If God hates homosexuals like you say, Fred Phelps...

Bomby · 10-02-2009, 12:56 PM

Why can't God be wrong? I feel like "Because God says so" is not a legitimate excuse for any type of irrational hatred.

(the purpose of this topic is the notion that God can be wrong, not the debate on homosexuality)

**Loot** · 10-02-2009, 01:23 PM

I always applauded the idea that God is not, in fact, perfect. Kinda says so in Genesis since he had regret for creating mankind, and wanted to never flood the world again.

That's just my interpretation, though. Who cares, since I'm a Pu-... Yeah.

**Crazyswordsman** · 10-02-2009, 02:53 PM

^I don't think God has emotions; it doesn't even have a soul. After all, it's not a living creature but an essence that surrounds us.

Fred Phelps came to NYC and disrupted Yom Kippur services saying that God hates Jews and that we aren't atoning for the supposed "sin" of not accepting Jesus as our messiah. Normally I would just ignore something like this. But this is Yom Kippur, the holiest, most serious day of the year. -CSM

***CaptHayfever*** · 10-02-2009, 03:37 PM

Existence, in all its form and splendor, functions solely on one principle - God is infallible. [/Alan Rickman]

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

**Deku Trii** · 10-02-2009, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazyswordsman

^I don't think God has emotions; it doesn't even have a soul. After all, it's not a living creature but an essence that surrounds us.

I think you're thinking of the Force.

**Crazyswordsman** · 10-02-2009, 06:25 PM

^Yeah, I think God operates that way. -CSM

***Cosmonautical*** · 10-04-2009, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptHayfever

Existence, in all its form and splendor, functions solely on one principle - God is infallible. [/Alan Rickman]

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

What's the deal with the middle-man, anyway? I mean, I understand that people like to personify forces of nature and even reality itself with concepts like gods and fate and luck. It seems petty, though. If God is existence, and God simply is, then why can't existence simply be as well? It really doesn't answer the question of how, because with a concept of God there is no beginning, anyway.

And since God has relinquished control in favor of allowing us choices, why simply the judgments for failure? What's the purpose in creating something your omnipotence should surely have known would lead to dissatisfaction?

And the idea of the devil? I was pretty certain God was omnipotent here, and that was the root of the persistence of existence, which for whatever reason can't simply be as God does. Besides, aren't Angels devoid of free will? What makes Lucifer exempt? The idea that you don't even get to find out anything concrete about how afterlife is dealt until you're dead isn't just ineffectual - it's downright dishonest. People are driven in many ways by the situations into which they're placed, which an omnipotent God must surely perceive in all ways.

But the whole thing stinks of being contrived by a limited human imagination, anyway. I don't necessarily disagree with a culmination of life being driven in some way by an undetectable force, because how could I detect it? But how could I possibly agree with something that sounds so blatantly like a coverall for unexplained phenomenon as well as the human need to organize patterns and give things purpose?

What purpose is there for anything, aside from being another of many pretty concepts? What is the purpose of having a purpose? What is the purpose of the purpose of the purpose?

Bomby · 10-04-2009, 03:30 PM

The older I get, the more confident I become that we were not created by a conscious being, at least not in the way that religion defines it. Every concept, every human creation stems from one source - we are on this planet, and we have no idea how we got here or why we are here. Religion, science, philosophy, struggle, economics - these all come from trying to adjust ourselves to the unknown and potentially unknowable.

The black and white morality and the punishment of heaven and hell in Abrahamic religions seems very much contrived by humans who wanted to help society function. Although I disagree with many of its teachings, this is one thing I like about Confucianism: it is a set of moral guidelines in which it lets its followers know that its reward is a functioning society here on earth, not going to a better afterlife. (And yes, Confucianism is a religion. Maybe not by narrow western definitions of the word, but it is considered such in the east.) It doesn't take an omnipotent force to realize that a functioning society allows for greater success in maintaining human life. As for why we desire to maintain life: uncertainty of the nature of death is scary.

I also find it funny when people say that something is unexplainable, therefore it is an act of God... because saying something is an act of God is an explanation.

heh · 10-04-2009, 03:37 PM

sorry guys god isn't an intelligent individual its an unthinking infinite that includes everything.

It doesn't have political opinions

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deku Trii

I think you're thinking of the Force.

get out

**Deku Trii** · 10-04-2009, 07:35 PM

^I do what I want.

***CaptHayfever*** · 10-04-2009, 09:18 PM

^^I think you're thinking of Azazoth.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

Rainbow Dash · 10-04-2009, 09:38 PM

God isn't wrong because God cannot lie, cannot do evil. He is a perfect being.

unfortunately this leads into a debate about which God we are speaking of

Bomby · 10-04-2009, 10:02 PM

God cannot lie says who? God. God cannot do evil says who? God. God is a perfect being says who? God.

If I said "I cannot lie, I can do no evil, I am a perfect being" would you believe me?

heh · 10-04-2009, 10:25 PM

god doesn't lie because he never says anything

***Cosmonautical*** · 10-05-2009, 07:44 AM

I more or less just think God is a term for the cumulation of existence - as a whole of all things at once, all forces, all abstract concepts, God can be everything and nothing. That means total omnipotence and simultaneous weakness.

