The Spider and the Butterfly

Vgfian · 09-14-2011, 06:34 AM

I have a simple question for anyone willing to answer.

If one day you saw a innocent butterfly caught in a spider's web, struggling to get free and about to meet his/her impending doom at the end of the spider's fangs, would you help the butterfly to get free, or would you let nature take it's course and allow the spider to kill the butterfly in order for it to survive since the butterfly at the time is its only food source?

***Cosmonautical*** · 09-14-2011, 06:54 AM

*shrug* butterfly will die eventually, and so will the spider. You can't involve yourself personally in every little conflict. The lives of butterflies are built on years and years of deaths. Almost every bit of organic matter in the world has been part of another thing that died to support current life.

So making the decision is pointless.

***Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds*** · 09-14-2011, 07:08 AM

My issue: the spider is just as innocent as the butterfly. If you are making that kind of superior moral judgement because spiders are predatory, so are some butterflies. *grumble*

***Booyakasha*** · 09-14-2011, 08:36 AM

As far as I'm concerned, there isn't a single credible moral argument for interfering in the natural predator-prey dynamic (unless it involves people, of course).

SD nailed it---calling the butterfly 'innocent' is meaningless. Reading good and evil into the situation turns nature into a Disney movie.

Vgfian · 09-14-2011, 10:41 AM

The spider must kill something beautiful in order to survive. Is that a justification? I mean after all it is for its own survival and it is the predator meeting its prey. It is the natural order of things. but technically if you are in fact another creature of nature and you interfere, does that not mean that you interfering is in fact a part of the natural process as well?
That beside the point, just a thought.

But I have to ask, what if the two weren't entirely separate species? What if it were one human being about to "kill and devour" another for their own "survival or benefit"?

Whatever those terms could mean to you.

Would you interfere then or let nature take its course? Please explain.

***Cosmonautical*** · 09-14-2011, 12:45 PM

Eh, that's a complicated matter because we share common language. People without sympathy don't necessarily deserve sympathy, and that is their own responsibility. I would see a person willing to kill and eat another as a potential threat to me, and probably have to subdue them in a way that renders them less of a threat to myself, provided I desire to live. That would typically be easier accomplished with the aid of the person about to be eaten.

Of course, that depends on the state of mind I'm in all the same. That state of mind is affected by context.

I don't necessarily think any person has more right to do anything than another, but we all have motives that create conflicts in a ludicrous variety of situations.

So do I think it is "wrong" for one person to kill another for a gain they believe essential to their survival? Not inherently, but I might consider it a warning. I don't see any justification for human life as a universally valuable commodity, but I am contextually obligated by internal motives to observe that killing applies to me as well as others.

My default indifference also extends to the ending of life, however, as it does to sustaining it. I don't necessarily believe any one or thing has any right to take life. I don't feel that any "right" is inherent.

So making the decision has no measurable value, again. You define context, in every situation.

And I honestly have no reason to think a spider is no less beautiful than a butterfly, merely that a butterfly is closer to my current understanding of beauty. It's presumptive to even think that I consider butterflies beautiful. Can the butterfly even be beautiful, if it isn't a rare commodity? Too many butterflies could be a problem. Your definition of beauty is defined by your preconceptions, which can be altered. It's equally an injustice, perhaps, to fail to see the beauty in a spider or its web or its ability to nourish itself with a butterfly and pass on itself to give rise to further beauties.

**Valigarmander** · 09-14-2011, 12:46 PM

But what if the butterfly was pregnant?

**X-3** · 09-14-2011, 01:25 PM

I would eat the butterfly.

Redshirt · 09-14-2011, 01:33 PM

Take pictures

Dizzy · 09-14-2011, 01:50 PM

Butterflies taste horrible, I'm doing the spider a favor.

