Video game characters and their religions

[DRW]

O.k., it might be a strange question, but: What would you say are the religions of the various Nintendo characters? Can this be specified at all?

[I am nobody]

Most are polytheistic and are never given a name. Isn't really possible to say much more than that.

[DRW]

Are you sure? Well, I'm pretty sure that Simon Belmont for example is a Catholic. Kid Icarus has the Greek religion. Link from the NES "Zelda" is a Christian too, while the Links from the other games are indeed polytheistic pagans.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

Wait. Link was Christian? I don't know where you get that from.

[DRW]

Where I got that from? Well, it's all in the game itself.
I know that this is surprising and it's definitely not true for the later games that established the story of the three goddesses. But for the NES games: Yes, Link was definitely a Christian and Hyrule was a Christian surrounding. You can find my explanation here below the comic. While it is true that the cross on his shield and the cross on the gravestones could be mere coincidences (even "Kid Icarus" has crosses on the gravestones), the final screenshot is the undoubtable proof that I didn't just read too much into it, but that it was a definite decision by the game designers.

So, what's with the Prince of Persia? Is he a Muslim or can we assume that he lives in pre-Islamic Persia? Same question goes for the characters from "Doki Doki Panic".

[Booyakasha]

The most recent 'Prince of Persia' revolves around the conflict between Ormazd and Ahriman (the Zoroastrian deities of good and evil, respectively). Islam doesn't come into the picture at all. I can't speak for any of the other games in the series.

[Cosmonautical]

Originally Posted by DRW

the final screenshot is the undoubtable proof that I didn't just read too much into it, but that it was a definite decision by the game designers

That's not really proof of anything save that Nintendo of America hadn't enacted their "no religious symbols" policy, yet.

The cross actually predates Christian use, and many dispute its origin (especially the Celtic cross - it is quite possibly a direct adaptation of a Druidic symbol of the time. Other adaptations of the cross that some claim to be Christian, such as the Chi Ro Cross as created by Constantine, were not necessarily created merely for Christian purposes. This site, for instance, declares that Constantine was a sun worshiper. The author also observes that there are no instances of the crucifixion of Christ in Christian art until the 7th century AD. Whether or not that is an indication of the state of artistic progress and culture up until 700 AD isn't really an assumption I'll make either way.

Regardless if the Christian use of the cross as a religious symbol was original or not, it was not and is not solely a Christian symbol.

And really, considering it was made by the Japanese, you can pretty much assume they were just observing that medieval western culture was obsessed with slapping crosses on everything. The book that comic uses as a bible is actually a spell book in the game, anyway. Not a very Christian theme.

[DRW]

Originally Posted by SPACE STALIN LASER FIST

That's not really proof of anything save that Nintendo of America hadn't enacted their "no religious symbols" policy, yet.

The cross actually predates Christian use

As I said, the cross itself is not the definite proof, just a clue.

The proof is this:

Originally Posted by SPACE STALIN LASER FIST

The book that comic uses as a bible is actually a spell book in the game, anyway. Not a very Christian theme.

The link was, in this context, not about the comic, but about what is written below it. And there I said that the magic book is supposed to be a bible in the Japanese original:


If the Japanese programmers got it right with Christianity's "no magic allowed" is another question, but the intention of them was definitely: "This is a Christian hero", not "This is a goddesses worshipper."

There's also another game where the western world never knew that they played with a Christian:

[Cosmonautical]

Bible  –noun
1. the collection of sacred writings of the Christian religion, comprising the Old and New Testaments.
2. Also called Hebrew Scriptures. the collection of sacred writings of the Jewish religion: known to Christians as the Old Testament.
3. (often lowercase) the sacred writings of any religion.
4. (lowercase) any book, reference work, periodical, etc., accepted as authoritative, informative, or reliable: He regarded that particular bird book as the birdwatchers' bible.

— ORIGIN Greek biblion ‘book’.

Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Medieval Latin biblia, from Greek, plural of biblion book, diminutive of byblos papyrus, book, from Byblos, ancient Phoenician city from which papyrus was exported

That word has more than one meaning. Literally, bible means book. It would have to say Christian Bible to directly mean the Christian Bible.

[DRW]

O.k., let's look at your statements and your quote.

Bible –noun 1. the collection of sacred writings of the Christian religion, comprising the Old and New Testaments. 2. Also called Hebrew Scriptures. the collection of sacred writings of the Jewish religion: known to Christians as the Old Testament.

O.k., no further explanation needed here.

3. (often lowercase) the sacred writings of any religion.

