It's one thing to put references to God in courthouses....

**Crazyswordsman** · 04-18-2008, 04:29 PM

It's another to put a picture of Jesus and say "To know peace, obey these laws." Further proof that the religious right (edited for Wy....) doesn't just want God in the public sphere, but only their very strict version of it. -CSM

Kil'jaeden · 04-18-2008, 04:56 PM

It really doesn't make a difference if some judge puts it up. Whether or not it is up in the courthouse will not affect the truth of any statements or the personal beliefs of the judge that may influence his decisions. Nor will it affect the laws or the Constitution. It's not hurting anyone just hanging on a wall.

I am nobody · 04-18-2008, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kil'jaeden

It really doesn't make a difference if some judge puts it up.

It shows that the judge has a religious preference.

Quote:

It's not hurting anyone just hanging on a wall.

It's offensive to non-Christians.

**Crazyswordsman** · 04-18-2008, 06:05 PM

I'm not Christian and I would certainly be offended if a picture of Jesus hung in a court where I was sitting unless there were pictures of deities from every religion there with him. -CSM

Sarai and Samiel · 04-18-2008, 07:28 PM

Honestly, I'm pretty unhappy with the whole swearing on the Bible thing. From where I'm sitting, as a non-Christian, I think it would be pretty disrespectful for me to swear to tell the truth on the Bible- First off, I don't believe in it as a religious text, so in that sense me swearing on it wouldn't mean anything. Second off, I don't believe in it as a religious text, so if I do so, I'm either mocking Christians or devaluing their holy text.

In light of that, Jesus in the courtroom, particularly as a simple reminder of acting well (which was what, near as I can tell, the guy was about- and not about faith to Judaeo-Christian-Moslem deity) seems pretty minor.

**Wyborn** · 04-18-2008, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazyswordsman

the religious wrong

Do you read half the things you type?

**Crazyswordsman** · 04-18-2008, 09:26 PM

^You must be referring to the other half. But these guys certainly aren't right, at least in my point of view. -CSM

**Dr. Horrible** · 04-18-2008, 09:30 PM

I think he was mostly criticizing your affinity for silly, derogatory nicknames for various things.

Kil'jaeden · 04-18-2008, 09:33 PM

If the judge has a religious preference, which almost anyone who adheres to a particular religion will have anyway, a picture being taken down will not affect anything. I'm all for separation of Church and State, and do not want a state where the courts consist of opening the holy text for sentencing, like in some places. But, I think that people nit-pick too much about it, just on the basis of being offended. People getting offended is not a very good reason. People might get offended if it were taken down, for one. Either way someone doesn't like it. I know that if the RR were to call for the boycott of a film a book, or want something taken down because it offends them, then their offense would not count for much.

**Crazyswordsman** · 04-18-2008, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deku Trii

I think he was mostly criticizing your affinity for silly, derogatory nicknames for various things.

Okay I'm sorry and I changed it. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me?

And I certainly would get offended if a judge would force me to do something involving praying to Jesus or swearing on his Bible. -CSM

Sarai and Samiel · 04-18-2008, 11:15 PM

I will point out that Wyborn's point there was that you basically, thanks to wording, began the topic on a sort of attacking note, rather than presenting your argument entirely (as opposed to mostly) rationally.

**L007 is Cooler than Dylan** · 04-19-2008, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazyswordsman

I'm not Christian and I would certainly be offended if a picture of Jesus hung in a court where I was sitting unless there were pictures of deities from every religion there with him. -CSM

Because we all know what great decisions the Greek gods can make, and the mercy of those Egyptian gods.

**Crazyswordsman** · 04-19-2008, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agent 4(L00)7

and the mercy of those Egyptian gods.

They enslaved my people. But they're a dead religion. Whereas Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists are all active. -CSM

***Ace Mercury*** · 04-19-2008, 02:38 AM

So, from the article, they put up a picture of Jesus, then someone complained. The ACLU were awarded damages; they asked for one dollar (I assume as a token amount, or for laundry). There's a bunch of other pictures on the wall now with Jesus, and that's apparently okay because it's no longer a religious message. This doesn't seem like a particularly impressive example of the religious right imposing on civil freedom with impunity.

[ Edit: the article title is hilarious in retrospect: "ACLU 1, Jesus 0" ]

Also, as an agnostic/atheist, you can give testimony without swearing on a bible; you say an affirmation instead, with the effect of saying you'll abide by the letter and spirit of the law, under the peril of perjury. (ref: The Straight Dope: How do courts swear in atheists?)

