An absurdist rumination...

Bomby · 12-08-2009, 10:36 AM

Perhaps this is from the overcomplication of issues in human life, or the lack of any obvious reasoning given to our existence. But I hear the word so much that I've really lost a way to define it. Generally speaking, I hear it in terms of art and life, in general. People use it as if its the most precious aspect of both, but the term has become nothing more than hermeneutic jargon to me.

What I want to know, is what this word "meaning" even means. What is this that you are searching for?

Kil'jaeden · 12-09-2009, 12:36 AM

I think that, since we humans are goal oriented, that we think of meaning as the answer to the question "to what end?".

Metal Man · 12-09-2009, 02:03 AM

Why, I am searching for insanity. That is the meaning of life.

AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!

PK FIRE! · 12-09-2009, 02:17 AM

I rather like Kil'jaeden's take on the subject.

However on a more lighthearted note, I like 42 as the answer myself but to each thier own.

- You stupid dog.

***Cosmonautical*** · 12-09-2009, 06:58 AM

As humans, our minds search for patterns to identify and understand in all things. We determine and perform our actions to fulfill what we perceive as a need, and those needs are justified by an end desire. The meaning is that end desire, the cause to which we live. Some swear that life without meaning is awful. I tend to think it's just life, and deciding whether it's bad or good has no cause for any necessary reason. It's another symptom of human pathing, as well. In attempting to identify the origin of cause, one can say that if we are the result of a self-replicating facet of material existence, then our cause for needing cause is a self-preserving cycle.

We need to be if we are to be, and by being we are. Everything is setup to point to coincidence as the culprit, because even if there were a deity with motives that deity must obtain motive from something. So we simply came to be by coincidence of happening, because even if we came to be as a whim of a deity or to fulfill some need, that circumstance came to be of its own end.

We are the circumstance of things being aware of their being, succinctly put. Or, "I think therefore I am," if you have a taste for the colloquial.

***Ace Mercury*** · 12-09-2009, 08:23 AM

Is the OP questioning the meaning of one's life, or the meaning of the word "meaning" in general?

If it's the latter, I believe that 'meaning' implies some sort of conscious viewpoint on a particular subject. That is, things can exist without meaning, up until there is an observer which can impart meaning onto those things.

Bomby · 12-09-2009, 11:06 AM

These are very good answers. You see, sometimes I get so caught up, in the discussion of arts in particular, with hermeneutic people who are debating over whether or not a work of art has a "deeper meaning." It gets ridiculous sometimes how pretentious they sound.

Distancing myself from the situation, I guess the "meaning of life" would be better phrased as "why we exist" or "what is the purpose of our existence."

To which, I believe there is none.

Lurch1982 · 12-10-2009, 08:21 PM

Kil'jaeden · 12-11-2009, 04:56 AM

What is 6 times 9?

***Ace Mercury*** · 12-11-2009, 07:09 AM

That's... really getting old hat.

Bomby · 12-11-2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurch1982

42.

It appears that someone woke up, looked in the mirror, and thought to himself, "I want to be the most unoriginal person ever today."

Lurch1982 · 12-12-2009, 01:23 AM

Says the guy that posts the most generic philosophical question in history. Tool.

Metal Man · 12-12-2009, 01:42 AM

New definition: The meaning of life is to call one another tools and fight over the meaning of life.

***Cosmonautical*** · 12-12-2009, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bomby

Distancing myself from the situation, I guess the "meaning of life" would be better phrased as "why we exist" or "what is the purpose of our existence."

To which, I believe there is none.

Well, you could just as easily say that our only cause for existing is existence. That implies that we exist to exist. You can interpret that to be that our existence lacks meaning, but that would be incorrect. Meaning is an artifact of our consciousness. It's something that is made present by being, by awareness. Meaning itself could not be without comprehension. So, if you are looking for a motive for our awareness, you can say that motive is self-preservation. There is no need for self-preservation, but that does not negate its meaning.
You're essentially asking me to answer an infinite loop of the abstract. The only answer to the question is the ability to question. If you ask why should there be the ability to question, you are questioning the ability to question, and proving that it is a necessary process for rationale.

You're aware that there are cultures without a concept of nothing? That is because it is simply not something that can be, the nothing and the concept. We understand it in glimpses of the in-between, the absence of something that was. Nothing can only ever be an abstract, it cannot possibly exist so long as it is classifiable. So as long as we continue to be, meaninglessness is equally impossible.

You provide us with an origin, but that isn't really the origin of the question. The origin is in the unrest, and the unrest comes from thinking and feeling, and the thinking and feeling comes from being. I think what frustrates us is that meaning is absolutely under our control. Most people do not like this, it makes them uncomfortable to understand the limits of thought. It's not really a problem to cope with unless you make it one, though. You can just as easily revel in your power, if you don't choose to see it as an obstacle to living in satisfaction.

