Racist Media, or Racist Viewer?

***Cosmonautical*** · 08-03-2009, 11:17 AM

I was watching "banned" cartoons on Youtube, and stumbled on one that claimed to feature racist themes in Disney audio. I don't mean to focus specifically on Disney, but media as a whole. When you see something that looks like a racist stereotype, do you automatically assume it is evidence as racism? In America especially, people are sensitive to things simply because of the pretense they watch them with. After watching most of that video on Youtube, which seemed to show the person who posted it to be a very limited thinker, I wished I could someway correct some of their misperceptions. I made this comment on the video:

Quote:

There's literally no place in any of the films you reference where Disney says "This is what every person of this race is like."

Unfortunately, you're the one with the racist preference of thought. You hear or see a character acting outrageously, and you assume that it is allegorical to the entire race.

I think that's true of a lot of films and audio in general, and their audiences.

Now what I'm asking here is: Do you believe that the media is, intentionally or unintentionally, depicting a racial stereotype? Or do you think that, because it is observably a character of a visually obvious race, gender, or creed, the audience is associating the character with that race, gender, or creed and creating the prejudiced perception?

I think a lot of stereotypes are media-inspired, but more a result of the viewer's perception. People don't seem to understand that it was created for their entertainment, not necessarily their enlightenment. I have no doubt that media can be guilty of perpetuating negative stereotypes, but it's a question of origin more than anything.

Eagle Eye · 08-03-2009, 11:38 AM

95% of any stereotype you can think of has some kind of truth to it. However, that truth is not limited to that category.

America still has a racist mind set, we may have advanced in what we allow each other to do, but in the end, we still have that mind set. Biggest example is Dr. Gates, the black Harvard professor who was arrested by a white cop blahblahblahblahblah. Anyone with a reasonable mind could see that BOTH men were in the wrong, and that it should have never escalated to the point of arrest in the first place. However, just because it was white cop/black man, racism was immediately pointed out.

My point is, racism exists, to what extent? Not sure. Some people are still racist, some people have biases influenced by environment that can be seen as racist but really aren't, and some people could give a damn whether you're white, black, Asian, Hispanic, or Middle Eastern, they still hate you regardless. So IMO, I don't think it's media influenced, I think we do it to ourselves with our over paranoia.

Swordmaster Link · 08-03-2009, 12:39 PM

The way I've always seen it is that the media is aware of how people tend to make assumptions and create certain perceptions of people, so they somewhat intentionally perpetuate stereotypes. Obviously, the real world is much more subtle and not as black and white (in the figurative sense), but the fact of the matter is that it's easier for people to "relate" to things like TV shows, cartoons, etc. when the lowest common denominator is shown. Speaking of America in particular, things like this become touchy because IMO, we're very individualistic (which isn't necessarily a bad thing entirely)...going along with what Andre was saying, people generally don't like it when others attempt to pidgeon-hole them using a stereotype, because it takes away from their uniqueness as a person. For example, if someone were to say "You WOULD be good at basketball, cuz ur black lol".

I think I mentioned this in another topic though, that given all of this I feel that the word "racist" is kind of over-used in a sense, because most stereotypes that are propogated by the media (and subsequently, the people who gobble them up) are amoral in nature, and aren't really value judgements. For example, I would just laugh and think you were an idiot if you were to assume that I love watermelons, but I would be legitimately offended if you were to assume that I stole something from you.

lawl the only 2 replies are from black ppl speak up u racists

Vgfian · 08-03-2009, 01:02 PM

I'll just quote SML...

Quote:

The way I've always seen it is that the media is aware of how people tend to make assumptions and create certain perceptions of people, so they somewhat intentionally perpetuate stereotypes.

heh · 08-03-2009, 07:02 PM

agree w/ sml.

also andre the police were 100% wrong in the gates situation and it was influenced racism, the police report makes him look like a some old cartoon style racial cariature as opposed to a reasonable harvard professor in order to justify the arrest.

Robotazy · 08-03-2009, 07:10 PM

I hate racism if only because the only obvious racists are the ones who call everyone else racist.

I'm not saying the majority can't be racist, but don't automatically assume a Judge is going to be biased because he's white

Also, I stand for the First Amendment, as long as the person using the First Amendment isn't being a complete ass.

***CaptHayfever*** · 08-04-2009, 12:19 AM

All I know is they won't show Bosko cartoons anymore, & I don't understand why.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

Kargath · 08-04-2009, 07:44 AM

The Gates guy cried black. He was breaking into a house (his own house, yes, but how was the passer-by to know that) and was immediately aggressive towards the police officer, immediately calling it racism.

***Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds*** · 08-04-2009, 08:36 AM

I always thought it was more racist to avoid making jokes about someone if they were not white (ie, stop airing the old cartoons because they poked fun at different races- god knows I never thought all Mexicans acted like Speedy Gonzales, and I would just declare that anyone who did was a totally freaking moron).

So, yes, I think it's completely in the viewer's perception.

***Cosmonautical*** · 08-04-2009, 08:54 AM

Yeah, that's a good part of what I'm saying. Even if it inadvertently helps perpetuate stereotypes, couldn't many of the cartoons and other media be seen as parodies of stereotypes? People use racism ironically in humor, to show how unrealistic it is. Viewers' understanding falls short of the original motive, and just leads to the assumption it's making fun of the culture without anything specifically indicating so.

The thing about Bosko, Capt, is how little he resembles an actual person. If he more strongly resembled a white person than a black person, or possibly another majority elsewhere, he would suddenly just be another silly character. It's a stronger prejudice, IMO, to expect viewers to connect the cartoon with a stereotype and think "yes, all people of this group act this way." I don't tend to look at someone and think their actions are related to their skintone or their place of birth, I assume they have reasons and make decisions like I do.

**Deku Trii** · 08-04-2009, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds

I always thought it was more racist to avoid making jokes about someone if they were not white (ie, stop airing the old cartoons because they poked fun at different races- god knows I never thought all Mexicans acted like Speedy Gonzales, and I would just declare that anyone who did was a totally freaking moron).

So, yes, I think it's completely in the viewer's perception.

Someone once told me it was actually the way Speedy's mouse friends were depicted that people found questionable. Still wasn't anything I ever interpreted as an indictment on an entire race, though.

heh · 08-04-2009, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kargath

The Gates guy cried black. He was breaking into a house (his own house, yes, but how was the passer-by to know that) and was immediately aggressive towards the police officer, immediately calling it racism.

cool story bro, im talking about the gates guy that identified himself, entered his house, had a cop harass him at his doorstep, ask the cop his badge number and identification (the cop must comply or get the **** out when asked this fyi), get harassed some more and then immdiatly get arrested when he went outside.

no, its not racism when you see a guy breaking into a house, but once he has identified himself you don't stand outside and wait for your chance to arrest him. the racism comes from the ridiculous police report which i might post if i stop being a lazy retard.

***Cosmonautical*** · 08-04-2009, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deku Trii

Someone once told me it was actually the way Speedy's mouse friends were depicted that people found questionable. Still wasn't anything I ever interpreted as an indictment on an entire race, though.

Speedy and his friends might fall under an inaccurate stereotype, but more importantly than that they are archetypes. Should we go banning characters and film media based on the assumption that the audience will connect an animated product to reality, and assume it accurately documents a society? That sounds presumptuous and racially charged, to me. I doubt these cartoons were ever made to be mean-spirited.

***Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds*** · 08-04-2009, 09:13 AM

Not least for the fact that they are cartoon mice, of all things. Naturally that would make some indications against humans from the same country, right. Yeah.

One of the videos that spurred this topic was someone making remark about the song from Aladdin: "where they cut off your ears if they don't like your face, it's barbaric, but hey, it's home". They were yelling and carrying on about how badly that depicts "the Arabs". Um, yes. The Middle East. Have you no understanding of the themes from the original book that inspired the Disney movie/s? I think more than anything, people are willfully ignorant and they are the ones that see particular differences in people just because they happen to be born somewhere, or have a slightly different genetic make up.

**Deku Trii** · 08-04-2009, 09:47 AM

Huh. Didn't even know that was the original first verse. I remember having the solo part in the "Arabian Nights" section of a Disney song medley thing we did in choir, and I sang the PC line.

Bomby · 08-04-2009, 10:54 AM

I don't really think it's a black and white issue, no pun intended. There are sometimes where it's definitely a big stretch by a viewer who sees racism in something, and other times where it's pretty obvious where the creator stands. Sometimes it meets halfway in the middle.

Even in the case of a viewer stretching to see racism in something where it might not already be, that doesn't automatically make that person a "racist" either. Perhaps they're so concerned about racism that they tend to see it where it might not be.

**Valigarmander** · 08-04-2009, 03:13 PM

I loved Speedy Gonzales as a kid. He was my favorite Looney Toon, probably because I always watched him with my best friend and his family (who were Mexican).

