The Creation, Discussion

The 7-day story isn't literal, despite how much some people want it to be. And the other creation story doesn't give any kind of specific time frame, so who's to say He didn't make a bunch of toy dinosaurs to play with and then get rid of them before making humans?

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

[Princess Zelda of Hyrule]

Something tells me that, if there was such a thing as the Garden of Eden, it wasn't on the planet earth as we know it. It was in another dimension, one without time or death, until they were banished into a place like our universe where they would be forced to evolve for thousands of years without knowing why or how. Even now that we have complex brains, think about all the things we don't know. The story of Adam and Eve could be true, depending on how you think of it.

It's incredibly disheartening to find that the billions of combined hours of arduous, grueling, and dedicated work spent by scientists all throughout history has barely even touched upon the vast majority of the population.

It's sad, but scientists aren't the only ones in the world who work their butts off for nothing. Preachers work their butts off for nothing. Teachers work their butts off for nothing. Writers, artists, politicians, everybody.

[quote]That the lifelong work and research of many of the greatest minds in history, which culminated to provide civilization with the understanding of our universe needed in order to enjoy lavish technologies, ultimately leading the transformation of human life from what it was in the days of the cavemen to what it is now, could be so unjustly ridiculed and laughed at is appalling.

Science is the best and most successful way of learning how our universe works

It seems like only yesterday when science told us that the sky was a vault with clockwork behind it to make the stars move, and when we determined acids and bases by tasting them and burning our tongues out. Yes, science is noble. Yes, it should be regarded with more respect and enthusiasm than today's culture is willing to give it. But don't forget that it's only as powerful as humans are. I have a good deal of faith in it, but I'd think twice before putting everything I have into what certain people say about the universe. If you want to respect science, then be scientific: doubt. Nobody said people with degrees are always right. Feel free to question them. The people who show the least respect for science are the ones who don't think twice about it, and doubting science at least involves giving science some critical thought.

and it doesn't affect us.

I find it hard to believe that it doesn't affect us, when it's one of the most passionate and divisive debate topics. When it makes so many of us wonder. When it produces so many life-changing theories and religions.

[imported_AJ Middleton]

No, really, the creation of the universe doesn't affect us. How will learning how everything began help my life in any way? Hell, how will it help humanity?

Imagine, if you can, a color that doesn't exist. And I don't mean pink-blue; I mean a TRUE color that no one has ever seen before. You can't. Why? Because we can't even begin to comprehend it. On the same note, try to think of how someone born blind can picture things if they've never seen before. It seems like they can't. And I bet you and I cannot begin to comprehend how they visualize things.

THAT, in my opinion, is the fundamental problem behind creation theories. We assume that our math and our physics and our logic will work to solve something as great as the universe. I do not deny that the scientists may be correct in their calculations, but EVERYTHING they do is limited by the loop of human comprehension. I strongly believe that the creation (if there even was one) is something that we can't even think about because it's so above us. And I don't mean something like eternity, but something so different and so impossible for our minds to grasp that trying to is like thinking of a new color.

[Princess Zelda of Hyrule]

No, really, the creation of the universe doesn't affect us. How will learning how everything began help my life in any way? Hell, how will it help humanity?

You don't think that knowing whether we were designed by God or not would change anything?

I do not deny that the scientists may be correct in their calculations, but EVERYTHING they do is limited by the loop of human comprehension.

Then why should we trust anything scientists say? They're always limited by the loop of human comprehension, not just when dealing with creation. What we think of as facts are probably just half-true fragments of a bigger picture we'll never see. Faith is as important as logic when it comes to trying to understand things.

[imported_AJ Middleton]

No.

Why are we debating with something that we agree about? Modern science has proved useful when dealing with matters here on earth. However, the universe and its beginning are a whole different ballgame.

Umm, no. While logic requires some reason, faith is just blind following.

All knowledge is useful. And it's not like we just randomly decided to study the Big Bang. It just came up in the course of examining the universe. In the study of Physics and Astronomy, we discovered that the universe is expanding. Combining this with other evidence, we figured the Big Bang to be pretty likely.

With this knowledge, we might be able to determine other things. I don't know what, for obvious reasons, but all information is useful.