More than anything, I think what ultimately bothers us about this question of meaning is that the answer is always another question. We function in a way that requires our success. Look at the loop and see that it is your answer; the question of being is a loop because it is unbroken. As long as you are, you are. That is why I point to circumstance. The requirement for cause is infinite. Being is infinite, until it is not. Isn't the confusion that these absolutes brings about fantastic?

Your ire for your artistically-minded friends (for their lack of sight in this), likely stems from your realization that meaning is assignable and never singular. Art is nothing more than the human ability to attach meaning, usually to objects that would otherwise never be provided meaning outside of preference for meaning. You see them creating meaning as humans do, and think that the attachment of meaning is meaningless, yet the attachment of meaning is done to satisfy the human need for meaning. More than anything, they frustrate you because their being unaware of the cycle is paralleled in your own behavior, reflected; it provokes the question "Are my meanings meaningless?" The answer to that, as you should now be aware, is an endless circular logic that cannot be broken. Your meanings are to please you, but you are conscious of the need for meaning for your meanings. You are seeking one. The meaning for the meanings is more need for meaning. You can safely assume that it is the most fundamental root of the process of human thought, and understand that it means that you are human, and that you ARE, human.

Bomby · 12-12-2009, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bureau

Well, you could just as easily say that our only cause for existing is existence. That implies that we exist to exist. You can interpret that to be that our existence lacks meaning, but that would be incorrect. Meaning is an artifact of our consciousness. It's something that is made present by being, by awareness. Meaning itself could not be without comprehension. So, if you are looking for a motive for our awareness, you can say that motive is self-preservation. There is no need for self-preservation, but that does not negate its meaning.

Well, when I say that I believe that there isn't any "meaning of life," what I mean is that I don't believe in an all-encompassing divine purpose or reason for our existence. That doesn't negate personally assigned meanings or purposes, which make existing a hell of a lot easier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bureau

You provide us with an origin, but that isn't really the origin of the question. The origin is in the unrest, and the unrest comes from thinking and feeling, and the thinking and feeling comes from being. I think what frustrates us is that meaning is absolutely under our control. Most people do not like this, it makes them uncomfortable to understand the limits of thought.

Right. My hypothesis would be that the question comes from the fact that we were the first creatures to evolve far enough to be able to think about our existence and ask "Why?" I actually think that the question is the force behind all human ingenuity, in some way, shape or form. It's sparked by our curiosity of how everything there is works and how it came to be that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bureau

Your ire for your artistically-minded friends (for their lack of sight in this), likely stems from your realization that meaning is assignable and never singular. Art is nothing more than the human ability to attach meaning, usually to objects that would otherwise never be provided meaning outside of preference for meaning. You see them creating meaning as humans do, and think that the attachment of meaning is meaningless, yet the attachment of meaning is done to satisfy the human need for meaning.

Actually, it more stems from the fact that whether or not a singular work of art has a "deeper meaning" tells me nothing about art. Because meaning is so easily assignable, why should it matter in the evaluation of art? Is The Seventh Seal really a better film than Citizen Kane simply because its a religious allegory? Does providing evidence for Pulp Fiction being an "anal retentive" film enhance my appreciation for it in any way? No.

In fact, I don't even think that they know what the hell they mean when they say that a work of art is "deep" or "superficial."

Quote:

More than anything, they frustrate you because their being unaware of the cycle is paralleled in your own behavior, reflected; it provokes the question "Are my meanings meaningless?" The answer to that, as you should now be aware, is an endless circular logic that cannot be broken. Your meanings are to please you, but you are conscious of the need for meaning for your meanings. You are seeking one. The meaning for the meanings is more need for meaning. You can safely assume that it is the most fundamental root of the process of human thought, and understand that it means that you are human, and that you ARE, human.

This might be the best paragraph I've read all week. Thank you.
------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurch1982

Says the guy that posts the most generic philosophical question in history. Tool.

No, the most generic philosophical question in history would be "What is the meaning of life?" I'm rather asking in regards to both that question and the discussion of the "meaning" of a work of art, "What is the meaning of the word meaning?" Nice to see that you noticed a thematic parallel, though.

Besides, even if I was asking that question, it's a relevant question to human livelihood and discussing it can be rather interesting. It didn't become the most generic philosophical question for no reason at all, you know. Either way, I've already found my answer for my interpretation of what that question even means, and asking that question and expecting others to enlighten me on the subject would be... well... meaningless.