Quote:

Originally Posted by a dirty LIEberal

the racism comes from the ridiculous police report which i might post if i stop being a lazy retard.

Please post with source.

***Cosmonautical*** · 08-05-2009, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bomby

I don't really think it's a black and white issue, no pun intended. There are sometimes where it's definitely a big stretch by a viewer who sees racism in something, and other times where it's pretty obvious where the creator stands. Sometimes it meets halfway in the middle.

Even in the case of a viewer stretching to see racism in something where it might not already be, that doesn't automatically make that person a "racist" either. Perhaps they're so concerned about racism that they tend to see it where it might not be.

Except it might not be so obvious that it's the creator's intent. You yourself are taking it as insinuation, strangely enough, when you observe that it is so.

The ramifications of that sort of racism are more subtle. It causes us to favor a race for employment, or legal defense, but more importantly is accuses someone of being racist by employing a racist understanding. Playing favorites is still a prejudice, whether or not it's done to combat negative prejudices.

Bomby · 08-05-2009, 01:00 AM

Give the human mind a little credit. I'm pretty sure that I know what the intent of the Looney Toons cartoon Tokio Jokio was. If you're going to say that people who cry "racism!" at Tokio Jokio are only offended because they are racist themselves, it's going to be a big stretch for me to take you seriously. (Before someone else says it first: I do realize that given the time period, the Japanese government [but definitely not all Japanese people] were doing some of the most cruel and inhumane things to the Chinese and Koreans.)

So let's say that the creator of Tokio Jokio didn't hate the Japanese, and had different reasons for portraying them as inept. I still don't think that someone who finds a cartoon in which a 100% Japanese cast is portrayed in such a manner racist automatically has a hidden racist agenda within his or herself. This is what I mean when I say that it feels like you're making it a black and white issue.

On the other hand, if you're going to say that the Taco Bell dog commercials are racist because they have a dog who may fit some of the commonly perpetuated stereotypes of Mexicans, or who thinks that any Asian martial arts film makes it seem like all Asian people know martial arts, you're probably hypersensitive and need to stop taking everything so seriously. I'm reminded of Bill Cosby thinking that all black people on TV shows should be doctors and lawyers, which is underestimating the capability of the audience to not pigeon-hold people of whatever demographic into small groups.

I'm not saying that it's never the viewer's racism. Sometimes people shout "racism" much too quickly, but there are times when a viewer claiming that something in the media is racist is justified.

Of course, this should also apply to homophobia, misogyny, misandry, nationalism, xenophobia, etc. Honestly, if you really wanted to, you could argue that anyone familiar with the concept of racism must have some form of racism deep seated within his or her psyche, but to what avail? Either way, both sides of the argument are just pointing fingers at each other and yelling, "No, YOU'RE the one that's racist" ad nauseam.

***Cosmonautical*** · 08-05-2009, 07:53 AM

Well, Tokio Jokio was made as a propaganda film, so I think that's at least a dead giveaway of racial intent. What I'm really addressing here are things like Aladdin, or for instance Jar Jar Binks, a character that people decided resembled a racial stereotype despite having no connection to human culture and being another species, altogether.

I agree with SML when he says that the words "racist" and "racism" are overused, because there is a large difference between something like a subliminally misinforming entertainment medium, and a guy who thinks all persons of a race are murdering thieves and liars, but the words pertain to both.

08-04-2009, 08:54 AM	#10
*Cosmonautical* Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I rub my tilde all over your asterisk Gender: Posts: 28,100 Thanks: 2,151 Thanked 5,338 Times in 2,433 Posts	Yeah, that's a good part of what I'm saying. Even if it inadvertently helps perpetuate stereotypes, couldn't many of the cartoons and other media be seen as parodies of stereotypes? People use racism ironically in humor, to show how unrealistic it is. Viewers' understanding falls short of the original motive, and just leads to the assumption it's making fun of the culture without anything specifically indicating so. The thing about Bosko, Capt, is how little he resembles an actual person. If he more strongly resembled a white person than a black person, or possibly another majority elsewhere, he would suddenly just be another silly character. It's a stronger prejudice, IMO, to expect viewers to connect the cartoon with a stereotype and think "yes, all people of this group act this way." I don't tend to look at someone and think their actions are related to their skintone or their place of birth, I assume they have reasons and make decisions like I do. Last edited by Cosmonautical; 08-04-2009 at 09:03 AM.

