The Book of Job

[Prince Toad]

I've given it a lot of thought since I read it a couple months ago, and I want to know from the Christians here who have read it: what is the point of this book? From the Christian perspective, that is. I have a lot to say about it but I'd rather start from there.

(Also, hi everyone, it's been a while.)

[Dylan]

Hey PT. The moral of Job, in so many words, is to trust God no matter how crappy things get. Job lost a lot, but he never lost his faith, despite what his wife and friends told him. In the end, Job is rewarded for his faith.

That's just the bare bones, at least.

[Prince Toad]

Well, I have two things to say to that.

First, Job kinda did lose his faith. It was his friends who tried to convince him that God was still great even despite all the ****ty things that happened. As for his wife, I'm pretty sure Satan killed her (which is the same as saying God did, since God actively permitted him to).

Second, why would anyone trust the God that's in the Book of Job? This is the basic surface criticism that anyone would think of on reading it: God allows Job to suffer because of, essentially, a challenge from Satan. That doesn't seem like a god anyone should trust. (Again, I have a lot more to say assuming that nothing gets resolved at this stage.)

[CaptHayfever]

Job is a parable, not a history. Even in some of the strictest, most literal interpretations of the Bible, the tale is fictitious.

If memory serves me, Job's friends actually were tormenting him further, each spending pages telling him how much he sucks & that God had forsaken him. He knew, however, that he was right with the Lord, & continued to praise God even while suffering, & it was for that he was rewarded with even greater prosperity than he'd had at the beginning of the story.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

[Prince Toad]

Well yes, I'd be the last one to say that Job is history. But that doesn't change my criticism of it. Why would the parable be constructed in a way that makes God seem at best petty, at worst an arrogant, easily deceived buffoon?

Job never renounces his faith, BUT he does indirectly accuse God of being unfair. He never comes right out and says it, but he maintains that he has been virtuous and that he wants to know why God has afflicted him, because it seems unjust.

His friends just tell him that he must have sinned, because otherwise he wouldn't be suffering. They're actually more pious than Job. They don't have any significance to me; they're just bleating sheep. The worst is Elihu, the young guy who comes after Job has convinced his friends that they're wrong. He gets angry at Job's friends for giving up and proceeds to give the exact same argument. Before Job gets to respond, God himself steps in. But there's no reason to go into that at this point, that gets deeper into it.

[CaptHayfever]

Why would a landowner banish a servant for not gambling with the landowner's money? Why would a rabbit care whether he could outrun a turtle? Fables never make sense when external context is applied.

If parents explained their reasoning to their children, there would be a lot less rebellion from teenagers. Job's faith in God doesn't preclude his wondering why this is happening; indeed, since he knew he hadn't done anything, the situation was all the more confusing.

His friends are more pious than Job in the same way that the Pharisees are more pious than Magdelene...in the letter of the law, not the spirit. I don't remember Elihu, so I can't say one way or another about him.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

[Perrin Aybara]

I thought the Book of Job was the classifieds section of the bible?

-jay

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Perrin Aybara

I thought the Book of Job was the classifieds section of the bible?

-jay

Thanks for stopping in, folks. Drive safe.

[Lurch1982]

Originally Posted by South Park episode Cartmanland

Sheila: Kyle, we wanna tell you about the book of Job. It's a story from the Bible.

Kyle: I've had enough of the Bible. What has it gotten me?

Gerald: Oh, I think you'll see differently after hearing this. Sit down, Kyle. [Kyle gets cross, and Gerald corrects himself] Uh, okay. [begins the story. A Middle Eastern scene appears] You see, Job lived in the east of Jordan a long long time ago. [camera pans across the landscape and rests behind a man in a red robe and long gray hair] Job was a great man. He was blessed with ten lovely children [they come out of a building with their mother], a wonderful wife, and many friends. [his friends show up to join the family behnd Job, a proud and happy man]

Sheila: [a shot of Job petting a bull] He was godly, and a good man, and fed the poor. [Job brings a bag of food to a woman with three kids next to her. One of them, a girl, walks up, and her mother hands her a loaf of bread]

Gerald: He was the most upright and honorable of men, and every day he praised God. [Job falls to his knees in praise, as his shepherds look on]

Sheila: But one day, Satan went up to heaven and talked to God.

Kyle: [still mad] Satan talked to God?