***CaptHayfever*** · 09-14-2011, 01:52 PM

I'd get webbing all over my hands, & probably end up bitten by the spider myself, probably all for naught since it would be nigh-impossible to actually free the butterfly without crushing its wings in the process.

And remember, "I'm-a Alexander, number the Great!"

Leinad · 09-14-2011, 01:52 PM

My own opinion is that no matter the outcome, one of these creatures has to die, and so it should not be interfered with; nature should be allowed to run it's course. Looking to the idea VGFian proposed about if they were human, then it depends if I have any stake in the results at all. If for example someone I knew was either the spider or the butterfly in this situation, then as long as it does not impact my own ability to survive I would likely help them, though as AI has stated this is down to the context of the situation. If I did not have any personal attachment to either party, then I would have to side with the one that benefited me the most, within the context of morality to the situation.

And now I have to go re-watch Trigun.

**Loot** · 09-14-2011, 03:29 PM

I'd burn both of them with a lighter.

I hate bugs.

Kil'jaeden · 09-14-2011, 09:53 PM

The spider will get what's coming to it when it meets a wasp.

As for the problem, I would save the butterfly, if only on a whim. Sure, the spider is a predator, and it can eat the butterfly, but I am bigger than both of them, so if I want to intervene the spider can try and stop me. Maybe next time I see it I will side with the spider, to keep things balanced.

***Cosmonautical*** · 09-15-2011, 12:38 AM

What if less butterflies overall will exist without the events of the spider eating the first one, anyway? There's something in that.

**Loot** · 09-15-2011, 12:45 AM

What if

That spider was a bear

And that butterfly was Harrison Ford

***Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds*** · 09-15-2011, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vgfian

The spider must kill something beautiful in order to survive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds

My issue: the spider is just as beautiful as the butterfly.

**Loot** · 09-15-2011, 01:18 AM

But SD

The butterfly is now Harrison Ford

Vgfian · 09-15-2011, 01:26 AM

^^Yup.

CuccoLady · 09-15-2011, 01:43 AM

I just visualized in my brain walking along and seeing a butterfly in this situation, and in it I just walked on. Partially because the spider needs a dinner and partially because, like Captain said, I wouldn't actually be able to do anything for it. I'd just end up in a tangled mess. Nothing good could come of it.

View Poll Results: Would you help the butterfly or allow the spider its meal?
Help the butterfly.	1	9.09%
Don't help the butterfly.	7	63.64%
Help the spider.	1	9.09%
Neither actually exists, they are part of a simulated environment called the Matrix.	2	18.18%
Voters: 11. You may not vote on this poll \| Withdraw Vote

09-14-2011, 06:34 AM	#1
Vgfian Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Listening to Seeking 7 Seven and giving out free hugs. :) Gender: Posts: 6,862 Thanks: 2,433 Thanked 398 Times in 311 Posts	The Spider and the Butterfly I have a simple question for anyone willing to answer. If one day you saw a innocent butterfly caught in a spider's web, struggling to get free and about to meet his/her impending doom at the end of the spider's fangs, would you help the butterfly to get free, or would you let nature take it's course and allow the spider to kill the butterfly in order for it to survive since the butterfly at the time is its only food source?

