Western Society: Should the Burqa be Banned for Public Security?

***Cosmonautical*** · 05-07-2010, 09:10 AM

This is coming up as a hot issue in Western Culture. A lot of people are claiming that it infringes their right to religion and their choice of lifestyle, but I personally think that it defeats the purpose of division of country if the country cannot protect the lifestyle of choice of the majority of its citizens.

This is reflected in my usual belief that most governments are a catch-22 situation that can only work to the benefit of an indeterminate few.

I do have this question to pose to the nay-sayers, however: Why should anyone be allowed to wear a full-facial covering in public, if I am not? Why does a religion justify this, especially when religion is a preferential belief?

**Crazyswordsman** · 05-07-2010, 09:32 AM

As much as I despise the Burqa, I really don't see how it can be a threat to national security. In fact, I think banning it would only make things worse unless the government takes unprecedented steps to protect women. A lot of women, probably most women would have to choose between obeying the law and getting ostricized by their families or worse, their families could honor kill them. No one should have to choose between disobeying the law and fearing their lives.

One interesting thing is that the Burqa is actually a Pashtun tribal thing rathern than something that was invented with Islam. -CSM

**LASER BEAR ASSAULT UNIT** · 05-07-2010, 09:52 AM

It's a ****ing piece of cloth, big ****ing deal.

**Valigarmander** · 05-07-2010, 01:00 PM

A hijab is something required in more conservative Islamic beliefs for most muslim women as a form of modest clothing outside the home. What specific type of hijab is worn is largely dependent on culture. Most hijabs come in the form of loose-fitting clothing and a headscarf, which cover everything but the hands and face. A burqa is a type of hijab that coveres everything but the eyes (sometimes the eyes are covered as well).

I don't see how this is a "threat to security." However, the issue with the burqa is still something I'm not entirely decided on. Preferably (or in my opinion at least), people would ditch the burqa in favor of more liberal forms of the hijab, but I don't know whether it's the right thing to ban it. Different families will have different religious traditions and different interpretations of what "modest" means, and it's not like you can force someone to be less uptight about their religion.

So with banning the burqa, I'll just say "maybe" for now.

***CaptHayfever*** · 05-07-2010, 04:04 PM

We don't ban Halloween costumes or masquerade parties or mask-based acting, & those all involve fully covering the face, often outdoors and/or at random times throughout the year.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

I am nobody · 05-07-2010, 06:36 PM

Burqas are far from the only way to hide yourself if you are wanted or a bomb if you are a terrorist. Banning them would likely cause unrest/protests and would make terrorist groups hate us more than they already do, both of which are obviously not good effects.

EDIT: And to answer your other question, people should be allowed to wear facial covering's in public because they do not pose a threat to security. If anything, walking around in a mask will draw attention from security/police, making it more likely that you will be stopped than the guy who is carrying around a gun in his trenchcoat or the guy who has a bomb in his backpack.

Burqas really aren't any different than coats except for the facial covering. All of the terrorists that were recently captured in the US almost managed to complete their tasks and were not wearing masks (or stopped because of their face), so I think it's safe to say that we would be no less likely to catch a terrorist wearing a burqa than we would one not wearing a burqa. If anything, a burqa is going to draw attention and make it more likely that a terrorist wearing one would be caught.

heh · 05-07-2010, 08:09 PM

lets ban something important to some religons, i'm sure that won't raise a ****storm

as much as i hate burqas and that particular aspect of Islam in general its not a ****ing good idea.

Robotazy · 05-07-2010, 08:40 PM

So, then it'll be illegal to wrap your face?

I want to hear why it's a threat to security other than "Islamic Practice lol"

***Booyakasha*** · 05-07-2010, 08:59 PM

I've never seen anyone in a burqa. See quite a bit of the 'all covered up except for the face' look, whatever that's called---more than you might expect in Milwaukee. Don't really see a problem with any of it.

Are there actual laws against going around in a mask? Because that seems kind of arbitrary.

Lurch1982 · 05-10-2010, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booyakasha

I've never seen anyone in a burqa. See quite a bit of the 'all covered up except for the face' look, whatever that's called---more than you might expect in Milwaukee. Don't really see a problem with any of it.

TBH the only people I've ever seen in a burqa were Afghan refugees before we invaded or anyone in this country knew or cared about Afghanistan , and I've lived in several diverse areas.