08-05-2009, 01:00 AM	#19
Bomby You just freaking blew Joe Biden's mind! Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: WHAT?house Gender: Posts: 19,491 Thanks: 513 Thanked 1,449 Times in 849 Posts Blog Entries: 5	Give the human mind a little credit. I'm pretty sure that I know what the intent of the Looney Toons cartoon Tokio Jokio was. If you're going to say that people who cry "racism!" at Tokio Jokio are only offended because they are racist themselves, it's going to be a big stretch for me to take you seriously. (Before someone else says it first: I do realize that given the time period, the Japanese government [but definitely not all Japanese people] were doing some of the most cruel and inhumane things to the Chinese and Koreans.) So let's say that the creator of Tokio Jokio didn't hate the Japanese, and had different reasons for portraying them as inept. I still don't think that someone who finds a cartoon in which a 100% Japanese cast is portrayed in such a manner racist automatically has a hidden racist agenda within his or herself. This is what I mean when I say that it feels like you're making it a black and white issue. On the other hand, if you're going to say that the Taco Bell dog commercials are racist because they have a dog who may fit some of the commonly perpetuated stereotypes of Mexicans, or who thinks that any Asian martial arts film makes it seem like all Asian people know martial arts, you're probably hypersensitive and need to stop taking everything so seriously. I'm reminded of Bill Cosby thinking that all black people on TV shows should be doctors and lawyers, which is underestimating the capability of the audience to not pigeon-hold people of whatever demographic into small groups. I'm not saying that it's never the viewer's racism. Sometimes people shout "racism" much too quickly, but there are times when a viewer claiming that something in the media is racist is justified. Of course, this should also apply to homophobia, misogyny, misandry, nationalism, xenophobia, etc. Honestly, if you really wanted to, you could argue that anyone familiar with the concept of racism must have some form of racism deep seated within his or her psyche, but to what avail? Either way, both sides of the argument are just pointing fingers at each other and yelling, "No, YOU'RE the one that's racist" ad nauseam. Last edited by Bomby; 08-05-2009 at 02:46 AM.

08-03-2009, 11:38 AM	#2
Eagle Eye Diddy bops Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Birmingham, AL Gender: Posts: 15,014 Thanks: 1,616 Thanked 1,084 Times in 597 Posts	95% of any stereotype you can think of has some kind of truth to it. However, that truth is not limited to that category. America still has a racist mind set, we may have advanced in what we allow each other to do, but in the end, we still have that mind set. Biggest example is Dr. Gates, the black Harvard professor who was arrested by a white cop blahblahblahblahblah. Anyone with a reasonable mind could see that BOTH men were in the wrong, and that it should have never escalated to the point of arrest in the first place. However, just because it was white cop/black man, racism was immediately pointed out. My point is, racism exists, to what extent? Not sure. Some people are still racist, some people have biases influenced by environment that can be seen as racist but really aren't, and some people could give a damn whether you're white, black, Asian, Hispanic, or Middle Eastern, they still hate you regardless. So IMO, I don't think it's media influenced, I think we do it to ourselves with our over paranoia.

08-03-2009, 12:39 PM	#3
Swordmaster Link Super Bodyguard & King of the Arcade Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Wherever you want me to be Gender: Posts: 32,132 Thanks: 253 Thanked 951 Times in 640 Posts Blog Entries: 2	The way I've always seen it is that the media is aware of how people tend to make assumptions and create certain perceptions of people, so they somewhat intentionally perpetuate stereotypes. Obviously, the real world is much more subtle and not as black and white (in the figurative sense), but the fact of the matter is that it's easier for people to "relate" to things like TV shows, cartoons, etc. when the lowest common denominator is shown. Speaking of America in particular, things like this become touchy because IMO, we're very individualistic (which isn't necessarily a bad thing entirely)...going along with what Andre was saying, people generally don't like it when others attempt to pidgeon-hole them using a stereotype, because it takes away from their uniqueness as a person. For example, if someone were to say "You WOULD be good at basketball, cuz ur black lol". I think I mentioned this in another topic though, that given all of this I feel that the word "racist" is kind of over-used in a sense, because most stereotypes that are propogated by the media (and subsequently, the people who gobble them up) are amoral in nature, and aren't really value judgements. For example, I would just laugh and think you were an idiot if you were to assume that I love watermelons, but I would be legitimately offended if you were to assume that I stole something from you. lawl the only 2 replies are from black ppl speak up u racists

08-03-2009, 07:02 PM	#5
heh Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: lo-ca-tion; Noun- 1. a place or situation occupied: That house is in a fine location Gender: Posts: 9,849 Thanks: 710 Thanked 955 Times in 628 Posts	agree w/ sml. also andre the police were 100% wrong in the gates situation and it was influenced racism, the police report makes him look like a some old cartoon style racial cariature as opposed to a reasonable harvard professor in order to justify the arrest.

