Arizona's Immigration Bill

[John Galt]

Okay, I'm petty sure all you guys (and gals) have heard about Arizona's new immigration law, but just in case you haven't, I'll provide a link to it below...

Documents For Bill

So...what do y'all think about this controversial new law?

As a self-professed libertarian conservative, I have mixed feelings about this law. On one hand, I think it's going to be just another excuse for over-zealous police officers to harass people without reasonable suspicion. On the other hand, I think this bill is good in that it will motivate the bureaucrats in the US House and Senate to get of their collective fat asses and get our immigration situation fixed.

What do y'all think? Let's try to keep it civil.

[ZeldaGirl]

As a resident Arizonan, I'm steamed. You mentioned why, Sampson (you don't mind if I call you that, do you? ). Immigration reform is desperately needed; racial profiling is not. The bill is so ridiculous and unconstitutional, I'm amazed that Jan Brewer signed it into law (but then I remember she's an idiot, so I stop being that surprised...).

Reform is needed, but this is going to cause more problems than it should, and it's going to infringe upon the rights of those who actually are citizens or who are here legally as well. Not to mention the logic behind the bill is bunk.

[CaptHayfever]

In general, I think we should do whatever we can to curb illegal immigration, provided it in no way infringes on legal immigration or native citizens.
If the description you two are giving is accurate (I can't read that page; legal documents rape my eyes), then this bill violates my stance.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

[Valigarmander]

I don't have a particularly strong opinion on this, though maybe it's just because I haven't looked into the bill that much. Illegal immigration is something that needs action, though this bill seems vague enough on what "probable cause" that a person is here illegally is that it could just lead to racial profiling and yadda yadda. It doesn't sound like this bill is the right one, though if it spurs some action over in Washington, then at least that would be good.

My dad thinks this bill is the best thing in the world, though.

[Crazyswordsman]

Immigration is always a touchy issue. On one hand the law targets people who are just trying to make a better life for themselves and racial profiling could always be a concern especially when Joe Arpaio gets involved (he's been eerily silent so far). On the other hand, to take away a job from someone who is here legally and give it to someone who is here illegally is also a violation of human rights.

With immigration you really have to look at a case-by-case basis. I've divided immigrants into four categories:

Legal immigrant: is in the country legally.

Undocumented excused immigrant: is in the country illegally, but entered the country legally. Is trying to become a citizen or extend his or her stay, but his or her visa expired during the process or something happened that wasn't her fault during the process.

Undocumented unexcused immigrant: is in the country illegally, but entered the country legally. His or her visa expired and s/he made no attempts to extend the visa or become a citizen.

Illegal immigrant: entered the country illegally.

I bring this up because I have a friend who would be arrested under the new Arizona law. She came to the US legally from Peru, learned to speak English very fluently, and wants to become a citizen. She spent thousands of dollars at an immigration agency but they made a typo on her address when they sent her info to the government. Two years after she filed papers she was rejected and her visa expired due to the typo. She filed papers again but the company asked for more money. When this didn't get anywhere she filed with another company which, of course, asked her for more money. The person who originally filed her papers and made the typo is now being indicted for fraud in NY. In Arizona, she would be treated no differently than someone who just jumped the border and this is flagrantly wrong because she defies every stereotype the anti-immigration people make and she's illegally here because of something that's not her fault.

Although the law outlaws racial profiling from being used, and although I know there's gonna be training to stop the racial profiling, in the end it's up to the individual officers to enforce the law at their discretion, and it's no secret that there's a lot of racism among the police force, especially the Maricopa County Sheriff's office (and Joe Arpaio *has* palled around with Neo-Nazis before). Remember this is a state where Martin Luther King wasn't recognized until 1992, and one of the governors had no problem using a derogatory term to refer to African-Americans as recently as the late 80s.

Our borders are currently closed and insecure. They need to be open and secure. It needs to be easy to come into the country legally and hard to come in illegally. Right now it's just the opposite. -CSM

[Metal Man]

I think it's great, in that it'll help ensure Arizona becomes like California post Prop 187, which in turn should help get rid of this immigration bill as well.

Although I feel sorry for anyone who is not white and wealthy living in Arizona while this bill is in effect.

[Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds]

Originally Posted by Crazyswordsman

Our borders are currently closed and insecure. They need to be open and secure. It needs to be easy to come into the country legally and hard to come in illegally. Right now it's just the opposite. -CSM

This is so completely true. Immigration is already tough as hell when you're doing it legally.

As for the bill; police already check a person's immigration status if they are being investigated in relation to a crime (any crime, whether it be a traffic infringement or more serious matters). This law doesn't need to exist. Problem two is the fact that "illegal immigrant" isn't something you can see. Yes, there may be a high number of particular races in particular areas. That doesn't mean there aren't totally normal white illegals in there too.

[Crazyswordsman]

Originally Posted by Metal Man

I think it's great, in that it'll help ensure Arizona becomes like California post Prop 187, which in turn should help get rid of this immigration bill as well.