I am nobody · 04-19-2008, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kil'jaeden

But, I think that people nit-pick too much about it, just on the basis of being offended. People getting offended is not a very good reason.

This would mean I could put up KKK signs in a courthouse, and no one could have them taken down because they were only offending them.

Quote:

I know that if the RR were to call for the boycott of a film a book, or want something taken down because it offends them, then their offense would not count for much.

The movie/book isn't state-owned.

**Dr. Horrible** · 04-19-2008, 02:30 PM

This isn't really a theism vs. atheism thing. It's more about what constitutes a violation of separation of church and state. Personally, I don't imagine anyone's actually offended by this, though I think some people have had society tell them they should be offended by it so much that they believe it themselves.

Inferno Dragon · 04-20-2008, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazyswordsman

They enslaved my people. But they're a dead religion. Whereas Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists are all active. -CSM

they weren't slaves they were hired artisans and servants. the people of egypt hired them to work for them. and even if there were slaves, which there might have been, they were treated much better than slaves in other countries at the time. face it, back then egypt was a paradise even if they went out of their way to worship their gods.

also, the religion isn't dead, i'm living proof of that because I worship the egyptian gods.

**Crazyswordsman** · 04-20-2008, 12:49 PM

Well, okay, you're one person. That's perfectly acceptable, now tell me where there's an active community. -CSM

Inferno Dragon · 04-20-2008, 01:30 PM

I'm slowly reviving it, I hope to one day pull everyone's heads out of their asses in my community and convert them to egyptian paganism, but it will take time considering how they are mostly evangelical and fundamentalist christians.

**Crazyswordsman** · 04-20-2008, 02:55 PM

Well I wish you all the best success in doing that. I'll stick to Judaism, thanks. -CSM

04-18-2008, 04:29 PM	#1
Crazyswordsman RPG Mod Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Booyaville (yeah!) Gender: Posts: 8,321 Thanks: 579 Thanked 429 Times in 281 Posts Points: 150,878.31 Bank: 52,340.71 Total Points: 203,219.02 Donate	It's one thing to put references to God in courthouses.... It's another to put a picture of Jesus and say "To know peace, obey these laws." Further proof that the religious right (edited for Wy....) doesn't just want God in the public sphere, but only their very strict version of it. -CSM Last edited by Crazyswordsman; 04-18-2008 at 10:38 PM.

04-18-2008, 07:28 PM	#5
Sarai and Samiel Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Aisle 12, between the kumquats and the radicchio. Gender: Posts: 2,285 Thanks: 163 Thanked 124 Times in 86 Posts Points: 3,316.97 Bank: 92,324.85 Total Points: 95,641.82 Donate	Sarai Sez: Honestly, I'm pretty unhappy with the whole swearing on the Bible thing. From where I'm sitting, as a non-Christian, I think it would be pretty disrespectful for me to swear to tell the truth on the Bible- First off, I don't believe in it as a religious text, so in that sense me swearing on it wouldn't mean anything. Second off, I don't believe in it as a religious text, so if I do so, I'm either mocking Christians or devaluing their holy text. In light of that, Jesus in the courtroom, particularly as a simple reminder of acting well (which was what, near as I can tell, the guy was about- and not about faith to Judaeo-Christian-Moslem deity) seems pretty minor.

04-18-2008, 11:15 PM	#11
Sarai and Samiel Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Aisle 12, between the kumquats and the radicchio. Gender: Posts: 2,285 Thanks: 163 Thanked 124 Times in 86 Posts Points: 3,316.97 Bank: 92,324.85 Total Points: 95,641.82 Donate	Samiel Sez: I will point out that Wyborn's point there was that you basically, thanks to wording, began the topic on a sort of attacking note, rather than presenting your argument entirely (as opposed to mostly) rationally.

04-18-2008, 04:56 PM	#2
Kil'jaeden Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: in your mind Gender: Posts: 1,495 Thanks: 19 Thanked 42 Times in 32 Posts Points: 11,190.92 Bank: 1,372.71 Total Points: 12,563.63 Donate	It really doesn't make a difference if some judge puts it up. Whether or not it is up in the courthouse will not affect the truth of any statements or the personal beliefs of the judge that may influence his decisions. Nor will it affect the laws or the Constitution. It's not hurting anyone just hanging on a wall.

