Game Design - Determinism

Kargath · 12-10-2007, 08:06 PM

So I've been thinking about game design recently, and wanted to ask - do you like randomness being in games? Do you prefer total determinism instead?
What I mean is - do you like games where output is totally dependent on your input ... so it becomes a pure test of skill? (Like "N", for example). Or do you not mind randomness perhaps stuffing you up through no fault of your own? (Or saving your arse, for that matter.)

Wyborn · 12-10-2007, 08:15 PM

You'll need to give more specific examples here; I'm no sure hat more than a few gametypes benefit from any real kind of randomness, but you may be talking about a different concept entirely.

Hm. Would the Items vs. No Items argument in Smash Bros. be a good equivalent here?

heh · 12-10-2007, 08:20 PM

hah, N, **** that game, its impossible.

Anyway, Randomness makes games fun! Big Blue Hammers and Pokeballs On Very High > No items Final Destination!. Team Fortress 2 > Counterstrike! Other comparisons!

Kargath · 12-10-2007, 10:53 PM

In a totally deterministic game, you could theoretically input the same button presses at exactly the same time and achieve exactly the same result every time. It means removing random number generators from the gameplay experience, for the most part. The question really applies mostly to competitive games (for a match or for singleplayer high scores). For example - random item drops in a Smash Bros game, or those characters that have a random bonus effect (Luigi, Peach, G&W).

One could argue that a LCG random number generator is actually deterministic too, but it's usually seeded in such a way as to be virtually irreproducable by the user.

Wyborn - that's kinda it, but to get a deterministic game of Smash Bros you'd need to remove Peach, Luigi and some others, as well as playing only on stages that don't have any random elements. (Moving stages are not entirely out - Rainbow Road has no random elements and just operates on a simple timer, whereas Mushroom Kingdom has the random button appearances and Banzai Bills.)
Another example is the difference between say FFTA and Vantage Master 2 - one has chance as a big part of attacks, whereas in Vantage Master the damage is entirely dependent on element type, unit statistics, terrain and position. (VM2 may have randomness in the AI though, I have yet to fully test that one.)

Where is the randomness in TF2?

Wyborn · 12-10-2007, 11:50 PM

Crits in TF2 have an element of randomness to them.

And yes - it seems like randomness would come up in almost any game that uses artificial intelligence.

Ahem.....

No items.
Fox only.
Final Destination.

***Ace Mercury*** · 12-11-2007, 07:25 AM

Well, technically you can game an "artificial intelligence", since most AIs are really simple reflex agents which don't learn anything. Like in Advance Wars, the AI will always target an APC because of whatever bizarre logic tree they have. Of course, programmers can stick a pseudo-random action, which kind of makes it seem more intelligent, sometimes.

Randomness adds a lot to replayability, since it's unlikely the same sequence of events occur again. What I'm thinking about is sh'mups, where enemy placement and bullet patterns may have a random factor to it. By adding randomness, it shifts slightly from a "develop plan and memorize" to a "reaction time and general strategy". Ideally, the game would be designed for the latter. Randomness does have meaningful applications, though, like in strategy games where decisions are realistically based on uncertainty.

It's sort of a dilemma, though, that we crave certainty, but randomness makes things more fun. There's an experiment where rats were given either a lever that always dispensed food when pulled or a lever that randomly dispenses food. The rats given the "always dispense food" lever would learn what it does and pull it whenever it gets hungry. The rats given the "sometimes dispense food" lever would spend all of their waking time puling the lever over and over until they pass out. When they woke up, they'd resume pulling the lever. This is extended by analogy to slot machines, or as I like to refer them as, "Ding! And then you don't get any money"

12-10-2007, 08:06 PM	#1
Kargath et in Arcadia ego Join Date: Jul 2001 Gender: Posts: 8,334 Thanks: 1,226 Thanked 780 Times in 488 Posts	Game Design - Determinism So I've been thinking about game design recently, and wanted to ask - do you like randomness being in games? Do you prefer total determinism instead? What I mean is - do you like games where output is totally dependent on your input ... so it becomes a pure test of skill? (Like "N", for example). Or do you not mind randomness perhaps stuffing you up through no fault of your own? (Or saving your arse, for that matter.)