It doesn't seem like a problem that needs to be fixed IMO, and banning them seems to do far more harm than good (either from the inevitable lawsuits or turning your particular area into a target zone for the kooks that normally wouldn't give a ****).

Kargath · 05-11-2010, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Booyakasha

I've never seen anyone in a burqa. See quite a bit of the 'all covered up except for the face' look, whatever that's called---more than you might expect in Milwaukee. Don't really see a problem with any of it.

Are there actual laws against going around in a mask? Because that seems kind of arbitrary.

There's regulations AFAIK against going into a bank wearing a motorcycle helmet or mask etc.

***Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds*** · 05-11-2010, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bats with Hats

lets ban something important to some religons, i'm sure that won't raise a ****storm

Do we let people marry underage children, or practice polygamy for the sake of "something important to religion"? Or stone someone to death? Public whippings? Honour killings? How about allowing the blame of a rape be placed squarely on the shoulders of the woman who was violated? There's a difference between freedom of religion and freedom of practicing it in whatever way you please, including when it's perverted to excuse people of their own crimes and failings.

Personally? I strongly support banning the full-face burqa, but not for any "security" bull****. If I went to their country/ies, I would respect their society enough to conform to their standards (ie. I wouldn't prance around wearing anything "inapproprate" to their culture). If they intend on moving to our country/ies, they should afford the same respect. Our culture doesn't account for subjugation of women.

"Security" and "terrorism" can **** off and die, but there are some laws already in place that make it illegal to cover your face in many public places, so they're already in some bizarre loophole anyway.

We have a very large Muslim community around where we live (likely due to the large Islamic school nearby). They are nice enough people, most of them are pretty much like anyone else you would meet, and the family that lives down the street say hi. All my experience with women wearing the full burqa, however, they don't make any effort whatsoever to communicate: eye-contact, polite acknowledgement, verbal greeting, nothing that's standard in our culture.

heh · 05-11-2010, 01:34 PM

marrying underage children, murder and rape are already crimes even if its not religious though? not the same as "don't wear this specific religious object on your face"

that said i forgot that you can't cover your face in some places, which makes it more like "getting rid of an exception" rather then "alienating Muslims for no good reason". so uh whatever.

***Cosmonautical*** · 05-12-2010, 08:45 AM

Yeah, the exception thing was my point. I didn't think it needed explanation, but that might have been an error of my perception. I was trying to invoke the whole "no special treatment" subject. I do not believe people should be made exceptions over their beliefs, especially as I am never the one given exception in these sort of instances.

It's essentially the same as sticking a crucifix up in a public courthouse, for me, because no one's capable of giving me space to put up my symbol - my symbol is a lack of a symbol. The only way I could expressly be catered to is to intentionally remove the symbols others place up. It's an infraction against my religious background, so I see the allowance as an exception to the "everyone gets a say" stance.

And anyone whose reply was "that's not a local issue" is overstating the obvious. That's why this addresses Western Society and not your immediately local government. Justification fail.

Lurch1982 · 05-12-2010, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Universally Reviled Craven Unbeing

And anyone whose reply was "that's not a local issue" is overstating the obvious. That's why this addresses Western Society and not your immediately local government. Justification fail.

It isn't a national issue either.

***Cosmonautical*** · 05-13-2010, 12:38 AM

Explain?

Kil'jaeden · 05-13-2010, 01:52 AM

I don't see how banning burqas would do anything to help security anywhere. It's just another article of clothing. I guess you could hide stuff in them or something, but any coat could do that. But, if you want to be really cynical about it, since this is about Muslims blowing things up, the burqa is more of a warning than other clothes would be. It also seems pointless to piss a lot of people off who take this seriously. Yes, I understand this has to do with how women are forced to dress in some places, but I also keep in mind that, say, in the US, that is not enforced by any law, and so should be the same as wearing any other article of clothing.

***Cosmonautical*** · 05-14-2010, 01:07 AM

^ Well for starters, a few of you here seem to be having a problem imagining communities where muslims and burqas are commonplace. They exist. Maybe not even within miles of where you live. Second of all, how exactly are you going to identify a person in a burqa, should they commit a crime? Third, apparently Lurch has made Western Society exclusively into America, somehow.

***Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds*** · 05-14-2010, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bats with Hats

marrying underage children, murder and rape are already crimes even if its not religious though? not the same as "don't wear this specific religious object on your face"

that said i forgot that you can't cover your face in some places, which makes it more like "getting rid of an exception" rather then "alienating Muslims for no good reason". so uh whatever.