09-14-2011, 12:45 PM	#6
*Cosmonautical* Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I rub my tilde all over your asterisk Gender: Posts: 28,100 Thanks: 2,151 Thanked 5,338 Times in 2,433 Posts	Eh, that's a complicated matter because we share common language. People without sympathy don't necessarily deserve sympathy, and that is their own responsibility. I would see a person willing to kill and eat another as a potential threat to me, and probably have to subdue them in a way that renders them less of a threat to myself, provided I desire to live. That would typically be easier accomplished with the aid of the person about to be eaten. Of course, that depends on the state of mind I'm in all the same. That state of mind is affected by context. I don't necessarily think any person has more right to do anything than another, but we all have motives that create conflicts in a ludicrous variety of situations. So do I think it is "wrong" for one person to kill another for a gain they believe essential to their survival? Not inherently, but I might consider it a warning. I don't see any justification for human life as a universally valuable commodity, but I am contextually obligated by internal motives to observe that killing applies to me as well as others. My default indifference also extends to the ending of life, however, as it does to sustaining it. I don't necessarily believe any one or thing has any right to take life. I don't feel that any "right" is inherent. So making the decision has no measurable value, again. You define context, in every situation. And I honestly have no reason to think a spider is no less beautiful than a butterfly, merely that a butterfly is closer to my current understanding of beauty. It's presumptive to even think that I consider butterflies beautiful. Can the butterfly even be beautiful, if it isn't a rare commodity? Too many butterflies could be a problem. Your definition of beauty is defined by your preconceptions, which can be altered. It's equally an injustice, perhaps, to fail to see the beauty in a spider or its web or its ability to nourish itself with a butterfly and pass on itself to give rise to further beauties. Last edited by Cosmonautical; 09-14-2011 at 12:53 PM.

09-14-2011, 06:54 AM	#2
*Cosmonautical* Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I rub my tilde all over your asterisk Gender: Posts: 28,100 Thanks: 2,151 Thanked 5,338 Times in 2,433 Posts	shrug butterfly will die eventually, and so will the spider. You can't involve yourself personally in every little conflict. The lives of butterflies are built on years and years of deaths. Almost every bit of organic matter in the world has been part of another thing that died to support current life. So making the decision is pointless.

09-14-2011, 07:08 AM	#3
*Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds* Admin "mine.. not yours. NO. MINE." Epic Ladynerd Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Forteresse de Valois Gender: Posts: 28,504 Thanks: 1,658 Thanked 1,820 Times in 1,042 Posts	My issue: the spider is just as innocent as the butterfly. If you are making that kind of superior moral judgement because spiders are predatory, so are some butterflies. grumble

09-14-2011, 08:36 AM	#4
*Booyakasha* SuperMod of War Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Wisconsinland Gender: Posts: 9,945 Thanks: 157 Thanked 1,481 Times in 763 Posts	As far as I'm concerned, there isn't a single credible moral argument for interfering in the natural predator-prey dynamic (unless it involves people, of course). SD nailed it---calling the butterfly 'innocent' is meaningless. Reading good and evil into the situation turns nature into a Disney movie.

09-14-2011, 10:41 AM	#5
Vgfian Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Listening to Seeking 7 Seven and giving out free hugs. :) Gender: Posts: 6,862 Thanks: 2,433 Thanked 398 Times in 311 Posts	The spider must kill something beautiful in order to survive. Is that a justification? I mean after all it is for its own survival and it is the predator meeting its prey. It is the natural order of things. but technically if you are in fact another creature of nature and you interfere, does that not mean that you interfering is in fact a part of the natural process as well? That beside the point, just a thought. But I have to ask, what if the two weren't entirely separate species? What if it were one human being about to "kill and devour" another for their own "survival or benefit"? Whatever those terms could mean to you. Would you interfere then or let nature take its course? Please explain.

09-14-2011, 12:46 PM	#7
Valigarmander The Bee's Knees Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The land of rain and trees (Oregon) Gender: Posts: 29,755 Thanks: 1,649 Thanked 5,700 Times in 2,580 Posts Blog Entries: 20	But what if the butterfly was pregnant?

09-14-2011, 01:25 PM	#8
X-3 Useful as an Owl Join Date: Jan 2004 Gender: Posts: 15,944 Thanks: 753 Thanked 1,213 Times in 790 Posts Blog Entries: 10	I would eat the butterfly.

09-14-2011, 01:33 PM	#9
Redshirt Wiggidy Wack Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: A place with things Gender: Posts: 16,699 Thanks: 704 Thanked 1,006 Times in 695 Posts Blog Entries: 50	Take pictures

09-14-2011, 01:50 PM	#10
Dizzy Podiaphobe Join Date: Oct 2007 Gender: Posts: 19,359 Thanks: 1,764 Thanked 1,161 Times in 804 Posts Blog Entries: 116	Butterflies taste horrible, I'm doing the spider a favor.