Sheila: Yes, in the book of Job, Satan talks to God. And God says to Satan, "Have you seen Job? He is a great man, and he praises me every day."

Gerald: But Satan said, "Oh yeah? He only praises you because you gave him so much. If you didn't give him those things, he would curse your name."

Sheila: To which God said, "Oh yeah? I'll show you, Satan! I'll take those things away from Job and he will still praise my name."

Gerald: And so, God had a bunch of barbarians come in and slaughter Job's oxen and donkeys, and murder all his workers. [that scene is shown]

Sheila: Then God sent his fireballs from the sky and killed his sheep and the rest of his employees. [meteorites rain down and destroy the fields and workers there, as well as the sheep]

Gerald: And then, as Job's sons and daughters were eating, God sent a mighty wind to collapse the house and crush and kill them all. [the palm trees bend low as the winds pick up, then the two-story house collapses as the palm trees are swept away by the winds, and Job's family dies]

Sheila: Job was terribly sad, but he fell to his knees and said, "The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away," and praised God's name. [Job falls to his knees and prays to God.]

Gerald: So then, Job got painful sores all over his body. [shown, with the burning fields behind him]

Sheila: He was in terrible, miserable pain all day, every day. But he still kept his faith. [another shot of Job among the dead, then a close-up of Job with his sores]

Gerald: God said to Sata, "See? I told you. Job still praises me." [all that is heard after that is the sound of the heart monitor attached to Kyle.]

Kyle: [a few seconds later] And that's it? That's the end?

Sheila: Basically.

Kyle: That's the most horrible story I've ever heard. Why would God do such a horrible thing to a good person just to prove a point to Satan?

Gerald: Oh. Uhhh, I don't know.

Kyle: Then I was right. Job has all his children killed, and Michael Bay gets to keep making movies. There isn't a God.

[Joker]

Originally Posted by Prince Toad

Well yes, I'd be the last one to say that Job is history. But that doesn't change my criticism of it. Why would the parable be constructed in a way that makes God seem at best petty, at worst an arrogant, easily deceived buffoon?

Job never renounces his faith, BUT he does indirectly accuse God of being unfair. He never comes right out and says it, but he maintains that he has been virtuous and that he wants to know why God has afflicted him, because it seems unjust.

His friends just tell him that he must have sinned, because otherwise he wouldn't be suffering. They're actually more pious than Job. They don't have any significance to me; they're just bleating sheep. The worst is Elihu, the young guy who comes after Job has convinced his friends that they're wrong. He gets angry at Job's friends for giving up and proceeds to give the exact same argument. Before Job gets to respond, God himself steps in. But there's no reason to go into that at this point, that gets deeper into it.

PT your pretty much on point. At best, most individuals/Christians do not see the underlying significance of this story other than the usual “do not question god”.

Job in fact does question god after much of the blessings he had received had been stripped away. At which point God sternly tells Job “Who are you to question the will of God” not in those exact words but in essence. What most of us do not realize or see is the theme of God’s existence outside time/space/emotion/logic.

For those who believe in God, they accept that God is in fact all knowing. He has all knowledge of events because time does not apply to him. So before the event with Job took place God knows of the outcome and how it will go along. The story of Job is supposed to teach us that we as humans do not posses the capability to think with the logic of an all knowing ever present being. That in fact things that seem, malicious or unfair or simply stupid to us only appears that way because our minds and logic is feeble when compared to an all knowing being. You can read this story and get from it that God is some irrational being who can fly off the handle at the slightest challenge of his will or power. We see only the human qualities that he displays like vengeance, love and peace. These are the themes that the story tries to evoke in the reader. As you read through the story of Job you might wonder why God would even entertain the devils challenge rather than brush it off and keep Job happy.

In essence we could never understand the true reason for his actions. We are flawed creatures with a flawed sense of logic. This is what God tries to get Job to see. He wants Job to realize that whether or not he understands Gods will or agrees with it he is still blind to Gods logic. He must rely on his faith that God knows what he is doing even it seems cruel or evil.

God functions outside our normal perception of reality. And because of this the saying goes “God works in mysterious ways” because his ways are impossible to fully understand. The best we can do is to interpret them as mysteries or things that can not be fully explained or understood. So when you read the story of Job remember that the way you see Gods reactions and the way you see him deal with the situation is being based on your Human point of you. Unless you are a God you’re not going to fully understand what the true essence of his intentions were.

