On the topic of education

ZeldaGirl · 09-19-2011, 11:54 AM

I've been having personal discussions with RL friends lately about education - specifically, higher education (that is, post-secondary or after high school). A common theme that has come up often is the debate: is higher education a right, or a privilege?

The way the system works now is fundamentally flawed in the US - there are multitudes of studies that show even having some college is better for you economically than having none, yet equal access to colleges and universities is a constant struggle - it's very much a principle of the best universities are better to attend because they are more prestigious, and they will benefit you more economically...but most students who get into such universities are already wealthy and have other advantages. Access to higher education often depends, unfortunately, on socioeconomic status. With this in mind, our society (the US, that is) is seemingly perpetuating a cycle and preventing those who have more need to receive better educations.

One argument I've heard about the aforementioned situation is that, in a democracy, it should be the goal to ensure that all voters are educated to the best of their ability, that it is one of the inalienable (or unalienable, Thomas Jefferson

) rights - and we must fundamentally change the system to ensure that everyone has the right to attend higher education if they so choose.

Another way of looking at the question posed is that more and more jobs are now requiring higher degrees of some sort - many that once accepted bachelor's degrees are now requiring master's and so on. Yet, there are also many jobs that now people who have attended higher education are overqualified for. If everyone who wants to obtain higher education (quality higher education, that is), then there will be no labor force remaining - therefore, education should be a privilege for only the best and the brightest (or, as has been the case, the richest). Education does not necessarily precede happiness, and if everyone has the same degree, then new requirements will be placed on those seeking jobs that will force them to obtain even higher degrees, in order to maintain the balance of workers.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Kil'jaeden · 09-19-2011, 03:04 PM

Raising all these degree requirements is a problem. You don't need a masters to a the average cubicle drone. You can learn the repetitive task you are going to do quickly enough as long as you are not just stupid. Most jobs do not require some kind of great skill. We inflate things too much. And being overqualified is also an odd concept to me. If a person wants the job, then they obviously don't care about how qualified they are.

I think part of the reason why degrees have become a part of the system of employment is because people are not really self employed, for the most part. And the employers, rather than being this person or that person, someone you can meet on the street, are big entities made up of thousands, and controlled by a few very wealthy people that could not care less about the help, as long as profits come in more and faster. The people hiring are themselves employees, and are always looking upward. So, beyond a list of accomplishments and degrees, they don't consider much else but what looks good on paper. Universities are making a lot of money on this anyway, so of course they like it.

CuccoLady · 09-20-2011, 01:01 AM

This is a subject I've thought a lot about as well, because the town I come from was primarily working-class and not many of the people there WANTED to go to college, and those that did either couldn't because of money or because they couldn't get into the ones that OFFER money because they weren't prepared. Given this background, I also believe that part of the problem is that some high schools set up students for failure. My town, that had a very low mean socio-economic status, only ended up supporting a crappy high school with terrible teachers and few opportunities to excel. If you were at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder with parents who didn't speak enough English to help you write an essay, there was NO WAY for you to get into Stanford or Harvard to get the financial aid you need.

So pretty much it's not just college and up that's flawed. It's the whole school system.

Affluent communities have great schools that prepare students for success. Poorer communities have worse schools that prepare students for failure unless they have the resources to get past that, which not everyone does.

***Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds*** · 09-20-2011, 01:09 AM

The short version of my opinion: knowledge is free. You shouldn't need the piece of paper that pretentiously claims you're more qualified than someone just because you paid a pile of money to a school for it.

They can test people on their knowledge of subjects without the years of essays and decades of personal debt, but they generally won't.

**Crazyswordsman** · 09-20-2011, 06:14 AM

This is nothing new. Many struggling families not only can't afford college, but they also live in school districts that are sub-standard. There are charter schools in the area as well, but those often turn out to be worse off than the public schools. What colleges ought to do is focus more of their merit-based scholarships on these lower income communities, in order to find a hard working student in a sub-standard high school who is willing to try and make it at a prestigious university.

I know if I was ever able to afford to start a scholarship fund it would be to focus on inner city youth who want to become engineers. -CSM

monstrman · 09-21-2011, 03:45 AM

Unfortunately I think I have to say that the problem is at the core.

No economy can survive without a workforce and the people who already have power will keep it, because people like to live that way. Someone always has to be on top, and another person has to be stepped on for them to get there. The problem lies even beyond socioeconomic status into the inherent greed of humanity. We covet everything we see, and until that problem is fixed we will never solve this one.

***Cosmonautical*** · 09-21-2011, 07:56 AM

^ Take out all of their eyes.

Except mine, I'm not covetous.

Sim Kid · 09-23-2011, 12:54 AM

Some say that college is just an obstacle because most of the stuff you learn is completely worthless. *shrugs* That's part of the gimmicks of shows like "Are you smarter than a 5th grader".

But then again though, there's a lot of important stuff in school you still learn and is important throughout life. You learn what you're good at. You learn what you like to do. You learn how to interact with people. You learn how to work with people you wouldn't ordinarily seek out. You learn how to manage your time, etc. You can't exactly, well, teach that stuff.