Although I feel sorry for anyone who is not white and wealthy living in Arizona while this bill is in effect.

Originally Posted by Cindy McCain

The only real way to get around Arizona is by private jet.

-CSM

[ZeldaGirl]

Originally Posted by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds

This is so completely true. Immigration is already tough as hell when you're doing it legally.

As for the bill; police already check a person's immigration status if they are being investigated in relation to a crime (any crime, whether it be a traffic infringement or more serious matters). This law doesn't need to exist. Problem two is the fact that "illegal immigrant" isn't something you can see. Yes, there may be a high number of particular races in particular areas. That doesn't mean there aren't totally normal white illegals in there too.

A good friend of mine is Canadian. Last she was at the border, she told the Border Patrol this - they said "close enough" and didn't bother checking anything. Basically, this law is just targeting individuals who are non-white.

[CuccoLady]

I wanted to shoot something when I first heard about this, to be honest. Talk about extreme racial profiling. :{/

[Crazyswordsman]

^^There's the hypocrisy exposed. -CSM

[Cosmonautical]

The south sure isn't doing much to stop us northerners from thinking its full of redneck morons.

[Crazyswordsman]

More Arizona absurdity. I really, REALLY hope the younger generation of Arizonans are fighting this (which I've seen many pics of). -CSM

Update: Even more!

[Lurch1982]

FWIW, this caused me to cancel my vacation to Arizona this summer, changed a few travel plans on a different trip so I wouldn't have to pass through the state, and caused me to not go to the Rockies/Diamondbacks series. My skin is dark enough to where I could be reasonably confused as latin, so I have absolutely no desire to travel into a state that wants me to present papers.

It won't cause the Congress to get into the immigration fight in an election year either because the real solution to the "problem" would piss off all the idiots.

Originally Posted by Universally Reviled Craven Unbeing

The south sure isn't doing much to stop us northerners from thinking its full of redneck morons.

Arizona's not the south.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by ZeldaGirl

As a resident Arizonan, I'm steamed. You mentioned why, Sampson (you don't mind if I call you that, do you? ). Immigration reform is desperately needed; racial profiling is not. The bill is so ridiculous and unconstitutional, I'm amazed that Jan Brewer signed it into law (but then I remember she's an idiot, so I stop being that surprised...).

Reform is needed, but this is going to cause more problems than it should, and it's going to infringe upon the rights of those who actually are citizens or who are here legally as well. Not to mention the logic behind the bill is bunk.

ZG, I'm glad you showed up. I was interested in hearing what an Arizonan had to say about the issue.

...

Keep posting your thoughts, guys and gals.

[ZeldaGirl]

^I've been seeing polls that say many Arizonans support this bill. But I have not met or spoke with a single one. Granted, I go to a university, but even on campus, students from both parties seem to be pretty pissed off, and there have been a lot of events protesting the bill. And now you get the new educational reforms to ethnic studies and teacher's accents, and the general consensus seems to be that we are all ashamed to be in Arizona.

[Metal Man]

Arizona is the new California. Both for prop-187-like nonsense and wacky behavior with the legislature.

* Metal Man glances at the slow end of the Schwarzenegger era

[Crazyswordsman]

Originally Posted by Lurch1982

Arizona's not the south.

It's certainly much less tolerant than the South, at least according to what we're seeing.

ZG, I'm pretty sure most young Arizonans who were brought up in the state are against the bill. A lot of retirees move to Arizona and they're the ones supporting it methinks.

Also, the one sponsoring these bills, Russell Pierce, has palled around with white supremacists and advocates requiring people to learn Western Civ and prohibit them from learning anything else. -CSM

[Lurch1982]

Originally Posted by Crazyswordsman

It's certainly much less tolerant than the South, at least according to what we're seeing.

LOL no.

Originally Posted by ZeldaGirl

^I've been seeing polls that say many Arizonans support this bill. But I have not met or spoke with a single one. Granted, I go to a university, but even on campus, students from both parties seem to be pretty pissed off, and there have been a lot of events protesting the bill. And now you get the new educational reforms to ethnic studies and teacher's accents, and the general consensus seems to be that we are all ashamed to be in Arizona.

FWIW people on the "America first, Mexicans GTFO" side of the issue outside of Arizona aren't exactly thrilled with the legislation because (1) the SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS aspect that will get it tossed and the (2) possibility to create a massive national backlash that will drown out their side when they do start discussing national immigration reform.

Also, as a resident in a more or less neighboring state, we're stoked your state was moronic enough to pass that bill because we're starting to pull conventions and other things away from Phoenix.

[Valigarmander]

Originally Posted by ZeldaGirl

A good friend of mine is Canadian. Last she was at the border, she told the Border Patrol this - they said "close enough" and didn't bother checking anything. Basically, this law is just targeting individuals who are non-white.

To be fair, there's only about one Canadian in the U.S. illegally for ever 100 Mexicans.