After thinking for a good while about the concepts of gods in general, I started to wonder about what makes a religion seem legitimate to someone? I think the answer to that is understanding and familiarity. For instance: most Christians, etc, seem to think the idea of the gods of Olympus to be silly or obviously untrue. However, they also lack appreciation for the concept: The gods are actually a single concept, they form the pantheon. The many gods could just as easily represent the many facets of existence, whereas the Christian God is just a single appreciation for existence as a whole. The Grecian gods therefore personify individual elements of nature that make up the whole of the Christian God: they are the same concept. If God is omniscient and omnipotent, then God must be one and calm and true to God's ownself, but also capable of being in constant internal conflict. Seperating the Grecian gods into individual personas better represents this facet of the omnipotence of God, because God is both right and wrong infinitely. God can have several opinions, all in conflict with one another, and all correct, when God is considered in facets that personify reality.

***Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds*** · 10-05-2009, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puppy Kicking Atheist

Kinda says so in Genesis since he had regret for creating mankind, and wanted to never flood the world again.

Regret doesn't make something wrong.

If your leg went gangrenous and you had to have it amputated to save your life, you, and the doctors who treat you, may regret that you lost your leg, but it was still right to remove it in the overall scheme of "I want to live through this". *shrug*

Also, wanting to never have to do something again doesn't indicate that it was wrong in the first place. You can lament that it was a necessary action, while still having needed to do it. Like when my dog got euthanised. It was horrible, but it was for the best. I'm pretty afraid that I will have to make that choice again some day, and I genuinely pray that my animals all die peacefully and naturally in their sleep, rather than need to be euthanised to prevent suffering.

As for the original question, what's "wrong" anyway, beside an artificial notion we've all created? One person may think it's wrong to do one thing, while another person finds it perfectly acceptable and reasonable. Ultimately, "wrong" is just a preference. We've created it from the desires we have; not to feel pain, not to feel need. Therefore, we think it's wrong to hurt others, or take their things. But when one has much, and others have little? Some people might be Robin Hood. Then it's okay to take things, because that guy had too much already, and those people needed it.

So, more or less, God can't be wrong, because wrong doesn't exist outside of our moral boundries. It just is.

***CaptHayfever*** · 10-05-2009, 09:15 AM

^^I totally appreciate the concept of the Olympian gods. The thing that always gets to me about them, though, is how petty they were; that's really a bad character trait for an immortal, superpowered being, especially when there are more than one of such beings, each with different motives & goals.
In contrast, the Norse gods were wiser (in general), but essentially no more than just regular dudes who ate special food to stay alive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bomby

God cannot lie says who? God. God cannot do evil says who? God. God is a perfect being says who? God.

If I said "I cannot lie, I can do no evil, I am a perfect being" would you believe me?

If you'd said it before we ever saw you lying or being imperfect, maybe.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

Bomby · 10-05-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds

So, more or less, God can't be wrong, because wrong doesn't exist outside of our moral boundries. It just is.

My whole point was whether or not god could be morally (or logically) wrong.

Rainbow Dash · 10-05-2009, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bomby

God cannot lie says who? God. God cannot do evil says who? God. God is a perfect being says who? God.

If I said "I cannot lie, I can do no evil, I am a perfect being" would you believe me?

would a lying god tell us to do right? would an evil god let us exist? would an imperfect god have let nothing be bad about how the universe works?

Bomby · 10-05-2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chunky Kong12345

would a lying god tell us to do right? would an evil god let us exist? would an imperfect god have let nothing be bad about how the universe works?

Would a truthful god claim to be perfect?
Would an evil god love to torture us?
Would a perfect god have such a huge ego and demand that all of humanity stroke it?

10-02-2009, 12:56 PM	#1
Bomby You just freaking blew Joe Biden's mind! Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: WHAT?house Gender: Posts: 19,491 Thanks: 513 Thanked 1,449 Times in 849 Posts Blog Entries: 5	If God hates homosexuals like you say, Fred Phelps... Why can't God be wrong? I feel like "Because God says so" is not a legitimate excuse for any type of irrational hatred. (the purpose of this topic is the notion that God can be wrong, not the debate on homosexuality) Last edited by Bomby; 10-02-2009 at 01:11 PM.

10-02-2009, 01:23 PM	#2
Loot Apparently I'm a mod? Join Date: May 2001 Location: LEGITIMATE BUSINESS Gender: Posts: 13,208 Thanks: 236 Thanked 1,237 Times in 659 Posts	I always applauded the idea that God is not, in fact, perfect. Kinda says so in Genesis since he had regret for creating mankind, and wanted to never flood the world again. That's just my interpretation, though. Who cares, since I'm a Pu-... Yeah.