Yes, and in case you weren't totally clear on it, the banning of burqas would make it a crime for people to wear them even if it's not religious.

Kil'jaeden · 05-14-2010, 02:19 PM

Crime is not an issue. People typically cover themselves if they are going to commit a robbery anyway, so the burqa really makes no difference.

05-07-2010, 09:10 AM	#1
*Cosmonautical* Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I rub my tilde all over your asterisk Gender: Posts: 28,100 Thanks: 2,151 Thanked 5,338 Times in 2,433 Posts	Western Society: Should the Burqa be Banned for Public Security? This is coming up as a hot issue in Western Culture. A lot of people are claiming that it infringes their right to religion and their choice of lifestyle, but I personally think that it defeats the purpose of division of country if the country cannot protect the lifestyle of choice of the majority of its citizens. This is reflected in my usual belief that most governments are a catch-22 situation that can only work to the benefit of an indeterminate few. I do have this question to pose to the nay-sayers, however: Why should anyone be allowed to wear a full-facial covering in public, if I am not? Why does a religion justify this, especially when religion is a preferential belief?

05-07-2010, 06:36 PM	#6
I am nobody Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Over there. Gender: Posts: 5,515 Thanks: 309 Thanked 365 Times in 242 Posts Blog Entries: 7	Burqas are far from the only way to hide yourself if you are wanted or a bomb if you are a terrorist. Banning them would likely cause unrest/protests and would make terrorist groups hate us more than they already do, both of which are obviously not good effects. EDIT: And to answer your other question, people should be allowed to wear facial covering's in public because they do not pose a threat to security. If anything, walking around in a mask will draw attention from security/police, making it more likely that you will be stopped than the guy who is carrying around a gun in his trenchcoat or the guy who has a bomb in his backpack. Burqas really aren't any different than coats except for the facial covering. All of the terrorists that were recently captured in the US almost managed to complete their tasks and were not wearing masks (or stopped because of their face), so I think it's safe to say that we would be no less likely to catch a terrorist wearing a burqa than we would one not wearing a burqa. If anything, a burqa is going to draw attention and make it more likely that a terrorist wearing one would be caught. Last edited by I am nobody; 05-07-2010 at 06:55 PM.

05-07-2010, 09:32 AM	#2
Crazyswordsman This key doesn't work. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Booyaville (yeah!) Gender: Posts: 10,791 Thanks: 1,019 Thanked 686 Times in 467 Posts	As much as I despise the Burqa, I really don't see how it can be a threat to national security. In fact, I think banning it would only make things worse unless the government takes unprecedented steps to protect women. A lot of women, probably most women would have to choose between obeying the law and getting ostricized by their families or worse, their families could honor kill them. No one should have to choose between disobeying the law and fearing their lives. One interesting thing is that the Burqa is actually a Pashtun tribal thing rathern than something that was invented with Islam. -CSM

05-07-2010, 09:52 AM	#3
LASER BEAR ASSAULT UNIT Videos Mod Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: In my pants Gender: Posts: 4,613 Thanks: 2,502 Thanked 767 Times in 422 Posts	It's a **ing piece of cloth, big **ing deal.

05-07-2010, 01:00 PM	#4
Valigarmander The Bee's Knees Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The land of rain and trees (Oregon) Gender: Posts: 29,755 Thanks: 1,649 Thanked 5,700 Times in 2,580 Posts Blog Entries: 20	A hijab is something required in more conservative Islamic beliefs for most muslim women as a form of modest clothing outside the home. What specific type of hijab is worn is largely dependent on culture. Most hijabs come in the form of loose-fitting clothing and a headscarf, which cover everything but the hands and face. A burqa is a type of hijab that coveres everything but the eyes (sometimes the eyes are covered as well). I don't see how this is a "threat to security." However, the issue with the burqa is still something I'm not entirely decided on. Preferably (or in my opinion at least), people would ditch the burqa in favor of more liberal forms of the hijab, but I don't know whether it's the right thing to ban it. Different families will have different religious traditions and different interpretations of what "modest" means, and it's not like you can force someone to be less uptight about their religion. So with banning the burqa, I'll just say "maybe" for now.

