father of an entire world. We make our own mistakes and we learn from them and when we die we're reunited with him and given a greater understanding of what it all means, an enlightenment concerning the tapestry of creation that provides us comfort above everything else.

Yeah, come to think of it, this is probably the best thing I can think of to compare God to: when I was an infant (and for a little while when I was a bit older) I would go to sleep on my father's chest, head laying in the dip in his sternum. That's what God is, to me, and the ultimate example of His plan and care for us will be apparent when we can rest with him and bask in the scope of everything.

What was I talkign about?

The question of God's omnipotence is absolutely ****ing ridiculous. The very idea of omnipotence means that the full breadth and depth of it cannot be comprehended by us, and trying to conceptualize it is trivializing it into somethign that doesn't make sense.

And if you believe in God and are arguing about this honestly, you need to realize that this kind of question doesn't matter.

I'm wandering off now.

[CaptHayfever]

^^^Look at your hand, Token. What color is it? You can play the bass.

^^What I cannot grasp is your inability to comprehend a fundamental fact of math. You cannot have x = infinity. A variable has to equal a value, and infinity is not a value; it is a concept. You can say x is arbitrarily large, but it still is an arbitrarily large value, and the infinity concept means there's still something bigger than it. You can call me all the idiotic names you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the mathematical part of your argument does not hold water.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

[Lurch1982]

Originally Posted by CaptHayfever

^^What I cannot grasp is your inability to compreBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHIMADOUCHEBAGWHODOESNTSAYANYT HINGOFVALUE

And remember, "I'm-a douchebag, number one!"

Maybe if you'd stop attempting to shift definitions of "infinate" and "variables" from logical to mathmatical terms, you'd stop looking insanely stupid and I would stop insulting you.

And remember, "You're a douchebag, number one!"

[CaptHayfever]

You really miss being a one-man Minitruth, don't you?

By the by, math is logic, genius.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

[Lurch1982]

Ooooh, too bad the terminology is different. Using your douchebaggery logic, speaking Latin is the same as speaking French.

"And remember, you're a douchebag, Number-one!"

[CaptHayfever]

...Okay, now you just sound like Sig hacked your account, and I'm not dealing with that kind of jackholery. Good day, sir.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

[Lurch1982]

Go back to making (not funny and generally bad) non-sequitor comments, you're easier to ignore that way.

And remember, "You're-a douchebag, Number 1!"

[Kargath]

Both flame. Therefore you BOTH lose.

G'day to you both.

[Kargath]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem

An important example to consider. You *can* prove things don't exist by contradiction, even stuff involving infinity.

Logic is considered a branch of mathematics, Lurch. You're probably thinking math=algebra+calculus.

[Lurch1982]

Logic uses its own language and definitions, and I'm not using math per say but more of logical reasoning and logical variables. Captain Oblivious sees variables and says "*Random non sequitor comment* OMG MATH JARGON!11 YUO AER RONG!1" What he fails to grasp is the base concept of a variable (ie: it representing something else), especially when used in a logical problem. Hence the whole "using your douchebaggery logic, speaking Latin is the same as speaking French" (meaning: Latin and French are related and share similar roots and the like, but they are different in many ways, similar to logical terminology and concepts compared to mathmatical ones). Logic is related to math, yes, but it differs from math in a ton of ways. Also, it doesn't help that captdipstickfever shifts his definitions about three times in this thread.

