I got a question

[Koga]

If everyone who was religious actually followed the teachings of their prophet/messiah instead of taking scripture out of context in order to bash minority groups and liberal ideas the world would be a much better place.

[DELICIOUS POISON]

Okay, I'm not an even remotely religious person, and I think the majority of religious ideals border on the realm of silliness. That being said, I find it funny that a belief in hell is a hinging point for most people.

Let me put it into simple English. God is omnipotent, yes? Existance is based on a whim of God to populate nothing with something. So, to believe that God would not know - indeed, even control - the outcome of his or her actions is to contest the power of God. Eternal power doesn't come with a set of rules - Either a deity has control or a deity does not. If the deity does not even perceive the outcome of his or her actions, like a chain of events, how can you consider this deity to be omnipotent? God would have to have created this punishment that the believers claim exists, even if it was done inadvertently. I cannot, for the life of me, begin to see any way around that.

[Princess Zelda of Hyrule]

Of course I am. Do I let that fear affect my life? No.

[Kil'jaeden]

If you take Islamic Hell seriously then why aren't you a Muslim?

[Princess Zelda of Hyrule]

I didn't say I took it seriously. I said I feared it.

[Sarai and Samiel]

Originally Posted by Enthusiastic Beard

Okay, I'm not an even remotely religious person, and I think the majority of religious ideals border on the realm of silliness. That being said, I find it funny that a belief in hell is a hinging point for most people.

I don't find it funny at all. It's actually pretty sensible.

Looking at it from a reasonable standpoint, the whole hell or whatever you want to call it issue is probably the part of a given mythos that most heavily impacts a person who believes in it on a day to day basis. This is because the vast majority of religions that have such a division of afterlife have Things You Should Not Do and Things You Should Do, and this 'hell' is given as a reason why those things are Things You Should Not Do and Things You Should Do (thank George Carlin for that one, too). Yes, there's the whole good/bad issue, but all of those religions enforce that goodness or badness with a toss into a hell or a ticket into a heaven.

This reads to me as one of the ****tiest points of organized mythos. Because it's basically saying that something being good is not enough reason to do it, and something being bad is not enough reason not to do it- there has to be reward and punishment. This is stupid. If you can't find it in yourself to do something without being punished for not doing it (or to not do something without being rewarded for it, or to do something without being rewarded for it or to not do something without being punished for doing it), then what you're doing is not making an informed decision based on your better conscience and morality (whether individually determined, religiously determined, or mixed). What you're doing is making the five-year-old's decision based on what will or won't get you in trouble with the big person who says what's okay or not and doesn't tell you why.

What you're doing is what you've been told to, and for no other reason than that you were told to do it.

What makes it worse is that these rules are almost always codified, laid out 'in stone', and that makes them seemingly inflexible regardless of the circumstances.

That, in my eyes, is complete hogwash, because it seems from my perspective to simply be a way to absolve oneself from responsibility for one's actions- you didn't decide to do it independently, you were told to do it. Of course, since you choose your morality, even that excuse shouldn't be accepted as valid- but it is accepted as valid anyways, and quite widely.

I have no problem with the concept of heaven and hell, I have every problem with the usual implementation and its meanings for people who follow the attached beliefs- particularly this whole thing about an independently intelligent higher force deciding for us and judging us as to where we go (should such beliefs be correct).

Personally, I honestly couldn't give a **** what happens to me after I die- I haven't seen or heard anything to say for sure what it is, there's nobody been around to tell us for certain what it is, and I have better things to worry about- like what's actually good or bad, regardless of where it sends me at some nebulous later point.

[Prince Toad]

^Excellent point. My only problem with it is, most people are going to want a reason to do good things and not do bad things, more than just "because they're good/bad and you should(n't) be doing them anyway." As I've said at some point, concepts like religion, especially heaven and hell, provide convenient starting points for morality-- there's a pretty clear reason for doing good things and not doing bad things.

The problem is, when the morality itself is corrupt, those very useful structures become revealed for the easily abused concepts they are. That's why I'd be more concerned about correcting the morality than doing away with rewards in the afterlife. (Of course, I don't doubt that the morality was correct to begin with and for some people remains so: love your brother, etc. But a lot of it is indeed corrupt, or just out of date, and that's where we have our problems.)

[Princess Zelda of Hyrule]

I have yet to be convinced anyone does good just because it's good, or avoids bad just because it's bad.

[Legion]

Originally Posted by Princess Zelda of Hyrule

I have yet to be convinced anyone does good just because it's good, or avoids bad just because it's bad.

That's a rather depressing view of humanity though, isn't it? I much prefer the pretence that people will behave with kindness without any need for an ulterior motive, rather than the more cynical view that all actions are undertaken with one's personal advancement in mind. Even if I am wrong, I'm much happier living under that assumption.

[ZeldaGirl]

I suppose it goes back to PZoH's altruism v. egoism debate. I, on the one hand, believe that people can truly be altruistic and good without any ulterior motives. PZoH believes the opposite (at least, that's the impression I got).

I for one will continue to believe people can be good for the sake of simply being good.

[Princess Zelda of Hyrule]

I fail to see how morality is any less beautiful when a person's happiness comes from another person's happiness.

[Kil'jaeden]

I think people generally do things with their selves in mind. How can anyone be completely selfless?

[Sarai and Samiel]

I didn't say that anyone *always* acts with the best interests of others only in mind. But now we're getting around to a debate like the whole 'evolution vs. religion' one- a debate that shouldn't be, because the two sides aren't neccessarily mutually exclusive.

No, I don't imagine for an instant that every action people take that they think is the right one is percieved so because it helps others, and I hardly believe that it's possible for someone to go their entire life without ever doing anything for the sake of it being benificial to themself.

At the same time, I, at least, frequently do things for no reason aside from that they help someone else. Because I like doing that sort of thing. I like doing that sort of thing because it's helpful.

You can call me an optimist for it if you like, though you'll be wrong (I'm actually fairly cynical usually), but I hardly think it's unbelievable for someone to do something with no thought of its benefit to themself (modifiable by person in question and situation they are in at the time).

[CaptHayfever]

Ultimately, I'm uninterested in Hell. I don't plan to go there, and save for humorous depictions in fiction & my own comedically grandiose descriptions of it, talking about the place bores me.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

[DELICIOUS POISON]

Originally Posted by Princess Zelda of Hyrule

I have yet to be convinced anyone does good just because it's good, or avoids bad just because it's bad.

I suppose that's the difference between you and I. I'm not spineless. :P

[Princess Zelda of Hyrule]

At the same time, I, at least, frequently do things for no reason aside from that they help someone else. Because I like doing that sort of thing. I like doing that sort of thing because it's helpful.

You do helpful things because you like doing helpful things?

[Kil'jaeden]

What is good anyway? Is anything done for its own sake?

[Sarai and Samiel]

Yes. And I like doing helpful things because they're helpful. So, you see, that's a full loop, and neither one of us is going to catch the other out on it, so don't bother trying, natch? ^_^

[Princess Zelda of Hyrule]

That works for me. My brain is too tired for debate, anyway.

[DELICIOUS POISON]

Just keep avoiding it.