04-18-2008, 06:05 PM	#4
Crazyswordsman RPG Mod Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Booyaville (yeah!) Gender: Posts: 8,321 Thanks: 579 Thanked 429 Times in 281 Posts Points: 150,878.31 Bank: 52,340.71 Total Points: 203,219.02 Donate	I'm not Christian and I would certainly be offended if a picture of Jesus hung in a court where I was sitting unless there were pictures of deities from every religion there with him. -CSM

04-18-2008, 09:26 PM	#7
Crazyswordsman RPG Mod Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Booyaville (yeah!) Gender: Posts: 8,321 Thanks: 579 Thanked 429 Times in 281 Posts Points: 150,878.31 Bank: 52,340.71 Total Points: 203,219.02 Donate	^You must be referring to the other half. But these guys certainly aren't right, at least in my point of view. -CSM

04-18-2008, 09:30 PM	#8
Dr. Horrible PP&R Mod Current Events Mod Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: More important than where is when.... Gender: Posts: 6,718 Thanks: 124 Thanked 448 Times in 298 Posts Points: 2,349.07 Bank: 3,747,681.64 Total Points: 3,750,030.71 Donate	I think he was mostly criticizing your affinity for silly, derogatory nicknames for various things.

04-18-2008, 09:33 PM	#9
Kil'jaeden Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: in your mind Gender: Posts: 1,495 Thanks: 19 Thanked 42 Times in 32 Posts Points: 11,190.92 Bank: 1,372.71 Total Points: 12,563.63 Donate	If the judge has a religious preference, which almost anyone who adheres to a particular religion will have anyway, a picture being taken down will not affect anything. I'm all for separation of Church and State, and do not want a state where the courts consist of opening the holy text for sentencing, like in some places. But, I think that people nit-pick too much about it, just on the basis of being offended. People getting offended is not a very good reason. People might get offended if it were taken down, for one. Either way someone doesn't like it. I know that if the RR were to call for the boycott of a film a book, or want something taken down because it offends them, then their offense would not count for much.

04-19-2008, 02:38 AM	#14
*Ace Mercury* Marshmallow Knight ☆ Supermod Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Southern Ontario Gender: Posts: 19,103 Thanks: 370 Thanked 1,568 Times in 811 Posts Blog Entries: 1 Points: 109,230.98 Bank: 22,102,325.90 Total Points: 22,211,556.88 Donate	So, from the article, they put up a picture of Jesus, then someone complained. The ACLU were awarded damages; they asked for one dollar (I assume as a token amount, or for laundry). There's a bunch of other pictures on the wall now with Jesus, and that's apparently okay because it's no longer a religious message. This doesn't seem like a particularly impressive example of the religious right imposing on civil freedom with impunity. [ Edit: the article title is hilarious in retrospect: "ACLU 1, Jesus 0" ] Also, as an agnostic/atheist, you can give testimony without swearing on a bible; you say an affirmation instead, with the effect of saying you'll abide by the letter and spirit of the law, under the peril of perjury. (ref: The Straight Dope: How do courts swear in atheists?)

04-19-2008, 02:30 PM	#16
Dr. Horrible PP&R Mod Current Events Mod Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: More important than where is when.... Gender: Posts: 6,718 Thanks: 124 Thanked 448 Times in 298 Posts Points: 2,349.07 Bank: 3,747,681.64 Total Points: 3,750,030.71 Donate	This isn't really a theism vs. atheism thing. It's more about what constitutes a violation of separation of church and state. Personally, I don't imagine anyone's actually offended by this, though I think some people have had society tell them they should be offended by it so much that they believe it themselves.

04-20-2008, 12:49 PM	#18
Crazyswordsman RPG Mod Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Booyaville (yeah!) Gender: Posts: 8,321 Thanks: 579 Thanked 429 Times in 281 Posts Points: 150,878.31 Bank: 52,340.71 Total Points: 203,219.02 Donate	Well, okay, you're one person. That's perfectly acceptable, now tell me where there's an active community. -CSM

04-20-2008, 01:30 PM	#19
Inferno Dragon Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Planet Draco Gender: Posts: 5,960 Thanks: 52 Thanked 33 Times in 26 Posts Points: 36,685.08 Bank: 27,754.67 Total Points: 64,439.75 Donate	I'm slowly reviving it, I hope to one day pull everyone's heads out of their asses in my community and convert them to egyptian paganism, but it will take time considering how they are mostly evangelical and fundamentalist christians.

04-20-2008, 02:55 PM	#20
Crazyswordsman RPG Mod Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Booyaville (yeah!) Gender: Posts: 8,321 Thanks: 579 Thanked 429 Times in 281 Posts Points: 150,878.31 Bank: 52,340.71 Total Points: 203,219.02 Donate	Well I wish you all the best success in doing that. I'll stick to Judaism, thanks. -CSM