12-10-2007, 08:15 PM	#2
Wyborn Zelda Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: All over the place Gender: Posts: 12,388 Thanks: 87 Thanked 469 Times in 281 Posts	You'll need to give more specific examples here; I'm no sure hat more than a few gametypes benefit from any real kind of randomness, but you may be talking about a different concept entirely. Hm. Would the Items vs. No Items argument in Smash Bros. be a good equivalent here?

12-10-2007, 08:20 PM	#3
heh Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: lo-ca-tion; Noun- 1. a place or situation occupied: That house is in a fine location Gender: Posts: 9,849 Thanks: 710 Thanked 955 Times in 628 Posts	hah, N, **** that game, its impossible. Anyway, Randomness makes games fun! Big Blue Hammers and Pokeballs On Very High > No items Final Destination!. Team Fortress 2 > Counterstrike! Other comparisons!

12-10-2007, 10:53 PM	#4
Kargath et in Arcadia ego Join Date: Jul 2001 Gender: Posts: 8,334 Thanks: 1,226 Thanked 780 Times in 488 Posts	In a totally deterministic game, you could theoretically input the same button presses at exactly the same time and achieve exactly the same result every time. It means removing random number generators from the gameplay experience, for the most part. The question really applies mostly to competitive games (for a match or for singleplayer high scores). For example - random item drops in a Smash Bros game, or those characters that have a random bonus effect (Luigi, Peach, G&W). One could argue that a LCG random number generator is actually deterministic too, but it's usually seeded in such a way as to be virtually irreproducable by the user. Wyborn - that's kinda it, but to get a deterministic game of Smash Bros you'd need to remove Peach, Luigi and some others, as well as playing only on stages that don't have any random elements. (Moving stages are not entirely out - Rainbow Road has no random elements and just operates on a simple timer, whereas Mushroom Kingdom has the random button appearances and Banzai Bills.) Another example is the difference between say FFTA and Vantage Master 2 - one has chance as a big part of attacks, whereas in Vantage Master the damage is entirely dependent on element type, unit statistics, terrain and position. (VM2 may have randomness in the AI though, I have yet to fully test that one.) Where is the randomness in TF2?

12-10-2007, 11:50 PM	#5
Wyborn Zelda Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: All over the place Gender: Posts: 12,388 Thanks: 87 Thanked 469 Times in 281 Posts	Crits in TF2 have an element of randomness to them. And yes - it seems like randomness would come up in almost any game that uses artificial intelligence. Ahem..... No items. Fox only. Final Destination.

12-11-2007, 07:25 AM	#6
*Ace Mercury* Marshmallow Knight ☆ Supermod Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Southern Ontario Gender: Posts: 23,275 Thanks: 568 Thanked 3,297 Times in 1,582 Posts Blog Entries: 1	Well, technically you can game an "artificial intelligence", since most AIs are really simple reflex agents which don't learn anything. Like in Advance Wars, the AI will always target an APC because of whatever bizarre logic tree they have. Of course, programmers can stick a pseudo-random action, which kind of makes it seem more intelligent, sometimes. Randomness adds a lot to replayability, since it's unlikely the same sequence of events occur again. What I'm thinking about is sh'mups, where enemy placement and bullet patterns may have a random factor to it. By adding randomness, it shifts slightly from a "develop plan and memorize" to a "reaction time and general strategy". Ideally, the game would be designed for the latter. Randomness does have meaningful applications, though, like in strategy games where decisions are realistically based on uncertainty. It's sort of a dilemma, though, that we crave certainty, but randomness makes things more fun. There's an experiment where rats were given either a lever that always dispensed food when pulled or a lever that randomly dispenses food. The rats given the "always dispense food" lever would learn what it does and pull it whenever it gets hungry. The rats given the "sometimes dispense food" lever would spend all of their waking time puling the lever over and over until they pass out. When they woke up, they'd resume pulling the lever. This is extended by analogy to slot machines, or as I like to refer them as, "Ding! And then you don't get any money"