Lurch1982 · 12-12-2009, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bomby

No, the most generic philosophical question in history would be "What is the meaning of life?" I'm rather asking in regards to both that question and the discussion of the "meaning" of a work of art, "What is the meaning of the word meaning?" Nice to see that you noticed a thematic parallel, but try harder with your ad hominems next time. I know you can do better than that.

Besides, even if I was asking that question, it's a relevant question to human livelihood and discussing it can be rather interesting. It didn't become the most generic philosophical question for no reason at all, you know. Either way, I've already found my answer for my interpretation of what that question even means.

Its a simple extension to an ultimately generic and pointless philosophical exercise that people smarter than you or I have written countless volumes on over the last 3000 years and still haven't come anywhere remotely close to "finding an answer." There are far more interesting and not-generic attempts to look deep.

Bomby · 12-12-2009, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lurch1982

attempts to look deep.

Right. That must have been my intention in all this, especially considering that my inspiration for posting this was my frustration with people evaluating a work of art based on whether or not it had a "deeper meaning." But if you want this whole discussion to devolve into a series of personal attacks, I'm not above that at all. Should we give it a go?

Or do you just want me to apologize for mocking you for making an overused pop culture reference? I'm sorry, I was out of line and it was uncalled for. There. Happy now?

Either way, I smell a giant lock coming, and it's probably all for the best. This post will be deleted, and peace will once again be restored to the internet.

Lurch1982 · 12-12-2009, 01:38 PM

You posted a generic philosophical ramble on a message board that might have 4 members capable of actually understanding it. Logic leads one to believe you're either (A) trying to impress the other 2 dozen actives here by being "deep" or (B) posting something you know likely won't get a meaningful response in order to look deep. No question like that is going to be solved on a message board, nor is it going to get any sort of discussion on a board that has a handful of people that actually understand it and less than 50 active members overall.

"42" is played out, sure. It is also an extremely simple, short and ultimately effective way to kill a pointless philosophical masturbatory exercise, mainly because it brings up how trite, generic and cliched the initial post is.

Bomby · 12-12-2009, 02:44 PM

It's actually quite a simple question that was asked out of frustration with people who obsess over whether or not a work of art has a "deeper meaning." And I'm plenty satisfied with the answers I received.

I can't prove what my intentionality in posting this topic was, but I'm also not going to waste my time worrying that someone that I'll never meet in real life is going to expose me for the pretentious jerk I actually am in front of... even more people that I'll never meet in real life. Frankly, I'm more worried that having dignified your attacks by responding to them might cause you think that I actually care about your perception of me, which in all truth probably isn't too dissimilar to my perception of you.

Lurch1982 · 12-12-2009, 10:27 PM

Keep being generic, trite, and cliched.

12-08-2009, 10:36 AM	#1
Bomby You just freaking blew Joe Biden's mind! Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: WHAT?house Gender: Posts: 19,491 Thanks: 513 Thanked 1,449 Times in 849 Posts Blog Entries: 5	An absurdist rumination... Perhaps this is from the overcomplication of issues in human life, or the lack of any obvious reasoning given to our existence. But I hear the word so much that I've really lost a way to define it. Generally speaking, I hear it in terms of art and life, in general. People use it as if its the most precious aspect of both, but the term has become nothing more than hermeneutic jargon to me. What I want to know, is what this word "meaning" even means. What is this that you are searching for?

12-09-2009, 12:36 AM	#2
Kil'jaeden Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: in your mind Gender: Posts: 2,132 Thanks: 21 Thanked 146 Times in 99 Posts	I think that, since we humans are goal oriented, that we think of meaning as the answer to the question "to what end?".

12-09-2009, 02:03 AM	#3
Metal Man Fairy-Slaying Maniac Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: 1592 Miles Away From Here Gender: Posts: 18,062 Thanks: 148 Thanked 683 Times in 482 Posts	Why, I am searching for insanity. That is the meaning of life. AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!

12-09-2009, 02:17 AM	#4
PK FIRE! Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: On the run. Gender: Posts: 9,544 Thanks: 175 Thanked 150 Times in 120 Posts	I rather like Kil'jaeden's take on the subject. However on a more lighthearted note, I like 42 as the answer myself but to each thier own. - You stupid dog.

12-09-2009, 06:58 AM	#5
*Cosmonautical* Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I rub my tilde all over your asterisk Gender: Posts: 28,100 Thanks: 2,151 Thanked 5,338 Times in 2,433 Posts	As humans, our minds search for patterns to identify and understand in all things. We determine and perform our actions to fulfill what we perceive as a need, and those needs are justified by an end desire. The meaning is that end desire, the cause to which we live. Some swear that life without meaning is awful. I tend to think it's just life, and deciding whether it's bad or good has no cause for any necessary reason. It's another symptom of human pathing, as well. In attempting to identify the origin of cause, one can say that if we are the result of a self-replicating facet of material existence, then our cause for needing cause is a self-preserving cycle. We need to be if we are to be, and by being we are. Everything is setup to point to coincidence as the culprit, because even if there were a deity with motives that deity must obtain motive from something. So we simply came to be by coincidence of happening, because even if we came to be as a whim of a deity or to fulfill some need, that circumstance came to be of its own end. We are the circumstance of things being aware of their being, succinctly put. Or, "I think therefore I am," if you have a taste for the colloquial.