PZoH, your thoughts might affect you. They're coming from you. Your comprehension might affect you. It's coming from you. You can apply advanced thinking to anything. Just because you apply it to the beginning of creation means nothing. There are plenty of better things to dedicate your mind to. Things that you will be better off from. Picking which guess is a better guess is still just guesswork. And please don't start with that headache-inducing strategy where you quote 2 words, and argue for a paragraph against them.

[Princess Zelda of Hyrule]

No.

Whoa, that's news. Don't you think it would be a different world if there were no such thing as atheism, or religion, for that matter?

Umm, no. While logic requires some reason, faith is just blind following.

Logic is a faith. Logic is a series of conclusions. If you strip it down to the purest, simplest, and innermost conclusion, you'd get something based on a presumption of some sort. You can't prove that religion is accurate with religion. Nor can you can't prove that logic is accurate with logic.

And please don't start with that headache-inducing strategy where you quote 2 words, and argue for a paragraph against them.

Okay, then I'll keep it short:

There are plenty of better things to dedicate your mind to.

And?

[ May 30, 2004, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: Princess Zelda of Hyrule: God Bless ]

Life, and living it. Not life and questioning it. Get my point?

[Princess Zelda of Hyrule]

What are you? Anti-curiosity? Sure, I could just live for the sake of living, but where's the fun in that? It's my personality type. I'm a writer. I want everything to play some meaningful part in a plot. You think I should just enjoy life for what it is? That's exactly what I'm doing. I have a brain, and I use it, and I enjoy it, because I can. So quit trying to spoil it for me.

Besides, progress starts with questions. While I don't want to live in some spooky futuristic civilization where we create our own babies by machine, I don't want to live in the Dark Ages, either.

[ May 31, 2004, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Princess Zelda of Hyrule: God Bless ]

[imported_AJ Middleton]

Yes, but if there was no such thing, we would never know about it, now would we?

PZoH, stop playing with definitions. Religious faith is not the same as logic...give me a break. LOGIC requires observation and common sense. Faith is a matter of simply believing.

Because we're only human and the chances of us knowing how something so great came to be are very small.

So the universe is eternal because we don't know any better...ok.

No, modern science does not have an explanation for my theory yet. Big deal. And will it ever? Who knows. The origin of the universe is too big of a concept for insignificant and finite humans to understand.

Which explains why a highly superior being like yourself figured it out?
Basically, Bolt, it's looking like you just have no clue at all of how it all started, so you're taking a crap in the dark and saying it never did start.

I never said that. I said, "We can't understand it, so makes more sense."

It makes sense because we can't understand it?

Something tells me that, if there was such a thing as the Garden of Eden, it wasn't on the planet earth as we know it. It was in another dimension, one without time or death, until they were banished into a place like our universe where they would be forced to evolve for thousands of years without knowing why or how. Even now that we have complex brains, think about all the things we don't know. The story of Adam and Eve could be true, depending on how you think of it.

The bible talks about creation before it mentions Adam and Eve. With that in mind, I beleive it was pretty bluntly implied that they were on earth.

Umm, no. While logic requires some reason, faith is just blind following.

What the hell do you call your theory?
You have absolutely NOTHING to base it on.
It might piss you off, but you have faith, homie.

[imported_AJ Middleton]

DBZM! I beg of you! Don't take my posts out of context!

I didn't say that.

What did I figure out? Did I say that I figured anything out? I said what I said--don't jump to unfounded conclusions.

Yes. Think about it. Universe. Human. Allmighty. Insignificant bug. What are the chances that we will ever comprehend it?

My theory isn't faith because I don't follow it, so to say. I don't care how the universe came to be because it really doesn't matter.

Logic is a faith. Logic is a series of conclusions. If you strip it down to the purest, simplest, and innermost conclusion, you'd get something based on a presumption of some sort. You can't prove that religion is accurate with religion. Nor can you can't prove that logic is accurate with logic.

LOGIC:
The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.