Well, that's just because the word bible in this case is an allusion to the Christian Bible. When I say: "The Quran is the bible of the Muslims", then I'm actually saying: "The Quran is for the Muslims what the Bible is for the Christians." It's like saying: "The NES is the Rolls Royce of the video game consoles": This is a comparison. It doesn't mean that "Rolls Royce" is literally a generic word for "classic and valuable". Same with the Bible: Because the Bible is the most famous book in the world and because it is a religious book, being the basis for Christianity, other sacred books are sometimes called bible as well to emphasize their relevance since everybody knows what the Bible stands for. But that doesn't mean that the Quran can literally be called a bible, as well as the NES is not literally a Rolls Royce.

4. (lowercase) any book, reference work, periodical, etc., accepted as authoritative, informative, or reliable: He regarded that particular bird book as the birdwatchers' bible.

Same here: This is a reference to the Christian Bible, saying that the bird book has the same importance for birdwatchers as the Bible has for Christians. But it still isn't supposed to mean that the bird book is literally any kind of bible. "Sonic is the Mario of Sega." Does that mean that "Mario" is a generic term for "mascot" instead of a proper name?

Originally Posted by SPACE STALIN LASER FIST

That word has more than one meaning. Literally, bible means book.

But only in the Greek language. Biblios = Books. But in our languages there is a concrete difference between book and bible. The word "pope" also literally means "father". But is it now justified to call any generic father "pope"? If there was a videogame where you can visit a person called "The Pope", would you then say: "No, this has no connection with Catholicism. This person is just meant to be the father of somebody"? Or another example: The word "Führer" in German simply means "leader". But if an English speaking person talks about the Führer, he definitely means Hitler, not a simple leader of anything. Otherwise he wouldn't deliberately use the German word. Except he wants to establish a link to Hitler, like in: "Who's Mussolini? Mussolini can be seen as the "Führer" of fascist Italy." Sure, Bible means books. But only in Greek, and only the word "biblios" (spoken "bee-blee-os"), not the English version "Bible" ("by-bell"). And if a non-Greek talks about a bible, he either means the Bible or he uses a stylistic device to compare the importance of a book to the importance of the Bible. It is not, however, usual to say things like: "Well, you know, yesterday I read a bible about seafaring." You can't really tell me that a book with a big fat cross on it (in the arworks) that is called "Bible" in the Japanese original is not really meant to be the Bible. I mean, if they didn't intend it to be the Bible, why didn't they call it magic book right from the beginning?

Originally Posted by SPACE STALIN LASER FIST

It would have to say Christian Bible to directly mean the Christian Bible.

Oh sure, and next time we say "the Catholic Pope" to not confuse him with any other pope/father. And we should also not say "United States" anymore, but always the full name "United States of America". Otherwise we could confuse it with the European Union which is also a group of states that are united in a way. If you just say "bible", there's no connection to the Bible whatsoever. Only if it is explicitly stated that the Christian Bible is meant, people realize that you're not talking about a generic book.

[Booyakasha]

It's possible the Japanese creators of the game just used 'bible' in the same way that people in America use 'karate' to denote any martial art, whatever its country of origin. Sort of a generic catch-all term for an uncommon artifact from a non-native culture. In any event, the book wasn't referred to as a bible in any English-speaking version of the game, and, unless there's some 'slaughtering the infidels' subtext to LoZ's monster-kicking, I can't see any particularly Christian rhetoric in the game.

[DRW]

Originally Posted by Booyakasha

It's possible the Japanese creators of the game just used 'bible' in the same way that people in America use 'karate' to denote any martial art, whatever its country of origin. Sort of a generic catch-all term for an uncommon artifact from a non-native culture.

Or we just accept the obvious: Cross on the shield, crosses on the gravestones (the same objects that bear crosses in real life, but there are no crosses in the game where they wouldn't fit in reality) and a cross on the book that is called Bible. --> Christian hero.
Why trying to jump through loop-holes to explain it away? I mean, you don't try to reject that Kid Icarus is a follower of the antic Greek religion, do you?

Originally Posted by Booyakasha

In any event, the book wasn't referred to as a bible in any English-speaking version of the game

Because Nintendo of America had its no religion policy. The US version of "Castlevania III", unlike the Japanese version, doesn't refer to the Pope either, but would you say now that Trevor Belmont is not a Catholic because of that?

Originally Posted by Booyakasha

and, unless there's some 'slaughtering the infidels' subtext to LoZ's monster-kicking, I can't see any particularly Christian rhetoric in the game.