And last we need to keep in mind that this story was written by human hands. As dictated by a human author who tries to present Gods actions and emotions in way that we can best come to understand them. So in away the true reason as to why God does what he does is lost to us.


Edit:

Yay for 12 years of Catholic School and Theology Classes @ CSULB

[Kil'jaeden]

I always wondered why God wants praise so much. And he wants it regardless of what he does, no questions asked. The Bible is always going on about praise.

[Valigarmander]

I never did quite warm up to the whole "God destroys your farm, murders your family and strikes you with a deadly disease to win a bet with Satan" thing, but I do understand the moral relating to having faith in God.

Originally Posted by Lurch1982

SP quote

Damn it, I was thinking about that as I was reading down the page.

[Prince Toad]

CH, I don't know what you're trying to say. The fact that Job is a parable doesn't excuse it from being full of bull****. You can't just go "Oh well, it's a fable, it's not supposed to make sense." It's in the Bible. I can criticize it.

Job never stops believing in God. But his faith in a perfect, benevolent God is clearly shaken. And I'm not sure how Job's friends' condemning him because they do believe in a perfect, benevolent God makes them somehow less pious than he is. Job is probably more virtuous, but piety and virtue are different. As for Elihu, he can be treated essentially the same as Job's friends, since he says the same ****.

Lurch, thumbs up.

Yeah, Joker, I was hung up on that for a while. But then my friend pointed out that we do know the reason for God's actions. It's right there in the beginning of the story. They aren't good reasons, they aren't full of inscrutable divine purpose. And God's actions are obviously cruel and unjust. I don't buy that "humans can't understand divine purpose" crap. Unless God's conception of justice is the exact opposite of ours, God is being unjust. You can't get around it.

"The story being written by human hands" is pretty obviously Catholic schoolteacher bull**** that they can use as a "Get out of our-faith-doesn't-make-sense free" card. If a student brings up something that can't be answered I'm sure that's what they spit out. "God works in mysterious ways" is the same thing. Using those as an excuse is degrading (I'm accusing your teachers here, not you) and I'm not going to dignify them with any more of a response.

Here, I might as well give my full take on Job now. The devil deceives God into doing what he, the devil, wants. This is impressive, given that God is supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing. The speeches of Job's friends have no value-- like I said, sheep bleating. Job, though, has the courage to recognize that he has suffered a divine wrong and to question the faith which had once kept him secure and prosperous. He doesn't quite manage to forswear God, which is disappointing, but he comes close. And God's speech at the end is a farce. He does not claim to be just, as Job could successfully argue that point, but he does assert that he is all-powerful. This is true. But since Satan had already tricked God into enacting his evil wishes, one can easily imagine him sitting on the side laughing his ass off as God blunders on about how powerful he is. The devil has usurped God's undeniable power, bent it to his will. Therefore even though God is technically correct-- he did make the world and all that-- he comes off as, like I said before, an arrogant and easily deceived buffoon.

There, my blasphemy is complete. Say what you will.

[Joker]

Originally Posted by Prince Toad

CH, I don't know what you're trying to say. The fact that Job is a parable doesn't excuse it from being full of bull****. You can't just go "Oh well, it's a fable, it's not supposed to make sense." It's in the Bible. I can criticize it.

Job never stops believing in God. But his faith in a perfect, benevolent God is clearly shaken. And I'm not sure how Job's friends' condemning him because they do believe in a perfect, benevolent God makes them somehow less pious than he is. Job is probably more virtuous, but piety and virtue are different. As for Elihu, he can be treated essentially the same as Job's friends, since he says the same ****.

Lurch, thumbs up.

Yeah, Joker, I was hung up on that for a while. But then my friend pointed out that we do know the reason for God's actions. It's right there in the beginning of the story. They aren't good reasons, they aren't full of inscrutable divine purpose. And God's actions are obviously cruel and unjust. I don't buy that "humans can't understand divine purpose" crap. Unless God's conception of justice is the exact opposite of ours, God is being unjust. You can't get around it.

"The story being written by human hands" is pretty obviously Catholic schoolteacher bull**** that they can use as a "Get out of our-faith-doesn't-make-sense free" card. If a student brings up something that can't be answered I'm sure that's what they spit out. "God works in mysterious ways" is the same thing. Using those as an excuse is degrading (I'm accusing your teachers here, not you) and I'm not going to dignify them with any more of a response.

