Holy Trinity - VGF

Koga · 07-26-2006, 03:59 PM

In this topic: http://www.vgf.com/forums/secrets-co...hanes-son.html

I made a joke that God and Jesus are the same, and that God therefore created himself. As far as I understand, God = Jesus = Holy Spirit: they are different forms of the same being. Nomyt got confused and I wondered if anyone could explain how it works exactly.

**Dr. Horrible** · 07-26-2006, 05:22 PM

I'm not entirely sure how it all works. C.S. Lewis gives the best explaination I've heard in Mere Christianity. About a fourth of this book is devoted to the concept of the Trinity, so I'll try to get to the heart of it as best as I can.

"God is a Being which contains three Persons while remaining one Being, just as a cube contains six squares while remaining one body. But as soon as I begin trying to explain how these Persons are connected, I have to use words which make it sound as if one of them was there before the others. The First Person is called the Father and the Second the Son. We say that the First begets or produces the second; we call it begetting, not making, because what He produces is of the same kind as Himself. In that way, the word Father is the only word to use. But unfortunately, it suggests that He is there first-just as a human father exists before his son. But that is not so. There is no before and after about it. And that is why I think it important to make clear how one thing can be the source, or cause, or origin, of another without being there before it. The Son exists because the Father exists: but there never was a time before the Father produced the Son.
...we must think of the Son always, so to speak, streaming forth from the Father, like light from a lamp, or heat from a fire, or thoughts from a mind. He is the self-expression of the Father--what the Father has to say. And there never was a time when He was not saying it."

I don't know how much more I can quote without violating copyright or something, but I really like what he has to say about the subject. If there are more specific questions, I'll answer them as best as I (rather, as Lewis) can. As I said, there's about 1/4 of the book devoted to the Trinity.

***CaptHayfever*** · 07-26-2006, 07:02 PM

As far as "they" have told me, you've got it right on, Koga.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

***ZeldaGirl*** · 07-26-2006, 10:42 PM

If I am not mistaken, some sects of Christianity actually differ in the belief of the Holy Trinity. I am not sure, so don't quote me, but some Christian Scientist friends of mine say that Jesus is not God, but his human son, whereas Catholics believe Jesus is the Son of God, but divine and equal in the trinity. It's hard to tell which is true, because belief in the trinity varies in religion. I think. Correct me if I am wrong, anyone.

**Dr. Horrible** · 07-27-2006, 02:45 AM

Jehova's Witnesses, for one, don't believe in Jesus's divinity. I know little about Christian Scientists, other than they don't believe in medical treatment. Catholicism and most protestant denominations teach the Holy Trinity (I'm not sure about Eastern Orthodox, but I would guess they do too).

I think that the general feeling in a lot of protestant churches is that the belief in a Trinity is one of those few things that is neccessary for a denomination of Christianity to be legitimately Christian (whereas two denominations might disagree on some "minor" issues but still consider each other "real Christians" in spite of the minor disagreements).

My youth pastor (a baptist) joked one time that, "Yeah, we believe they (Methodists) are Christians, but they're not getting into the 'good heaven.'"

Koga · 07-27-2006, 09:21 AM

As with so many things, Christians do not even agree amongst themselves :P

But the most prominent idea is God = Jesus = Holy Spirit, right?

**Dr. Horrible** · 07-27-2006, 01:35 PM

Well, they're equal in that they're all God, yes.

Marshman18 · 07-27-2006, 10:37 PM

The different denominations of Christianity do differ in beliefs, some in the way they worship, others on issues like salvation and the Trinity. I am Southern Baptist, but I can worship with fellow believer regardless of denomination.

Like Deku Trii said, C.S. Lewis probably puts it best. I really love all his writings.

Nojoy · 07-27-2006, 11:38 PM

cant you just look this up on your own?

Koga · 07-28-2006, 01:25 AM

I could've, but I also wanted to start a discussion on this topic.

The Doctor · 07-28-2006, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nojoy

cant you just look this up on your own?

Also, everyone else can explain it better than what he could.

07-26-2006, 03:59 PM	#1
Koga Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: The Netherlands Gender: Posts: 17,093 Thanks: 104 Thanked 176 Times in 118 Posts Points: 104,306.41 Bank: 17,752.41 Total Points: 122,058.82 Donate	Holy Trinity In this topic: http://www.vgf.com/forums/secrets-co...hanes-son.html I made a joke that God and Jesus are the same, and that God therefore created himself. As far as I understand, God = Jesus = Holy Spirit: they are different forms of the same being. Nomyt got confused and I wondered if anyone could explain how it works exactly.