I never said that the game has a Christian theme or is Christian-oriented. It just happens to have a Christian hero and the people in Hyrule are probably Christians too. The second part even has a church:


What's so unrealistic about the claim of Link being a Christian? The mythology of Hyrule was not established until the third game and just in that game they stopped using the crosses and the Bible. And with "Castlevania" and "Faxanadu" we have two more games with religious heroes although the games themselves have no religious themes. So, are the Catholic allusions in "Castlevania" or the crucifix in "Faxanadu" also just coincidences and meant to be generic symbols and have no relation to actual Christianity?

[Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds]

Wow, man. Get a new hobby. The cross is not Christian-specific, the word bible is pretty commonly used to refer to a book of extensive knowledge (without even taking into account the Japanese's history of weird/poor translations), and finally, what does it really matter? Seriously, you're getting worked up because we accept that the cross does not automatically mean Link himself is a practicing Christian?

[Cosmonautical]

No one said it was absurd to suggest Link's original heritage or background was intended to be Christian. I simply said it's not directly indicated in the game. As in, you have evidence that makes it likely, but it is not proven. Considering that the word "bible" was actually taken out of the English version of the game altogether, one must assume then that your ambiguous evidence of a book labelled bible is only present in the Japanese game.

Pit in Kid Icarus is an altogether different situation. He is a cherub. Cherubs are part of traditional Greek mythology. He would have to disbelieve himself. It would be akin to suggesting Christ as the main character of the game is not of a Christian faith.

But the real principle behind this: Link never worships any Christian deities. He practices magic. A more likely suggestion is that there is a Christian over-tone present in his world, but he is not Christian in any appearance save for dealing with possibly Christian artifacts. I own a silver cross. I have owned a bible. I have been present during Church services. I daily speak to a Catholic father present at my place of employment. I find him amiable. I am not a believer in Christ, and am not Christian.

[Deku Trii]

Originally Posted by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds

Wow, man. Get a new hobby. The cross is not Christian-specific, the word bible is pretty commonly used to refer to a book of extensive knowledge (without even taking into account the Japanese's history of weird/poor translations), and finally, what does it really matter? Seriously, you're getting worked up because we accept that the cross does not automatically mean Link himself is a practicing Christian?

I know! SERIOUS BUSINESS, mirite?

[DRW]

Originally Posted by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds

Wow, man. Get a new hobby.

Would you say that to the people who write about the religions of comic book heroes too? If yes, why are you actually posting in such a forum? If you think writing about it is not worth the time or anything, why talking about games at all? And why don't you complain about the people trying to disprove me here? Shouldn't they get another hobby too?

Originally Posted by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds

The cross is not Christian-specific

But it's the most common connection that is drawn. Seriously, you don't want to tell me that the designers had the Celtic cross in mind.

Originally Posted by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds

the word bible is pretty commonly used to refer to a book of extensive knowledge

Not really, no. Only when trying to make a connection to the importance of the Bible. (When was the last time you have seen a lexicon for example that calls itself bible?)

Originally Posted by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds

(without even taking into account the Japanese's history of weird/poor translations)

Oh, sure. Now it's a translation error again. Forget that the Japanese signs add up to the word Bible itself.

Originally Posted by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds

and finally, what does it really matter?

It's always amusing seeing people discussing as hard as they can and simultaneously complaining why the original poster discusses back. If it doesn't matter, why do you answer then? To tell me it doesn't matter? Why do you bring further arguments then?

Originally Posted by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds

Seriously, you're getting worked up because we accept that the cross does not automatically mean Link himself is a practicing Christian?

It's not the cross that "automatically" makes him a Christian. It's the combination of all the things: Crosses in places where they don't appear in the later games anymore (since there the hero is not Christian anymore). Plus the Bible which also has a cross on it.
Seriously, you're getting worked up because I accept that the cross and the Bible are not mere generic symbols, but concretely indicate Link himself is a practicing Christian?
How come you never question Kid Icarus's definite connection with Greek mythology? Is it because you have no problem with it, but with Link you simply don't want him to be a Christian because that would screw the whole later canon?

[Cosmonautical]

Pit from Kid Icarus can go ahead and be a worshipping Christian if he wants, bud, as long as he believes in his own existence and the gorgon he slays in his story.

I don't know if you remember the context of the magic book in Zelda, but I don't recall too many instances of Christian scepters being used to cast Christian spells of fire recorded in the Christian bible.

If you want him to be a Christ worshipper, you're going to have to conjure up an image of him worshipping Christ.

[Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds]

why are you actually posting in such a forum

Hi, I'm the Admin. Nice to meet you.

