Is poker immoral

**S1x** · 11-30-2010, 02:01 AM

Opinions I hear are very mixed.

Discuss.

Jere · 11-30-2010, 02:12 AM

back in the 30s i know poker and other gamblin was considered immoral here

**Valigarmander** · 11-30-2010, 08:05 AM

No.

Gambling? I wouldn't say it's "immoral", but I might call it a bad habit.

***Booyakasha*** · 11-30-2010, 08:31 AM

Not in itself. I don't think any of the so-called 'vices' are inherently immoral, as long as you keep things in moderation.

Robotazy · 11-30-2010, 10:00 AM

Poker is not an immoral activity, just like how Scrabble is not immoral, and you can totally bet money on Scrabble too.

Poker is no different than any other game, it has a set of rules and strategies for victory, the fact that you play for money is no different than any other game with a resource, you play until you get it all or lose it all.

**Loot** · 11-30-2010, 10:11 AM

Poker shot ma' paw. Then he beat ma' maw.

... Yup. One evil son-of-a-gun there.

***Cosmonautical*** · 11-30-2010, 10:22 AM

Amoral, perhaps. That doesn't make it wrong. Just a bad idea for a lot of people.

**Deku Trii** · 11-30-2010, 12:15 PM

It's just one of those things that could really get out of control if you aren't careful.

Rainbow Dash · 11-30-2010, 01:52 PM

no because then my steam account would be immoral

***CaptHayfever*** · 11-30-2010, 02:04 PM

It's a flimsy argument, for a couple reasons...
1) One form of the argument that poker is immoral is that winning money promotes covetous behavior towards other people's money. This obviously ignores players who are only in it for the game, as well as games that don't bet real money (celebrity charity tournaments, for example). It also opens a floodgate which could call ANY game with a prize covetous, & that's just silly.
2) Another form of the argument says that wagering is a sin because it's "relying on luck instead of God". In addition to ignoring card-counting, this also discounts people who play poker but don't believe in luck. And again, it opens up a floodgate against ANY game that isn't 100% skill-based...& even those could be called luck, since you're essentially betting that you're more skilled than your opponent.
3) Yet another form is based on addiction to gambling. This ignores people who AREN'T addicted to gambling. Duh.

In short: Bet with your head, not over it.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number 1-800-BETS-OFF!"

PK FIRE! · 11-30-2010, 04:48 PM

Moderation seems to be something that people have a problem with, though I'm not sure if that's entirely all our fault given what the Skinner box seems to prove about reward and loss.

- You stupid dog.

***Booyakasha*** · 11-30-2010, 04:51 PM

^Depends on the person.

***Ace Mercury*** · 11-30-2010, 05:58 PM

Depends on what sort of morality system you're working with.

This question doesn't really make any sense to me as it is worded, as poker is an inanimate game/rule set. I group it along with questions like "Is green loud?"

Is the very existence of poker being questioned? The participation of humans playing poker? The specific aspect of poker in its role in gambling? The global effect of poker on the universe versus a universe which does not have poker?

**S1x** · 11-30-2010, 06:26 PM

Basically the act of participating in it.

**Cravdraa** · 11-30-2010, 06:35 PM

Naw, it's just a game, like any other. There's nothing innately wrong with it.
I suppose if you really wanted to, you could break it down and argue the culture surrounding it is immoral, but it's just as easy to argue it's not. Regardless, that's not a fault of the actual game.

**Deku Trii** · 11-30-2010, 06:36 PM

So independent of whether you're even gambling? Can't see anything wrong with that, no. Not unless one has a problem with games that require deception.

Jailbreaker · 11-30-2010, 06:41 PM

Only some kinds...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerk Ten

Poker is not an immoral activity, just like how Scrabble is not immoral, and you can totally bet money on Scrabble too.

The last time I played scrabble, we used... words that would make it immoral in the eyes of most.

Interestingly, the first two words were

Code:

 D
JEW
 R
 P

In the shape of a cross.

[/offtopic]

**S1x** · 11-30-2010, 07:24 PM

Actually I think if you're risking nothing or something with no value then it's kind of not the same game.

***Cosmonautical*** · 12-02-2010, 06:01 AM

I suppose? I don't really see how the game gains worth by valuing what's at stake.