07-27-2006, 02:45 AM	#5
Dr. Horrible PP&R Mod Current Events Mod Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: More important than where is when.... Gender: Posts: 6,336 Thanks: 104 Thanked 293 Times in 177 Posts Points: 2,292.51 Bank: 1,865,934.44 Total Points: 1,868,226.95 Donate	Jehova's Witnesses, for one, don't believe in Jesus's divinity. I know little about Christian Scientists, other than they don't believe in medical treatment. Catholicism and most protestant denominations teach the Holy Trinity (I'm not sure about Eastern Orthodox, but I would guess they do too). I think that the general feeling in a lot of protestant churches is that the belief in a Trinity is one of those few things that is neccessary for a denomination of Christianity to be legitimately Christian (whereas two denominations might disagree on some "minor" issues but still consider each other "real Christians" in spite of the minor disagreements). My youth pastor (a baptist) joked one time that, "Yeah, we believe they (Methodists) are Christians, but they're not getting into the 'good heaven.'" Last edited by Deku Trii; 07-27-2006 at 02:51 AM.

07-26-2006, 05:22 PM	#2
Dr. Horrible PP&R Mod Current Events Mod Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: More important than where is when.... Gender: Posts: 6,336 Thanks: 104 Thanked 293 Times in 177 Posts Points: 2,292.51 Bank: 1,865,934.44 Total Points: 1,868,226.95 Donate	I'm not entirely sure how it all works. C.S. Lewis gives the best explaination I've heard in Mere Christianity. About a fourth of this book is devoted to the concept of the Trinity, so I'll try to get to the heart of it as best as I can. "God is a Being which contains three Persons while remaining one Being, just as a cube contains six squares while remaining one body. But as soon as I begin trying to explain how these Persons are connected, I have to use words which make it sound as if one of them was there before the others. The First Person is called the Father and the Second the Son. We say that the First begets or produces the second; we call it begetting, not making, because what He produces is of the same kind as Himself. In that way, the word Father is the only word to use. But unfortunately, it suggests that He is there first-just as a human father exists before his son. But that is not so. There is no before and after about it. And that is why I think it important to make clear how one thing can be the source, or cause, or origin, of another without being there before it. The Son exists because the Father exists: but there never was a time before the Father produced the Son. ...we must think of the Son always, so to speak, streaming forth from the Father, like light from a lamp, or heat from a fire, or thoughts from a mind. He is the self-expression of the Father--what the Father has to say. And there never was a time when He was not saying it." I don't know how much more I can quote without violating copyright or something, but I really like what he has to say about the subject. If there are more specific questions, I'll answer them as best as I (rather, as Lewis) can. As I said, there's about 1/4 of the book devoted to the Trinity.

07-26-2006, 07:02 PM	#3
*CaptHayfever* Smash Supermod Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: (n) - the place where I am Gender: Posts: 19,273 Thanks: 160 Thanked 733 Times in 474 Posts Points: 105,385.73 Bank: 923.79 Total Points: 106,309.52 Donate	As far as "they" have told me, you've got it right on, Koga. And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

07-26-2006, 10:42 PM	#4
*ZeldaGirl* Venting SuperMod Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Why do YOU want to know...? Gender: Posts: 11,712 Thanks: 495 Thanked 726 Times in 490 Posts Points: 22,621.54 Bank: 312,130.01 Total Points: 334,751.55 Donate	If I am not mistaken, some sects of Christianity actually differ in the belief of the Holy Trinity. I am not sure, so don't quote me, but some Christian Scientist friends of mine say that Jesus is not God, but his human son, whereas Catholics believe Jesus is the Son of God, but divine and equal in the trinity. It's hard to tell which is true, because belief in the trinity varies in religion. I think. Correct me if I am wrong, anyone.

07-27-2006, 09:21 AM	#6
Koga Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: The Netherlands Gender: Posts: 17,093 Thanks: 104 Thanked 176 Times in 118 Posts Points: 104,306.41 Bank: 17,752.41 Total Points: 122,058.82 Donate	As with so many things, Christians do not even agree amongst themselves :P But the most prominent idea is God = Jesus = Holy Spirit, right?

07-27-2006, 01:35 PM	#7
Dr. Horrible PP&R Mod Current Events Mod Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: More important than where is when.... Gender: Posts: 6,336 Thanks: 104 Thanked 293 Times in 177 Posts Points: 2,292.51 Bank: 1,865,934.44 Total Points: 1,868,226.95 Donate	Well, they're equal in that they're all God, yes.

07-27-2006, 10:37 PM	#8
Marshman18 Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: In front of my computer Gender: Posts: 2,174 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Points: 759.98 Bank: 1,511.30 Total Points: 2,271.28 Donate	The different denominations of Christianity do differ in beliefs, some in the way they worship, others on issues like salvation and the Trinity. I am Southern Baptist, but I can worship with fellow believer regardless of denomination. Like Deku Trii said, C.S. Lewis probably puts it best. I really love all his writings.

07-27-2006, 11:38 PM	#9
Nojoy Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wouldn't you like to know Gender: Posts: 90 Thanks: 2 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post Points: 1,967.66 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 2,467.66 Donate	cant you just look this up on your own?

07-28-2006, 01:25 AM	#10
Koga Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: The Netherlands Gender: Posts: 17,093 Thanks: 104 Thanked 176 Times in 118 Posts Points: 104,306.41 Bank: 17,752.41 Total Points: 122,058.82 Donate	I could've, but I also wanted to start a discussion on this topic.