08-03-2009, 07:10 PM	#6
Robotazy PRESS ANY KEY TO PANIC! Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: A Tiny Shed Gender: Posts: 16,483 Thanks: 529 Thanked 1,254 Times in 897 Posts Blog Entries: 46	I hate racism if only because the only obvious racists are the ones who call everyone else racist. I'm not saying the majority can't be racist, but don't automatically assume a Judge is going to be biased because he's white Also, I stand for the First Amendment, as long as the person using the First Amendment isn't being a complete ass.

08-04-2009, 12:19 AM	#7
*CaptHayfever* Smash SuperMod Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: (n) - the place where I am Gender: Posts: 27,661 Thanks: 1,991 Thanked 2,486 Times in 1,513 Posts	All I know is they won't show Bosko cartoons anymore, & I don't understand why. And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

08-04-2009, 07:44 AM	#8
Kargath et in Arcadia ego Join Date: Jul 2001 Gender: Posts: 8,334 Thanks: 1,226 Thanked 780 Times in 488 Posts	The Gates guy cried black. He was breaking into a house (his own house, yes, but how was the passer-by to know that) and was immediately aggressive towards the police officer, immediately calling it racism.

08-04-2009, 08:36 AM	#9
*Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds* Admin "mine.. not yours. NO. MINE." Epic Ladynerd Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Forteresse de Valois Gender: Posts: 28,504 Thanks: 1,658 Thanked 1,820 Times in 1,042 Posts	I always thought it was more racist to avoid making jokes about someone if they were not white (ie, stop airing the old cartoons because they poked fun at different races- god knows I never thought all Mexicans acted like Speedy Gonzales, and I would just declare that anyone who did was a totally freaking moron). So, yes, I think it's completely in the viewer's perception.

08-04-2009, 09:13 AM	#14
*Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds* Admin "mine.. not yours. NO. MINE." Epic Ladynerd Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Forteresse de Valois Gender: Posts: 28,504 Thanks: 1,658 Thanked 1,820 Times in 1,042 Posts	Not least for the fact that they are cartoon mice, of all things. Naturally that would make some indications against humans from the same country, right. Yeah. One of the videos that spurred this topic was someone making remark about the song from Aladdin: "where they cut off your ears if they don't like your face, it's barbaric, but hey, it's home". They were yelling and carrying on about how badly that depicts "the Arabs". Um, yes. The Middle East. Have you no understanding of the themes from the original book that inspired the Disney movie/s? I think more than anything, people are willfully ignorant and they are the ones that see particular differences in people just because they happen to be born somewhere, or have a slightly different genetic make up.

08-04-2009, 09:47 AM	#15
Deku Trii PP&R Mod Current Events Mod Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Texas Gender: Posts: 9,031 Thanks: 521 Thanked 1,099 Times in 583 Posts	Huh. Didn't even know that was the original first verse. I remember having the solo part in the "Arabian Nights" section of a Disney song medley thing we did in choir, and I sang the PC line.

08-04-2009, 10:54 AM	#16
Bomby You just freaking blew Joe Biden's mind! Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: WHAT?house Gender: Posts: 19,491 Thanks: 513 Thanked 1,449 Times in 849 Posts Blog Entries: 5	I don't really think it's a black and white issue, no pun intended. There are sometimes where it's definitely a big stretch by a viewer who sees racism in something, and other times where it's pretty obvious where the creator stands. Sometimes it meets halfway in the middle. Even in the case of a viewer stretching to see racism in something where it might not already be, that doesn't automatically make that person a "racist" either. Perhaps they're so concerned about racism that they tend to see it where it might not be.

08-05-2009, 07:53 AM	#20
*Cosmonautical* Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I rub my tilde all over your asterisk Gender: Posts: 28,100 Thanks: 2,151 Thanked 5,338 Times in 2,433 Posts	Well, Tokio Jokio was made as a propaganda film, so I think that's at least a dead giveaway of racial intent. What I'm really addressing here are things like Aladdin, or for instance Jar Jar Binks, a character that people decided resembled a racial stereotype despite having no connection to human culture and being another species, altogether. I agree with SML when he says that the words "racist" and "racism" are overused, because there is a large difference between something like a subliminally misinforming entertainment medium, and a guy who thinks all persons of a race are murdering thieves and liars, but the words pertain to both.