Here, I might as well give my full take on Job now. The devil deceives God into doing what he, the devil, wants. This is impressive, given that God is supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing. The speeches of Job's friends have no value-- like I said, sheep bleating. Job, though, has the courage to recognize that he has suffered a divine wrong and to question the faith which had once kept him secure and prosperous. He doesn't quite manage to forswear God, which is disappointing, but he comes close. And God's speech at the end is a farce. He does not claim to be just, as Job could successfully argue that point, but he does assert that he is all-powerful. This is true. But since Satan had already tricked God into enacting his evil wishes, one can easily imagine him sitting on the side laughing his ass off as God blunders on about how powerful he is. The devil has usurped God's undeniable power, bent it to his will. Therefore even though God is technically correct-- he did make the world and all that-- he comes off as, like I said before, an arrogant and easily deceived buffoon.

There, my blasphemy is complete. Say what you will.

So in essence you posses the intellectual fortitude to judge some one with omnipotence and decipher the meaning of their logic and way of thinking....

Kudos dude!!

But you do make a valid point and I do agree with what your saying, I just hold a different view and take a more humble stance that my faith can blind me even to the truth. By that I mean I could believe whole heartedly that God is some magical being who I can't understand and I will follow what he says with out a second thought....even if it turns out there is no God and reality is just the work of some flying Meatball.



But if you do believe in God then by following that logic Satan, Angels, Heaven, Hell, Job, you, me, we were all created by him. Do you think he made these things with out knowing every action, possible out come or end result. Why would God get mad at something he knew was going to happen? And if he is as big of a Jerk as the book of Job can make him seem, why not just force people to believe him...why give us free will? I don't know and if you happen to know the reason behind that well then I would appreciate you sharing it with the class.

Also you can't blame the teachers, they were teaching in a catholic school so it’s not like they were going to give us information in direct opposition to what their literature read. I am thankful enough however that I didn't just rely on one source for my information. I took Theology in College for the simple fact that I wanted to be educated on all aspects of religion from all cultures not just my own. I have qualms with certain aspects of my Catholic faith and Religion - Praying to Saints anyone?? But I do follow my faith in accepting God's will despite my understanding of it. You can say that we do know the reason for God’s actions but unless you went up to God and said “ Yo Meatball Dude what’s up with the PMS attitude to da hommie Job?” and him giving you a direct answer like “ That fool tried to buy yellow cake and some aluminum tubes….do you know what the **** you can do with aluminum tubes?” well then your going on hearsay. Even the bible itself is a compilation of written works that some old farts got together and said….”yeah I like this one lets put this one in the canonical bible and leave that one about Jesus bitch slapping the priest out”. There are far more books than what you read in the bible today that were original included and taught by Christians before the first ecumenical council. So you got a bunch of sinful guys sitting around dictating what will learn and what won’t. To say that the books were written by human hand is a load of bull, well I ask you to consider the human mind and falable nature.

How do we know that the author wasn’t pissed off because his wife recently passed away from a horrible disease? And the only way he could interpret this was by creating a story where God seems to punish the just at the behest of the wicked. In the end we can never know if the guy writing the damn thing was doing so because God inspired him or because he was some L Ron Hubbard genius with a great story to tell. Hell even some of the Popes where vicious unforgiving bastards who used the line “It is God’s will to kill infidels and take back Jerusalem” to make the catholic followers believe they were obeying God and not some everyday Joe who has gone mad with power. In the end as Christians the underlying faith is that the word of God is written on our souls so that God does not live in some book or some church but instead he resides in side of you making you feel remorse when you sin and joy when you love. I used to ask one of the Sisters who taught our religion class.

“What does God do to those indigenous people who even today live in the unexplored parts of the world and who have never heard the word of God? Does God give them some kind of free pass because no one ever showed them a bible?” Her response was…

“Gods will is written in the soul of all human being, the teaching of the bible are as the name implies. Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. These simple things like kindness, peace and love are human qualities than anyone can posses, regardless of the word of God. These are things that God wants from us. You can go your whole life with out praising God or can worshiping a false one, but on the day you are judged and you see for yourself, you have the chance to accept him into your heart and if you do he will let you.” The Christian God is one who is supposed to be of unconditional love, one who can forgive killers, whores, thieves and even the non believers.