[REfan46260]

Clearly, there's at least one thing God, if he/she/it/they exists, cannot do. You can make beings like the animals or like us, and you could make them automatons-born believing whatever religion will save them and without a choice to make of free will. However, worship, praise, or love from a robot you program to speak as you will is not real love or appreciation. Now by most believers' accounts, there is no way to hide how you really think and feel from God (omniscience). So a person who doesn't really buy it but is just too terrified of whichever version of hell is the local favorite to not go to church or bow five times a day toward Mecca or whatever might as well not even bother since God will know they don't believe in him. But then if he really rewards true faith with eternal salvation and punishes lack thereof with eternal damnation, then he either planned to make beings to torment (and is far from loving, but rather quite evil) or he wants all of them saved. But if their salvation is really his wish, why not make them see which religion is the true one by doing away with the free will thing. Clearly, IF God cares about people believing in him (something a truly open-minded person would have to concede is unknowable. Maybe there does exist a being but we are like fireflys to it-cute and a joy to observe, dying in what is almost a blink to a cosmic scaled mind. Maybe man's more comfortable believing this being cares about us in the same way we can understand, but it doesn't) then he acknowledges the illegitimacy of anything but a truly free will chosen love or act of faith. ITS A LIMIT. God cannot make a being in his own image without free will because it is part of that image, or rather, he cannot make such a being love him.

Now you can argue all you want that it was not impossible for God to have made us without free will, he just chose not to do so. But the simple fact remains, not even God can have true faith or love from us by force, or even belief that he exists at all. If God forced us to accept his reality, we wouldn't be believers at all, but then we wouldn't be free either. This 'fact of the nature of reality' if you will, is just that. Kind of like hubble's constant or prime numbers, and no matter how you believe in God, he works with a limit. But now I think I've gotta ask, why the hell is that so catastrophic to all you people of faith? Why must God not be limited for you to feel content? The very act of creation is by definition a limiting, dividing off in some fashion from all of the possible realities one definite reality. Does that shake your confidence in God? I think a lesson to be learned from man's preoccupation with his pathetically limited and human flawed perceptions of the divine (we call them religions when they gain some unspecific number of followers, and sometimes their'll be a book or some such) is that ultimately they consist of OUR interpretations and are subject to all our own flaws and limitations. When you see stories of God behaving like pouting child, or smiting in anger, or flooding the world and then apoligizing for it like... well, like a human, doesn't it occur that maybe some of what's written down is bullsh*t. Don't get me wrong, maybe a divine message is attempted, but unfortunately, the clergies of most of man's religions has always been riddled with those who use the religion to control the people. It's not very hard to add in or just make up whatever you feel like putting in print when no one can read but the clergy. To me, it just seems obvious that even not arguing the existance of a God or that it gives a sh*t what we think of it at all, we clearly aren't capable of getting the message when it's in our nature to fight and even kill each other over what color of f*cking ink it should be printed in. Agnosticism is NOT a fear reaction, it is about as brave a stance as a self-aware being can take, acknowledging the simple truth that man is not READY for religion. Face it. Look at our history. Flip on the news.

If there is a God, I pity him. It must be a heart-breaking thing to watch us.

[gobbledygook]

With omnipotence, logic is meaningless. But logic cannot allow omnipotence, especially if omniscience is included, since knowing what one will think in the future means a lack of free will. If one is all-powerful, they would have the power to contradict themselves. An omnipotent being can and cannot create something they cannot lift at the same time, but this is irrelevant since omnipotence does not exist.

[Lord X]

If only there were some system, instigated by the government or possibly private funding perhaps that could educate people about, oh say, mathematics. How glorious that would be! People would be able to understand each other's reasoning & ideas via the precision and succinctness of math and we could all work together to further humanity's overall body of knowledge... We could call this system... sch-ool, or "math classes" more specifically. But alas...

[GamertoNintendo]

What the...GOD is another concept of infinity for them religious ones particularly for those European religions. It can't be put completely in the imagination of a mortal. However...some people like to see it otherwise. And I don't mean in a very nice way. Yes...I think Crusades...and some USA republicans. Now if only I could recall the exact articles that mentioned the cruel acts that I am looking for. But I know they exist.

[Sir Dark, The Hunter]

Originally Posted by Koga

Cartman, Butters and Token proved that you can have Faith +1.

Yes, in D&D you can, but only if you roll for your sanity & CAT scan check

Infinity is infinity, there is no greater. Gods' power is allways greater than infinity for He created infinity when He created the universe.

[Nojoy]

pff. who cares?