10-02-2009, 02:53 PM	#3
Crazyswordsman This key doesn't work. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Booyaville (yeah!) Gender: Posts: 10,791 Thanks: 1,019 Thanked 686 Times in 467 Posts	^I don't think God has emotions; it doesn't even have a soul. After all, it's not a living creature but an essence that surrounds us. Fred Phelps came to NYC and disrupted Yom Kippur services saying that God hates Jews and that we aren't atoning for the supposed "sin" of not accepting Jesus as our messiah. Normally I would just ignore something like this. But this is Yom Kippur, the holiest, most serious day of the year. -CSM

10-02-2009, 03:37 PM	#4
*CaptHayfever* Smash SuperMod Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: (n) - the place where I am Gender: Posts: 27,661 Thanks: 1,991 Thanked 2,486 Times in 1,513 Posts	Existence, in all its form and splendor, functions solely on one principle - God is infallible. [/Alan Rickman] And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

10-02-2009, 06:25 PM	#6
Crazyswordsman This key doesn't work. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Booyaville (yeah!) Gender: Posts: 10,791 Thanks: 1,019 Thanked 686 Times in 467 Posts	^Yeah, I think God operates that way. -CSM

10-04-2009, 03:30 PM	#8
Bomby You just freaking blew Joe Biden's mind! Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: WHAT?house Gender: Posts: 19,491 Thanks: 513 Thanked 1,449 Times in 849 Posts Blog Entries: 5	The older I get, the more confident I become that we were not created by a conscious being, at least not in the way that religion defines it. Every concept, every human creation stems from one source - we are on this planet, and we have no idea how we got here or why we are here. Religion, science, philosophy, struggle, economics - these all come from trying to adjust ourselves to the unknown and potentially unknowable. The black and white morality and the punishment of heaven and hell in Abrahamic religions seems very much contrived by humans who wanted to help society function. Although I disagree with many of its teachings, this is one thing I like about Confucianism: it is a set of moral guidelines in which it lets its followers know that its reward is a functioning society here on earth, not going to a better afterlife. (And yes, Confucianism is a religion. Maybe not by narrow western definitions of the word, but it is considered such in the east.) It doesn't take an omnipotent force to realize that a functioning society allows for greater success in maintaining human life. As for why we desire to maintain life: uncertainty of the nature of death is scary. I also find it funny when people say that something is unexplainable, therefore it is an act of God... because saying something is an act of God is an explanation.

10-04-2009, 07:35 PM	#10
Deku Trii PP&R Mod Current Events Mod Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Texas Gender: Posts: 9,031 Thanks: 521 Thanked 1,099 Times in 583 Posts	^I do what I want.

10-04-2009, 09:18 PM	#11
*CaptHayfever* Smash SuperMod Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: (n) - the place where I am Gender: Posts: 27,661 Thanks: 1,991 Thanked 2,486 Times in 1,513 Posts	^^I think you're thinking of Azazoth. And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

10-04-2009, 09:38 PM	#12
Rainbow Dash been dreamin', i've been waitin' Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: a bomb-ass cloud house bachelorette pad Gender: Posts: 24,401 Thanks: 173 Thanked 1,179 Times in 716 Posts	God isn't wrong because God cannot lie, cannot do evil. He is a perfect being. unfortunately this leads into a debate about which God we are speaking of

10-04-2009, 10:02 PM	#13
Bomby You just freaking blew Joe Biden's mind! Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: WHAT?house Gender: Posts: 19,491 Thanks: 513 Thanked 1,449 Times in 849 Posts Blog Entries: 5	God cannot lie says who? God. God cannot do evil says who? God. God is a perfect being says who? God. If I said "I cannot lie, I can do no evil, I am a perfect being" would you believe me?

10-04-2009, 10:25 PM	#14
heh Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: lo-ca-tion; Noun- 1. a place or situation occupied: That house is in a fine location Gender: Posts: 9,849 Thanks: 710 Thanked 955 Times in 628 Posts	god doesn't lie because he never says anything

10-05-2009, 07:44 AM	#15
*Cosmonautical* Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I rub my tilde all over your asterisk Gender: Posts: 28,100 Thanks: 2,151 Thanked 5,338 Times in 2,433 Posts	I more or less just think God is a term for the cumulation of existence - as a whole of all things at once, all forces, all abstract concepts, God can be everything and nothing. That means total omnipotence and simultaneous weakness. After thinking for a good while about the concepts of gods in general, I started to wonder about what makes a religion seem legitimate to someone? I think the answer to that is understanding and familiarity. For instance: most Christians, etc, seem to think the idea of the gods of Olympus to be silly or obviously untrue. However, they also lack appreciation for the concept: The gods are actually a single concept, they form the pantheon. The many gods could just as easily represent the many facets of existence, whereas the Christian God is just a single appreciation for existence as a whole. The Grecian gods therefore personify individual elements of nature that make up the whole of the Christian God: they are the same concept. If God is omniscient and omnipotent, then God must be one and calm and true to God's ownself, but also capable of being in constant internal conflict. Seperating the Grecian gods into individual personas better represents this facet of the omnipotence of God, because God is both right and wrong infinitely. God can have several opinions, all in conflict with one another, and all correct, when God is considered in facets that personify reality.