The book of Job should stir with in you the conflict that Job and his friends felt and I think it did that. You can read the book and go “what the hell was God thinking? Why would a just God even listen to the Devil? Why would someone who professes to be all about love allow for such pain and suffering”. In that way we become like Job, do we accept it blindly and write it off as something we will never understand or do we consider God to be acting out like a human who wants to prove his power over us and who doesn’t like to be called out on his BS? The Greeks created their versions of Gods to be just as human as they were; they had sex, cheated on their wives, thrived in the glory of their worship and were prone to human emotions like jealousy and envy. They did this to make their deities more relatable to their society easier to understand. In a way we do the same thing with our Christian God. We see the death and destruction of the world and we automatically assume its because Gods punishing us or is mad at us or probably got another challenge from the devil and wanted to show him that we can stand a little pain and suffering. Who knows? I don’t but I like to write pretty words and pretend that I do…so nyeh

[Prince Toad]

Okay, now you're being degrading. Give humanity a little more respect.

I have less of a problem with the belief that God is omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient... but only if you're a Calvinist. Calvin took that belief to its logical conclusion. Now, I still have problems with it-- I'm sure you've read Candide, or just taken a look around you-- but at least he was consistent. Protestants and especially Catholics are just *****footing around it. Do you seriously believe in such a God and in free will? If the universe is just God's divine plan unrolling, then we are all just puppets on strings. If there is a heaven or hell, some of us were chosen beforehand to go there and others weren't. That is at least a consistent view. The problem with Calvin (well technically with Leibniz, who was trying to explain the contradiction that Calvin didn't) is that this is clearly not the best of all possible worlds, which it must be if there is such a God. I'll accept a God who knows all and is all-powerful, but not one who has those aspects and also is always just and good.

Look, saying that we can't understand his mysterious divine purpose is meaningless to me. Why even have a Bible in that case? Why have higher thought? Why have a PP&R forum? It's a lazy and cowardly response, from anyone, and I won't take it seriously.

It's not really Catholic schoolteachers' fault that they're obliged to spit up bull****. It'd be nice if they just said "Well, I'm not really sure there is a good explanation," that would be more honest, but you can hardly expect them to do that.

At this point you seem to just be discrediting the Bible. Which, um, okay. I agree that the Bible is imperfect, to say the least. But you can't say that and then also use it as the guidebook to life. You've got to choose one or the other. And if you say that it's a guidebook to life, then I have the right to criticize it. If not, then I guess I'm right in saying that Job is insupportable, so I'm happy with that too.

The rest is mostly irrelevant. I know, God wants us all to be filled with lovingkindness, etc. I'm fine with that. That's the part of Christianity I like. I'm happy when people preach that. But it's not what I found when I read parts of the Bible. Certainly not in Job.

[Joker]

I'm not trying to be degrading to humans it just comes out that way. Although in the end you do speak the stinky words of truth

Also it sounds like this conversation is making you heated in the breasts.....I know mine are getting warm, besides you do realize that this entire conversation is a moot point because there is not such thing as Relegion or even human existance for that matter were all just on some kind acid trip

[Bomby]

Yeah, I'm the one who degrades humans.

[Joker]

I like to disagree with people by agreeing with them. It makes my feel good in the toes and I can be a pompus ass with out the remorse of knowing that I spew a bunch of nonsense while trying to pass them off as my actual personal beliefs. If you knew what I really thought about relegion and the aspect of God you would vomit from your ears.



PRAISE BE TO ALLAH!!

[Prince Toad]

Okay, it's good to know that I'm not worthy of hearing your enlightened view on religion. Silly me, what was I thinking, trying to understand with my tiny little man-brain.

Does anyone actually have anything to say?

[Joker]

Its not that your not worthy PT don't be so hard on yourself....your a highly intellgent person with actual valid points that are based on facts and not fiction. Its just that my opinions are hardly worth spouting off at the mouth since they are conjecture and likely to piss you off like a virgin female bleeding for the first time. Your free to speak your mind if you think what you have to say is valid, I simply don't. I would rather make up arguments just to bust your chops. It seems to me that your really taking all this to the heart....how about this, ask HotD for some of those yummy marshmallows and then kick some one in the nuts preferably a midget. That always makes me feel better when I enter into a discussion with some one who doesn’t take my point of view seriously enough to tell me what they honestly think.