09-14-2011, 01:52 PM	#11
*CaptHayfever* Smash SuperMod Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: (n) - the place where I am Gender: Posts: 27,661 Thanks: 1,991 Thanked 2,486 Times in 1,513 Posts	I'd get webbing all over my hands, & probably end up bitten by the spider myself, probably all for naught since it would be nigh-impossible to actually free the butterfly without crushing its wings in the process. And remember, "I'm-a Alexander, number the Great!"

09-14-2011, 01:52 PM	#12
Leinad Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: That place where I live. Gender: Posts: 1,813 Thanks: 47 Thanked 56 Times in 48 Posts	My own opinion is that no matter the outcome, one of these creatures has to die, and so it should not be interfered with; nature should be allowed to run it's course. Looking to the idea VGFian proposed about if they were human, then it depends if I have any stake in the results at all. If for example someone I knew was either the spider or the butterfly in this situation, then as long as it does not impact my own ability to survive I would likely help them, though as AI has stated this is down to the context of the situation. If I did not have any personal attachment to either party, then I would have to side with the one that benefited me the most, within the context of morality to the situation. And now I have to go re-watch Trigun.

09-14-2011, 03:29 PM	#13
Loot Apparently I'm a mod? Join Date: May 2001 Location: LEGITIMATE BUSINESS Gender: Posts: 13,208 Thanks: 236 Thanked 1,237 Times in 659 Posts	I'd burn both of them with a lighter. I hate bugs.

09-14-2011, 09:53 PM	#14
Kil'jaeden Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: in your mind Gender: Posts: 2,132 Thanks: 21 Thanked 146 Times in 99 Posts	The spider will get what's coming to it when it meets a wasp. As for the problem, I would save the butterfly, if only on a whim. Sure, the spider is a predator, and it can eat the butterfly, but I am bigger than both of them, so if I want to intervene the spider can try and stop me. Maybe next time I see it I will side with the spider, to keep things balanced.

09-15-2011, 12:38 AM	#15
*Cosmonautical* Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I rub my tilde all over your asterisk Gender: Posts: 28,100 Thanks: 2,151 Thanked 5,338 Times in 2,433 Posts	What if less butterflies overall will exist without the events of the spider eating the first one, anyway? There's something in that.

09-15-2011, 12:45 AM	#16
Loot Apparently I'm a mod? Join Date: May 2001 Location: LEGITIMATE BUSINESS Gender: Posts: 13,208 Thanks: 236 Thanked 1,237 Times in 659 Posts	What if That spider was a bear And that butterfly was Harrison Ford

09-15-2011, 01:18 AM	#18
Loot Apparently I'm a mod? Join Date: May 2001 Location: LEGITIMATE BUSINESS Gender: Posts: 13,208 Thanks: 236 Thanked 1,237 Times in 659 Posts	But SD The butterfly is now Harrison Ford

09-15-2011, 01:26 AM	#19
Vgfian Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Listening to Seeking 7 Seven and giving out free hugs. :) Gender: Posts: 6,862 Thanks: 2,433 Thanked 398 Times in 311 Posts	^^Yup.

09-15-2011, 01:43 AM	#20
CuccoLady Anime and Cartoons Mod Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: THIS LOCATION REMINDS ME OF A PUZZLE, LUKE Gender: Posts: 9,077 Thanks: 2,825 Thanked 1,222 Times in 822 Posts	I just visualized in my brain walking along and seeing a butterfly in this situation, and in it I just walked on. Partially because the spider needs a dinner and partially because, like Captain said, I wouldn't actually be able to do anything for it. I'd just end up in a tangled mess. Nothing good could come of it.