A system of reasoning: Aristotle's logic.
A mode of reasoning: By that logic, we should sell the company tomorrow.
The formal, guiding principles of a discipline, school, or science.
Valid reasoning: Your paper lacks the logic to prove your thesis.
The relationship between elements and between an element and the whole in a set of objects, individuals, principles, or events: There's a certain logic to the motion of rush-hour traffic.
Computer Science.
The nonarithmetic operations performed by a computer, such as sorting, comparing, and matching, that involve yes-no decisions.
Computer circuitry.
Graphic representation of computer circuitry. Here's my source
You're babbling intrigues me. You see, defining logic has nothing to do with presumption. Logic uses something called "Observation". Let's get a good example going. You start with what you know, what you can observe. Let's start with a rock, a hypothetical rock. I see this rock. I know that this rock is hard. Why? because and can feel it. As I push it, I can feel the resistance. I might also observe next to it, a piece of wood. Perhaps a branch. I notice that the branch is weaker than the rock, because when I apply force in a certain manner, it breaks. I can then deduct certain things through the use of logic. I can deduct that, when building a shelter, I might use rocks over sticks because the rocks are harder, and therefore will take more abuse from out side elements. We can see this through observation. Logic is somethign we can verify through concepts. We can test it. I can bang my head against a brick wall and realize that I cannot break it with my head, because every time I test this theory it proves true. I need only test this once though, because doing more times would prove me idiotic. It's also somewhat PAINFUL.

However, let's look at FAITH.

FAITH:
Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
A set of principles or beliefs.

4. That which is believed on any subject, whether in science, politics, or religion; especially (Theol.), a system of religious belief of any kind; as, the Jewish or Mohammedan faith; and especially, the system of truth taught by Christ; as, the Christian faith; also, the creed or belief of a Christian society or church.

Which to believe of her, Must be a faith that reason without miracle Could never plant in me. --Shak.

Now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. --Gal. i. 23.

5. Fidelity to one's promises, or allegiance to duty, or to a person honored and beloved; loyalty.

Children in whom is no faith. --Deut. xxvii. 20.

Whose failing, while her faith to me remains, I should conceal. --Milton.

6. Word or honor pledged; promise given; fidelity; as, he violated his faith.

For you alone I broke me faith with injured Palamon. --Dryden.

7. Credibility or truth. [R.]

Note the word "Belief."

1: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality" [syn: religion, religious belief] 2: complete confidence in a person or plan etc; "he cherished the faith of a good woman"; "the doctor-patient relationship is based on trust" [syn: trust] 3: institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him" [syn: religion] 4: loyalty or allegiance to a cause or a person; "keep the faith"; "they broke faith with their investors"

It's is a belief, not a fact. Sure, I believe in certain things. I can believe that, in the next two minutes, that my father will not come down to yell at me to do my homework. 100% certainty? No way. Even though I have told him my homeowrk is done, he may have forgotten, and sometimes parental duties kick in and he feels the need to remind me. But considering his mood, the chances are small. So I BELIEVE, I have FAITH in the fact that I am free and clear. But I cannot say, in all honesty, that it is fact.

Then there's blind faith, i.e YOU. You have heard that there is a god, and there's a big book that goes through explaining all his exploits and everything he did and all those who followed him. You have never truly verified this as fact, that all of this happened. This is a book, which could be misrepresented fact, and it's really all you have. You have a supposition, a hypothesis with no real way to test it. You just say you have "faith", and that faith will make it true. That, to me, is a very, very ABSURD conclusion.

Besides, progress starts with questions. While I don't want to live in some spooky futuristic civilization where we create our own babies by machine, I don't want to live in the Dark Ages, either.

Progress start with questions, yes, but when you jump to insane conclusions, we kind of destroyed the progress. Like, Hitler there, blaming the Jews for all the problems of the depression in Germany. Look where that one got us. Or Religion. Look at how many lives, how many discoveries have been slowed by the detriment. BTW, Hitler kinda had more observations to use against the Jewish people than creationists do for their being a god.

What are you? Anti-curiosity? Sure, I could just live for the sake of living, but where's the fun in that? It's my personality type. I'm a writer. I want everything to play some meaningful part in a plot. You think I should just enjoy life for what it is? That's exactly what I'm doing. I have a brain, and I use it, and I enjoy it, because I can. So quit trying to spoil it for me.

Well, I don't suppose he's anti curiousity. What he might be, quote the might, is a person who doesn't see the point in looking for an end all be all answer to his existence. He might have noticed, unlike some, that there's a bunch of theories but not enough evidence to support the life after death stuff, so doesn't bother with it because it's not too important. I know that's how I see it. I won't speak for him, but it's a theory.

Which explains why a highly superior being like yourself figured it out?
Basically, Bolt, it's looking like you just have no clue at all of how it all started, so you're taking a crap in the dark and saying it never did start.

