Does the Universe defy the laws of cause and effect?

Vapor · 06-16-2008, 07:50 PM

I was considering the First Cause Argument for the Existence of God one day (The idea that there must be an uncaused event, namely God, in order for the Universe to come into being), and came upon this train of thought.

I thought that God must, logically, have a cause as well- the idea of an entity being there without a cause completely goes over the boundaries of reason, and is just an idea I don't like.

Eliminating that argument from my mind, If there has to be an uncaused effect for time to take place, doesn't that completely go against the laws of cause and effect as we, or at least I, know it? Does this imply that The laws of cause and effect are, at least sometimes, not completely solid laws?

What do you think?

PSYCHOKID909 · 06-16-2008, 10:42 PM

42.

Now that's out of the way I'd just like to say that we humans probly will never understand the univeres in its entirty. After all our years of gathering data on our own planet there is still so much we don't under stand about it. Though with time and resaerch we may be able to gather a better geniral understanding of our universe as we know it, thought I don't expect that to come any time soon.

- You stupid dog!

Mikhail Gorbachev · 06-16-2008, 11:02 PM

I've always wondered this too. I never figured it out. =/
I think causality can't exist without time, though. There is no such thing as 'before' the universe because 'before' makes so sense when applied to a situation where time doesn't exist. In a situation without time, causality is meaningless because the foundations of causality are time. Something has to happen first for something else to happen, but that no longer applies.
Just my guess.

Speed is just Speed · 06-17-2008, 12:45 PM

I believe god made us smart enough to question our exsistence but not smart enough to figure it out.

Mikhail Gorbachev · 06-17-2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speed is OVER 9000

I believe god made us smart enough to question our exsistence but not smart enough to figure it out.

?
What do you mean by questioning/figuring out our existence? You mean WHY we exist? Well... if a god created everything, I don't see how people couldn't be smart enough to figure out why we exist since there are quite a few people who believe a god created the world.

That Guy · 06-17-2008, 07:06 PM

The obvious answer is that Time Loops around, and that the beginning of the universe was caused by the End of the Universe.

QED

(I made this up but it could be plausible, maybe)

Speed is just Speed · 06-18-2008, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikhail Gorbachev

?
What do you mean by questioning/figuring out our existence? You mean WHY we exist? Well... if a god created everything, I don't see how people couldn't be smart enough to figure out why we exist since there are quite a few people who believe a god created the world.

Why god would create us I mean.

Vapor · 06-18-2008, 03:31 PM

Why would He do that? It just seems to cruelly torment us with a curiosity that can never be satisfied.

Kil'jaeden · 06-21-2008, 02:16 AM

You could always ask how to define causality, or even if it exists.

***CaptHayfever*** · 06-21-2008, 10:12 AM

Some type of causality must exist, otherwise the game Mouse Trap wouldn't work.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

06-16-2008, 07:50 PM	#1
Vapor Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Far beyond the twisted reach, of craaazy sorroow. Gender: Posts: 3,200 Thanks: 93 Thanked 125 Times in 85 Posts Points: 3,680.58 Bank: 30,321.70 Total Points: 34,002.29 Donate	Does the Universe defy the laws of cause and effect? I was considering the First Cause Argument for the Existence of God one day (The idea that there must be an uncaused event, namely God, in order for the Universe to come into being), and came upon this train of thought. I thought that God must, logically, have a cause as well- the idea of an entity being there without a cause completely goes over the boundaries of reason, and is just an idea I don't like. Eliminating that argument from my mind, If there has to be an uncaused effect for time to take place, doesn't that completely go against the laws of cause and effect as we, or at least I, know it? Does this imply that The laws of cause and effect are, at least sometimes, not completely solid laws? What do you think?

06-16-2008, 10:42 PM	#2
PSYCHOKID909 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: On the run. Gender: Posts: 8,331 Thanks: 66 Thanked 30 Times in 26 Posts Points: 4,276.82 Bank: 3,253.49 Total Points: 7,530.31 Donate	42. Now that's out of the way I'd just like to say that we humans probly will never understand the univeres in its entirty. After all our years of gathering data on our own planet there is still so much we don't under stand about it. Though with time and resaerch we may be able to gather a better geniral understanding of our universe as we know it, thought I don't expect that to come any time soon. - You stupid dog!

06-16-2008, 11:02 PM	#3
Mikhail Gorbachev Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Gender: Posts: 9,580 Thanks: 29 Thanked 79 Times in 63 Posts Points: 53.71 Bank: 30,317.43 Total Points: 30,371.14 Donate	I've always wondered this too. I never figured it out. =/ I think causality can't exist without time, though. There is no such thing as 'before' the universe because 'before' makes so sense when applied to a situation where time doesn't exist. In a situation without time, causality is meaningless because the foundations of causality are time. Something has to happen first for something else to happen, but that no longer applies. Just my guess.

06-17-2008, 12:45 PM	#4
Speed is just Speed Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Fighten For My Friends Gender: Posts: 1,506 Thanks: 383 Thanked 70 Times in 62 Posts Blog Entries: 1 Points: 13,805.53 Bank: 0.00 Total Points: 13,805.53 Donate	I believe god made us smart enough to question our exsistence but not smart enough to figure it out.

06-17-2008, 07:06 PM	#6
That Guy Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: lo-ca-tion; Noun- 1. a place or situation occupied: That house is in a fine location Gender: Posts: 5,715 Thanks: 302 Thanked 325 Times in 272 Posts Points: 106.71 Bank: 43,827.40 Total Points: 43,934.11 Donate	The obvious answer is that Time Loops around, and that the beginning of the universe was caused by the End of the Universe. QED (I made this up but it could be plausible, maybe)

06-18-2008, 03:31 PM	#8
Vapor Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Far beyond the twisted reach, of craaazy sorroow. Gender: Posts: 3,200 Thanks: 93 Thanked 125 Times in 85 Posts Points: 3,680.58 Bank: 30,321.70 Total Points: 34,002.29 Donate	Why would He do that? It just seems to cruelly torment us with a curiosity that can never be satisfied.

06-21-2008, 02:16 AM	#9
Kil'jaeden Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: in your mind Gender: Posts: 1,469 Thanks: 19 Thanked 39 Times in 30 Posts Points: 10,258.58 Bank: 999.94 Total Points: 11,258.52 Donate	You could always ask how to define causality, or even if it exists.

06-21-2008, 10:12 AM	#10
*CaptHayfever* Smash Supermod Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: (n) - the place where I am Gender: Posts: 19,495 Thanks: 175 Thanked 813 Times in 515 Posts Points: 110,672.48 Bank: 1,171.59 Total Points: 111,844.07 Donate	Some type of causality must exist, otherwise the game Mouse Trap wouldn't work. And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"