05-07-2010, 04:04 PM	#5
*CaptHayfever* Smash SuperMod Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: (n) - the place where I am Gender: Posts: 27,661 Thanks: 1,991 Thanked 2,486 Times in 1,513 Posts	We don't ban Halloween costumes or masquerade parties or mask-based acting, & those all involve fully covering the face, often outdoors and/or at random times throughout the year. And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

05-07-2010, 08:09 PM	#7
heh Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: lo-ca-tion; Noun- 1. a place or situation occupied: That house is in a fine location Gender: Posts: 9,849 Thanks: 710 Thanked 955 Times in 628 Posts	lets ban something important to some religons, i'm sure that won't raise a **storm as much as i hate burqas and that particular aspect of Islam in general its not a **ing good idea.

05-07-2010, 08:40 PM	#8
Robotazy PRESS ANY KEY TO PANIC! Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: A Tiny Shed Gender: Posts: 16,483 Thanks: 529 Thanked 1,254 Times in 897 Posts Blog Entries: 46	So, then it'll be illegal to wrap your face? I want to hear why it's a threat to security other than "Islamic Practice lol"

05-07-2010, 08:59 PM	#9
*Booyakasha* SuperMod of War Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Wisconsinland Gender: Posts: 9,945 Thanks: 157 Thanked 1,481 Times in 763 Posts	I've never seen anyone in a burqa. See quite a bit of the 'all covered up except for the face' look, whatever that's called---more than you might expect in Milwaukee. Don't really see a problem with any of it. Are there actual laws against going around in a mask? Because that seems kind of arbitrary.

05-11-2010, 01:34 PM	#13
heh Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: lo-ca-tion; Noun- 1. a place or situation occupied: That house is in a fine location Gender: Posts: 9,849 Thanks: 710 Thanked 955 Times in 628 Posts	marrying underage children, murder and rape are already crimes even if its not religious though? not the same as "don't wear this specific religious object on your face" that said i forgot that you can't cover your face in some places, which makes it more like "getting rid of an exception" rather then "alienating Muslims for no good reason". so uh whatever.

05-12-2010, 08:45 AM	#14
*Cosmonautical* Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I rub my tilde all over your asterisk Gender: Posts: 28,100 Thanks: 2,151 Thanked 5,338 Times in 2,433 Posts	Yeah, the exception thing was my point. I didn't think it needed explanation, but that might have been an error of my perception. I was trying to invoke the whole "no special treatment" subject. I do not believe people should be made exceptions over their beliefs, especially as I am never the one given exception in these sort of instances. It's essentially the same as sticking a crucifix up in a public courthouse, for me, because no one's capable of giving me space to put up my symbol - my symbol is a lack of a symbol. The only way I could expressly be catered to is to intentionally remove the symbols others place up. It's an infraction against my religious background, so I see the allowance as an exception to the "everyone gets a say" stance. And anyone whose reply was "that's not a local issue" is overstating the obvious. That's why this addresses Western Society and not your immediately local government. Justification fail.

05-13-2010, 12:38 AM	#16
*Cosmonautical* Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I rub my tilde all over your asterisk Gender: Posts: 28,100 Thanks: 2,151 Thanked 5,338 Times in 2,433 Posts	Explain?

05-13-2010, 01:52 AM	#17
Kil'jaeden Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: in your mind Gender: Posts: 2,132 Thanks: 21 Thanked 146 Times in 99 Posts	I don't see how banning burqas would do anything to help security anywhere. It's just another article of clothing. I guess you could hide stuff in them or something, but any coat could do that. But, if you want to be really cynical about it, since this is about Muslims blowing things up, the burqa is more of a warning than other clothes would be. It also seems pointless to piss a lot of people off who take this seriously. Yes, I understand this has to do with how women are forced to dress in some places, but I also keep in mind that, say, in the US, that is not enforced by any law, and so should be the same as wearing any other article of clothing.

05-14-2010, 01:07 AM	#18
*Cosmonautical* Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I rub my tilde all over your asterisk Gender: Posts: 28,100 Thanks: 2,151 Thanked 5,338 Times in 2,433 Posts	^ Well for starters, a few of you here seem to be having a problem imagining communities where muslims and burqas are commonplace. They exist. Maybe not even within miles of where you live. Second of all, how exactly are you going to identify a person in a burqa, should they commit a crime? Third, apparently Lurch has made Western Society exclusively into America, somehow.

05-14-2010, 02:19 PM	#20
Kil'jaeden Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: in your mind Gender: Posts: 2,132 Thanks: 21 Thanked 146 Times in 99 Posts	Crime is not an issue. People typically cover themselves if they are going to commit a robbery anyway, so the burqa really makes no difference.