Does this even warrant a reply? Seriously, He said, as I recall, that there's insufficient data. I don't see you giving a good explanation. One thing, on this man's defense, is that Bolt said we won't be able to understand. he doesn't know that either. But he isn't taking a crap in the dark, as you say it.

Yes. Think about it. Universe. Human. Allmighty. Insignificant bug. What are the chances that we will ever comprehend it?

My theory isn't faith because I don't follow it, so to say. I don't care how the universe came to be because it really doesn't matter.

HEAR HEAR!

My take on creationism is that it's a backwards way of going about drawing a conclusion. When you have a tested theory that comes to a logical conclusion with data and all to back it up, you can talk to me. I'm not advocating Big Bang thoery or anything, but I'm relatively sure that some quack from the B.C's with no data and less understanding is going to convince me that he's right.

[Flamethrower Mario]

^Thank you. I've been trying to convince her of the difference between Faith and Logic for so long now, and that does a very good job.

I don't care if I seem like a spoil sport, my point is that you're making a big religious stink out of a goddamn guessing game. It's your type, yes, to give cause and purpose to that which you don't understand. I know that. But you make your entire life depend on your belief of creation.

Religion is fairy tale that became obsolete centuries ago. People need to get over "God" and start believing in what is true and can be proved by science, not some guy up in the sky. Humans can explain everything through their own reason.

[Lord Grimskull]

Originally posted by BlastaMasta:
Religion is fairy tale that became obsolete centuries ago. People need to get over "God" and start believing in what is true and can be proved by science, not some guy up in the sky. Humans can explain everything through their own reason.

The Creation cannot be explained in any way, shape, or form that is comprehensible to the human mind. No matter which way you slice it, something exists before everything else--religion, the Big Bang, whatever--something has to exist first. And what came before that? No one knows, and it's generally stated that it always existed since time out of mind...which makes no rational sense. Rationality can't explain everything.

For example, how the heck can you prove that the world didn't spring into being five minutes ago, memories in minds, fossils in the ground, civilizations developed, and all signs of age and development already there?

Heh. Arguing solipsism is fun.

Originally posted by BlastaMasta:
Religion is fairy tale that became obsolete centuries ago. People need to get over "God" and start believing in what is true and can be proved by science, not some guy up in the sky. Humans can explain everything through their own reason.

I would laugh my ass of if when you die you end up sitting on a cloud at Final Judgement, with the allmighty presence of God quoting this very sentence... and slapping an PWNT sticker on your forehead before laying the righteous smackdown. =]

Anyway, whether or not you believe in science, religion, or your own damn thumb, some things can't be explained. Somethings can't be understood. Guess what, buddy? The human brain maybe quite impressive, but what's to say there's nothing vastly superior to its capacity to understand? Like, I think Bolt mentioned, a color that's never been seen or discovered before. You couldn't imagine it because it's beyond your comprehension. God may just be that. A superior being some where in the universe that at some point made it's face know on earth and drove millions to believe in oure religion. People weren't very smart back then, ya dig? They thought thunder was caused by big boulders rolling around in heaven or a cosmic bowler knocking down a celestial STEEE-RIKE in his free time.

Humans can explain everything. Pssht. My ass.

The Bible may be true, partially true, or the first novel ever written and thought up by four guys who decided it would be cool to all write a story from four different perspectives, that was just taken too far. Remember what happened when War of the Worlds first aired on radio? The Bible was written by people who had no GRASP of technology other than mud huts(exagerating, but you get it). They thought everything from a candel-lit dinner to a shooting star was somehow divine, and based their religion on what the figured was true. Every religion had been based off that. Who's to say the Greeks weren't right?

...

Okay bad example, but you get the concept.

Originally posted by Erdawn: Just too damn good:
As far as I know, Adam & Eve did not walk with the dinosaurs. Could the Creation in the Bible have not happened? Discuss.

Wow. First person i have ever heard that suggested that Adam and Eve walked with dinosaurs.

But seriously, there is an outside force. Nothing explodes for no reason.. not even ity-bity piece of nothingness that weighed more than a million earths. Whether it was God, a god, many gods, aliens, or the fact that some great thinkers are really annoying jokers who got us thinking in a certain way... it doesn't actually matter. Unless its your job to talk about the Creation of the world, of existance. Than it holds no baring, but only to that of a simple chit-chat conversation.... So hows the weather?