***Ace Mercury*** · 12-02-2010, 08:29 AM

So I guess s1x's conjecture lies with these propositions:

Gambling is immoral
The use of money in poker constitutes gambling
Poker is not real poker unless it is with money or other real collateral

The morality of gambling is debatable, but by and large it's not a good idea. For the purpose of this post, let's take it as a given that gambling is bad.

Is playing poker with money gambling? The common sense answer is yes. It doesn't feel like "earning" money. Although poker does demand skill (e.g. calculating odds, reading opponents), in any given deal, there is a hefty element of chance.

Now, can you play poker without gambling? I argue though you can. Poker tournaments have a purse, but use arbitrary chips to determine current state. The chips do not represent any amount of money by themselves; it's just that the winner of the purse is the one who collects all of the chips. The game doesn't become not-poker when the purse is "nothing".

The act of adding a valuable purse might make it immoral (i.e. gambling), but as AI said (with far fewer words), you can add dollars to skeeball and make Chuck-e-cheese immoral.

11-30-2010, 02:01 AM	#1
S1x VGF RPG Mod Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Loading...... Gender: Posts: 7,289 Thanks: 26 Thanked 493 Times in 201 Posts Blog Entries: 1	Is poker immoral Opinions I hear are very mixed. Discuss.

11-30-2010, 10:11 AM	#6
Loot Apparently I'm a mod? Join Date: May 2001 Location: LEGITIMATE BUSINESS Gender: Posts: 13,208 Thanks: 236 Thanked 1,237 Times in 659 Posts	Of bloody course not. Poker shot ma' paw. Then he beat ma' maw. ... Yup. One evil son-of-a-gun there.

12-02-2010, 08:29 AM	#20
*Ace Mercury* Marshmallow Knight ☆ Supermod Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Southern Ontario Gender: Posts: 23,275 Thanks: 568 Thanked 3,297 Times in 1,582 Posts Blog Entries: 1	In which I use too many words So I guess s1x's conjecture lies with these propositions: Gambling is immoral The use of money in poker constitutes gambling Poker is not real poker unless it is with money or other real collateral The morality of gambling is debatable, but by and large it's not a good idea. For the purpose of this post, let's take it as a given that gambling is bad. Is playing poker with money gambling? The common sense answer is yes. It doesn't feel like "earning" money. Although poker does demand skill (e.g. calculating odds, reading opponents), in any given deal, there is a hefty element of chance. Now, can you play poker without gambling? I argue though you can. Poker tournaments have a purse, but use arbitrary chips to determine current state. The chips do not represent any amount of money by themselves; it's just that the winner of the purse is the one who collects all of the chips. The game doesn't become not-poker when the purse is "nothing". The act of adding a valuable purse might make it immoral (i.e. gambling), but as AI said (with far fewer words), you can add dollars to skeeball and make Chuck-e-cheese immoral.

11-30-2010, 02:12 AM	#2
Jere Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Sutme Gender: Posts: 3,648 Thanks: 404 Thanked 331 Times in 256 Posts Blog Entries: 3	back in the 30s i know poker and other gamblin was considered immoral here

11-30-2010, 08:05 AM	#3
Valigarmander The Bee's Knees Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The land of rain and trees (Oregon) Gender: Posts: 29,755 Thanks: 1,649 Thanked 5,700 Times in 2,580 Posts Blog Entries: 20	No. Gambling? I wouldn't say it's "immoral", but I might call it a bad habit.

11-30-2010, 08:31 AM	#4
*Booyakasha* SuperMod of War Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Wisconsinland Gender: Posts: 9,945 Thanks: 157 Thanked 1,481 Times in 763 Posts	Not in itself. I don't think any of the so-called 'vices' are inherently immoral, as long as you keep things in moderation.

11-30-2010, 10:00 AM	#5
Robotazy PRESS ANY KEY TO PANIC! Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: A Tiny Shed Gender: Posts: 16,483 Thanks: 529 Thanked 1,254 Times in 897 Posts Blog Entries: 46	Poker is not an immoral activity, just like how Scrabble is not immoral, and you can totally bet money on Scrabble too. Poker is no different than any other game, it has a set of rules and strategies for victory, the fact that you play for money is no different than any other game with a resource, you play until you get it all or lose it all.

11-30-2010, 10:22 AM	#7
*Cosmonautical* Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I rub my tilde all over your asterisk Gender: Posts: 28,100 Thanks: 2,151 Thanked 5,338 Times in 2,433 Posts	Amoral, perhaps. That doesn't make it wrong. Just a bad idea for a lot of people.