09-19-2011, 11:54 AM	#1
ZeldaGirl Awesome member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Why do YOU want to know...? Gender: Posts: 15,896 Thanks: 1,130 Thanked 1,919 Times in 1,046 Posts	On the topic of education I've been having personal discussions with RL friends lately about education - specifically, higher education (that is, post-secondary or after high school). A common theme that has come up often is the debate: is higher education a right, or a privilege? The way the system works now is fundamentally flawed in the US - there are multitudes of studies that show even having some college is better for you economically than having none, yet equal access to colleges and universities is a constant struggle - it's very much a principle of the best universities are better to attend because they are more prestigious, and they will benefit you more economically...but most students who get into such universities are already wealthy and have other advantages. Access to higher education often depends, unfortunately, on socioeconomic status. With this in mind, our society (the US, that is) is seemingly perpetuating a cycle and preventing those who have more need to receive better educations. One argument I've heard about the aforementioned situation is that, in a democracy, it should be the goal to ensure that all voters are educated to the best of their ability, that it is one of the inalienable (or unalienable, Thomas Jefferson ) rights - and we must fundamentally change the system to ensure that everyone has the right to attend higher education if they so choose. Another way of looking at the question posed is that more and more jobs are now requiring higher degrees of some sort - many that once accepted bachelor's degrees are now requiring master's and so on. Yet, there are also many jobs that now people who have attended higher education are overqualified for. If everyone who wants to obtain higher education (quality higher education, that is), then there will be no labor force remaining - therefore, education should be a privilege for only the best and the brightest (or, as has been the case, the richest). Education does not necessarily precede happiness, and if everyone has the same degree, then new requirements will be placed on those seeking jobs that will force them to obtain even higher degrees, in order to maintain the balance of workers. What are your thoughts on the matter?

09-19-2011, 03:04 PM	#2
Kil'jaeden Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: in your mind Gender: Posts: 2,132 Thanks: 21 Thanked 146 Times in 99 Posts	Raising all these degree requirements is a problem. You don't need a masters to a the average cubicle drone. You can learn the repetitive task you are going to do quickly enough as long as you are not just stupid. Most jobs do not require some kind of great skill. We inflate things too much. And being overqualified is also an odd concept to me. If a person wants the job, then they obviously don't care about how qualified they are. I think part of the reason why degrees have become a part of the system of employment is because people are not really self employed, for the most part. And the employers, rather than being this person or that person, someone you can meet on the street, are big entities made up of thousands, and controlled by a few very wealthy people that could not care less about the help, as long as profits come in more and faster. The people hiring are themselves employees, and are always looking upward. So, beyond a list of accomplishments and degrees, they don't consider much else but what looks good on paper. Universities are making a lot of money on this anyway, so of course they like it.

09-20-2011, 01:01 AM	#3
CuccoLady Anime and Cartoons Mod Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: THIS LOCATION REMINDS ME OF A PUZZLE, LUKE Gender: Posts: 9,077 Thanks: 2,825 Thanked 1,222 Times in 822 Posts	This is a subject I've thought a lot about as well, because the town I come from was primarily working-class and not many of the people there WANTED to go to college, and those that did either couldn't because of money or because they couldn't get into the ones that OFFER money because they weren't prepared. Given this background, I also believe that part of the problem is that some high schools set up students for failure. My town, that had a very low mean socio-economic status, only ended up supporting a crappy high school with terrible teachers and few opportunities to excel. If you were at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder with parents who didn't speak enough English to help you write an essay, there was NO WAY for you to get into Stanford or Harvard to get the financial aid you need. So pretty much it's not just college and up that's flawed. It's the whole school system. Affluent communities have great schools that prepare students for success. Poorer communities have worse schools that prepare students for failure unless they have the resources to get past that, which not everyone does.

09-20-2011, 01:09 AM	#4
*Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds* Admin "mine.. not yours. NO. MINE." Epic Ladynerd Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Forteresse de Valois Gender: Posts: 28,504 Thanks: 1,658 Thanked 1,820 Times in 1,042 Posts	The short version of my opinion: knowledge is free. You shouldn't need the piece of paper that pretentiously claims you're more qualified than someone just because you paid a pile of money to a school for it. They can test people on their knowledge of subjects without the years of essays and decades of personal debt, but they generally won't.

09-20-2011, 06:14 AM	#5
Crazyswordsman This key doesn't work. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Booyaville (yeah!) Gender: Posts: 10,791 Thanks: 1,019 Thanked 686 Times in 467 Posts	This is nothing new. Many struggling families not only can't afford college, but they also live in school districts that are sub-standard. There are charter schools in the area as well, but those often turn out to be worse off than the public schools. What colleges ought to do is focus more of their merit-based scholarships on these lower income communities, in order to find a hard working student in a sub-standard high school who is willing to try and make it at a prestigious university. I know if I was ever able to afford to start a scholarship fund it would be to focus on inner city youth who want to become engineers. -CSM

09-21-2011, 03:45 AM	#6
monstrman Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: LET'S SAAAAAVE THE WOOOORLD. Gender: Posts: 1,035 Thanks: 87 Thanked 53 Times in 42 Posts Blog Entries: 5	Unfortunately I think I have to say that the problem is at the core. No economy can survive without a workforce and the people who already have power will keep it, because people like to live that way. Someone always has to be on top, and another person has to be stepped on for them to get there. The problem lies even beyond socioeconomic status into the inherent greed of humanity. We covet everything we see, and until that problem is fixed we will never solve this one.

09-21-2011, 07:56 AM	#7
*Cosmonautical* Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I rub my tilde all over your asterisk Gender: Posts: 28,100 Thanks: 2,151 Thanked 5,338 Times in 2,433 Posts	^ Take out all of their eyes. Except mine, I'm not covetous.

09-23-2011, 12:54 AM	#8
Sim Kid Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: The state of Denial Gender: Posts: 8,884 Thanks: 80 Thanked 198 Times in 122 Posts	Some say that college is just an obstacle because most of the stuff you learn is completely worthless. shrugs That's part of the gimmicks of shows like "Are you smarter than a 5th grader". But then again though, there's a lot of important stuff in school you still learn and is important throughout life. You learn what you're good at. You learn what you like to do. You learn how to interact with people. You learn how to work with people you wouldn't ordinarily seek out. You learn how to manage your time, etc. You can't exactly, well, teach that stuff.