12-09-2009, 08:23 AM	#6
*Ace Mercury* Marshmallow Knight ☆ Supermod Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Southern Ontario Gender: Posts: 23,275 Thanks: 568 Thanked 3,297 Times in 1,582 Posts Blog Entries: 1	Is the OP questioning the meaning of one's life, or the meaning of the word "meaning" in general? If it's the latter, I believe that 'meaning' implies some sort of conscious viewpoint on a particular subject. That is, things can exist without meaning, up until there is an observer which can impart meaning onto those things.

12-09-2009, 11:06 AM	#7
Bomby You just freaking blew Joe Biden's mind! Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: WHAT?house Gender: Posts: 19,491 Thanks: 513 Thanked 1,449 Times in 849 Posts Blog Entries: 5	These are very good answers. You see, sometimes I get so caught up, in the discussion of arts in particular, with hermeneutic people who are debating over whether or not a work of art has a "deeper meaning." It gets ridiculous sometimes how pretentious they sound. Distancing myself from the situation, I guess the "meaning of life" would be better phrased as "why we exist" or "what is the purpose of our existence." To which, I believe there is none.

12-10-2009, 08:21 PM	#8
Lurch1982 Senior Member Join Date: May 2000 Location: DenCo Gender: Posts: 9,850 Thanks: 127 Thanked 365 Times in 192 Posts	42.

12-11-2009, 04:56 AM	#9
Kil'jaeden Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: in your mind Gender: Posts: 2,132 Thanks: 21 Thanked 146 Times in 99 Posts	What is 6 times 9?

12-11-2009, 07:09 AM	#10
*Ace Mercury* Marshmallow Knight ☆ Supermod Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Southern Ontario Gender: Posts: 23,275 Thanks: 568 Thanked 3,297 Times in 1,582 Posts Blog Entries: 1	That's... really getting old hat.

12-12-2009, 01:23 AM	#12
Lurch1982 Senior Member Join Date: May 2000 Location: DenCo Gender: Posts: 9,850 Thanks: 127 Thanked 365 Times in 192 Posts	Says the guy that posts the most generic philosophical question in history. Tool.

12-12-2009, 01:42 AM	#13
Metal Man Fairy-Slaying Maniac Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: 1592 Miles Away From Here Gender: Posts: 18,062 Thanks: 148 Thanked 683 Times in 482 Posts	New definition: The meaning of life is to call one another tools and fight over the meaning of life.

12-12-2009, 01:38 PM	#18
Lurch1982 Senior Member Join Date: May 2000 Location: DenCo Gender: Posts: 9,850 Thanks: 127 Thanked 365 Times in 192 Posts	You posted a generic philosophical ramble on a message board that might have 4 members capable of actually understanding it. Logic leads one to believe you're either (A) trying to impress the other 2 dozen actives here by being "deep" or (B) posting something you know likely won't get a meaningful response in order to look deep. No question like that is going to be solved on a message board, nor is it going to get any sort of discussion on a board that has a handful of people that actually understand it and less than 50 active members overall. "42" is played out, sure. It is also an extremely simple, short and ultimately effective way to kill a pointless philosophical masturbatory exercise, mainly because it brings up how trite, generic and cliched the initial post is.

12-12-2009, 02:44 PM	#19
Bomby You just freaking blew Joe Biden's mind! Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: WHAT?house Gender: Posts: 19,491 Thanks: 513 Thanked 1,449 Times in 849 Posts Blog Entries: 5	It's actually quite a simple question that was asked out of frustration with people who obsess over whether or not a work of art has a "deeper meaning." And I'm plenty satisfied with the answers I received. I can't prove what my intentionality in posting this topic was, but I'm also not going to waste my time worrying that someone that I'll never meet in real life is going to expose me for the pretentious jerk I actually am in front of... even more people that I'll never meet in real life. Frankly, I'm more worried that having dignified your attacks by responding to them might cause you think that I actually care about your perception of me, which in all truth probably isn't too dissimilar to my perception of you.

12-12-2009, 10:27 PM	#20
Lurch1982 Senior Member Join Date: May 2000 Location: DenCo Gender: Posts: 9,850 Thanks: 127 Thanked 365 Times in 192 Posts	Keep being generic, trite, and cliched.