11-30-2010, 12:15 PM	#8
Deku Trii PP&R Mod Current Events Mod Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Texas Gender: Posts: 9,031 Thanks: 521 Thanked 1,099 Times in 583 Posts	It's just one of those things that could really get out of control if you aren't careful.

11-30-2010, 01:52 PM	#9
Rainbow Dash been dreamin', i've been waitin' Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: a bomb-ass cloud house bachelorette pad Gender: Posts: 24,401 Thanks: 173 Thanked 1,179 Times in 716 Posts	no because then my steam account would be immoral

11-30-2010, 02:04 PM	#10
*CaptHayfever* Smash SuperMod Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: (n) - the place where I am Gender: Posts: 27,661 Thanks: 1,991 Thanked 2,486 Times in 1,513 Posts	It's a flimsy argument, for a couple reasons... 1) One form of the argument that poker is immoral is that winning money promotes covetous behavior towards other people's money. This obviously ignores players who are only in it for the game, as well as games that don't bet real money (celebrity charity tournaments, for example). It also opens a floodgate which could call ANY game with a prize covetous, & that's just silly. 2) Another form of the argument says that wagering is a sin because it's "relying on luck instead of God". In addition to ignoring card-counting, this also discounts people who play poker but don't believe in luck. And again, it opens up a floodgate against ANY game that isn't 100% skill-based...& even those could be called luck, since you're essentially betting that you're more skilled than your opponent. 3) Yet another form is based on addiction to gambling. This ignores people who AREN'T addicted to gambling. Duh. In short: Bet with your head, not over it. And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number 1-800-BETS-OFF!"

11-30-2010, 04:48 PM	#11
PK FIRE! Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: On the run. Gender: Posts: 9,544 Thanks: 175 Thanked 150 Times in 120 Posts	Moderation seems to be something that people have a problem with, though I'm not sure if that's entirely all our fault given what the Skinner box seems to prove about reward and loss. - You stupid dog.

11-30-2010, 04:51 PM	#12
*Booyakasha* SuperMod of War Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Wisconsinland Gender: Posts: 9,945 Thanks: 157 Thanked 1,481 Times in 763 Posts	^Depends on the person.

11-30-2010, 05:58 PM	#13
*Ace Mercury* Marshmallow Knight ☆ Supermod Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Southern Ontario Gender: Posts: 23,275 Thanks: 568 Thanked 3,297 Times in 1,582 Posts Blog Entries: 1	Depends on what sort of morality system you're working with. This question doesn't really make any sense to me as it is worded, as poker is an inanimate game/rule set. I group it along with questions like "Is green loud?" Is the very existence of poker being questioned? The participation of humans playing poker? The specific aspect of poker in its role in gambling? The global effect of poker on the universe versus a universe which does not have poker?

11-30-2010, 06:26 PM	#14
S1x VGF RPG Mod Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Loading...... Gender: Posts: 7,289 Thanks: 26 Thanked 493 Times in 201 Posts Blog Entries: 1	Basically the act of participating in it.

11-30-2010, 06:35 PM	#15
Cravdraa VGF RPG Mod Join Date: May 2001 Location: It's Round on the sides and high in the middle. Gender: Posts: 8,470 Thanks: 171 Thanked 661 Times in 403 Posts	Naw, it's just a game, like any other. There's nothing innately wrong with it. I suppose if you really wanted to, you could break it down and argue the culture surrounding it is immoral, but it's just as easy to argue it's not. Regardless, that's not a fault of the actual game.

11-30-2010, 06:36 PM	#16
Deku Trii PP&R Mod Current Events Mod Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Texas Gender: Posts: 9,031 Thanks: 521 Thanked 1,099 Times in 583 Posts	So independent of whether you're even gambling? Can't see anything wrong with that, no. Not unless one has a problem with games that require deception.

11-30-2010, 07:24 PM	#18
S1x VGF RPG Mod Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Loading...... Gender: Posts: 7,289 Thanks: 26 Thanked 493 Times in 201 Posts Blog Entries: 1	Actually I think if you're risking nothing or something with no value then it's kind of not the same game.

12-02-2010, 06:01 AM	#19
*Cosmonautical* Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I rub my tilde all over your asterisk Gender: Posts: 28,100 Thanks: 2,151 Thanked 5,338 Times in 2,433 Posts	I suppose? I don't really see how the game gains worth by valuing what's at stake.