Let me rephrase: what does it even matter if Link is Christian or not? The discussion itself is fine, but why is it so important to you? You're not exactly convincing any of us to change our mind- we've actually played these games ourselves and seen the crosses (not uncommon in the era of time which the game is set).

I don't especially care what religion he may or may not follow (I'm hard pressed to believe the creators even bothered to put that much thought into a character that doesn't even speak).

As for Kid Icarus, I gotta tell you, I don't think Pit actually worships anything. His own connection to Greek mythology comes more from the fact that he is directly inspired by the actual myth of Icarus who flew out of the minotaur's labyrinth with wing made of wax, only to have them melt and he fell and died in the sea. Many, or even most of the other elements within the game aren't especially related to Greek mythology (or the portrayal in-game makes such a mess of the stories, you might as well call them original). Ttly diff rite?

I think "canon" is a pile of bull****, too.

[DRW]

Originally Posted by SPACE STALIN LASER FIST

No one said it was absurd to suggest Link's original heritage or background was intended to be Christian.

Well, to me this looks different. Whenever I mention this topic, people react as if I had said the most absurd statement ever. As if I had labeled the hero of "Battle of Olympus" a Christian hero.

Originally Posted by SPACE STALIN LASER FIST

Considering that the word "bible" was actually taken out of the English version of the game altogether, one must assume then that your ambiguous evidence of a book labelled bible is only present in the Japanese game.

Yes, but only because Nintendo censored most religious connections. And about "only present in the Japanese game": Well, it's still the original version. Balrog is also called M. Bison "only" in the Japanese version of "Street Fighter II", but since this is the original version, we know that he is an allusion to Mike Tyson.

Originally Posted by SPACE STALIN LASER FIST

Pit in Kid Icarus is an altogether different situation. He is a cherub. Cherubs are part of traditional Greek mythology.

And of Jewish and Christian faith. We don't accept him being part of the Greek religion because he is an angel (if this was the only indication, he could as well be an Angel of God), but because the whole game suggests the Greek religion.

Originally Posted by SPACE STALIN LASER FIST

But the real principle behind this: Link never worships any Christian deities.

And he never goes to the toilet. I mean, where should he do it? We see him in his adventure. There are no scenes of his everyday life, so when should he worhip God in-game? We don't see Simon Belmont worshipping God either. Or the "Faxanadu" guy. Because we see one adventure of him that took place during the course of a day. And then later a second adventure.

Originally Posted by SPACE STALIN LASER FIST

He practices magic.

Yes, not all Christians do the right thing.

Originally Posted by SPACE STALIN LASER FIST

A more likely suggestion is that there is a Christian over-tone present in his world, but he is not Christian in any appearance save for dealing with possibly Christian artifacts.

So, you think that, while living in a Christian country where the royal family probably is Christian too, Link himself is a pagan? Hm, interesting theory.

Originally Posted by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds

Let me rephrase: what does it even matter if Link is Christian or not?

It doesn't matter per se, especially not for me who is an atheist. But in the context of a forum discussion about the religion of video game characters, it matters as much as the question what melody "Super Mario Bros." you like best inside a discussion about melodies from "Super Mario Bros."

Originally Posted by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds

You're not exactly convincing any of us to change our mind- we've actually played these games ourselves and seen the crosses

Yes, but most of the people probably never saw the Bible reference.

Originally Posted by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds

His own connection to Greek mythology comes more from the fact that he is directly inspired by the actual myth of Icarus who flew out of the minotaur's labyrinth with wing made of wax, only to have them melt and he fell and died in the sea. Many, or even most of the other elements within the game aren't especially related to Greek mythology (or the portrayal in-game makes such a mess of the stories, you might as well call them original). Ttly diff rite?

Well, I actually do think that "Kid Icarus" is directly based on Greek mythology, not only on Icarus (who has no relation to the game at all except for the name). Even Zeus himself appears.

[ZeldaGirl]

Yes, but only because Nintendo censored most religious connections. And about "only present in the Japanese game": Well, it's still the original version. Balrog is also called M. Bison "only" in the Japanese version of "Street Fighter II", but since this is the original version, we know that he is an allusion to Mike Tyson.

They never actually intended for it to be a purposeful allusion - they just didn't want to get sued for using the his likeness. Slightly different.

You know, DRW, I could go into this whole debate with you more, but I'm not even going to bother; I've seen you around before, and you seem to enjoy arguing for the sake of argument. About everything. So, I'm not going to bother wasting my time, because you aren't looking for actual discussion, you're just goading people into answering you so that you can argue back.

Hi, I'm the Admin. Nice to meet you.

I love you, ESSDEE.