Final Fantasy 7

[Wyborn]

Yes, obviously storytelling predates FF7, I'm talking about how FF7 shoved it to the forefront of the industry, something never really noticed by the mainstream before. FF7 changed the way people viewed storytelling in gaming, which is just as much as or even more important.

[Prince Phaeral]

Well, this is probably the worst-kept secret in history, but Final Fantasy 7 is one of my favorite games of all time. Not to mention, I am the most hardcore Sephiroth fanboy you will ever meet.

But, I will fully admit to this: The game is completely overhyped. I wish with all my heart that it wasn't so mainstream. I remember playing it when it first came out, and now everyone thinks they're a fan because of Advent Children. I die a little inside everytime I see yaoi fangirl artwork of Seph/Cloud/Vincent/Whoever the hell they decide to mangle. I hate the hype. I hate the majority of the fans. But Sephiroth will always be my favorite villian ever, FF7 will always be one of my favorite games ever, and so on.

I will not jump anyone who disagrees with me that it's a fabulous game. I will not debate or argue over it, either. It's just my opinion that I plan on standing by.

[Lurch1982]

Like the fanboys for FF are any worse than the Zelda fanboys? Or the Mario fanboys? Or the Halo fanboys? Or the Goldeneye fanboys? Or the MDK2 fangirl?

I wouldn't go as far as to say FFVII is "God's gift to gaming," but FFVII is in the top three from the PSX/N64 days and probably top 5 from the 1990s.

Maybe its because you're 10 years late to the party. Maybe its because you ran up the stairs instead of going through the building. But when I was first playing FFVII the week after it hit, it was damned mindblowing. Say what you want about the long, drawn out summons or the over the top spell animations, we had never seen that. If you cast something in FFIV/VI, you got some flickering sprite that might move and make a pop sound effect. The first time I cast Bahamut (let alone Neo or Bahamut Zero or Knights of the Round), my reaction (and anyone else's at the time) was "HOLY ****."

You know what Sephiroth had over Kefka? A FMV cutscreen that consisted of this:

It's a little easier to get presence across when you're dealing with more than 2D sprites. Say what you want about how FF7 essentially jumpstarted the over the top epic trend, the progression made in the ability of games to fully convey stories and elicit emotion through better animation is worth it.

CSM, you've got some serious issues if you don't think FF7 is a milestone for gaming. Perhaps more than anything it did in terms of graphics or presentation, FF7 was one of the first RPG games released in the States that expanded the RPG market from a niche-only market to a wide variety of people. Without FF7, the gaming market would have likely remained how it was prior to that...with RPGs getting very limited releases outside of Japan if they got releases at all.

I'm with Wyborn...this doesn't seem like the right forum for this topic.

As an overall game, even with the plot issues (especially towards the end), I'd still give FF7 a 90%+ rating (as I would have when it was released in 1997)and put it as the pinnacle of the FF series. FF8 sucked, 9 was worse, 10 was annoying (as was 10^2), 11 is a waste of money in a genre with enough problems as it is, and I haven't played 12, nor do I have any inclination to do so.

CSM - what golden age? The SNES/Genesis? That was a piss-poor age with a handful of good titles and massive gaps of crap and nothing. That was an age where I stopped heavily playing games for half of it because the releases were all mediocre copies of each other. The good titles were really good, and it was probably the last time anyone saw a solid Sonic the Hedgehog title, but the industry was really lacking. The present day is better than anything I've ever seen, especially since we're getting more solid A+ titles in one year than we would see in almost an entire generation, like the one you called a "Golden Age."

Am I a Final Fantasy fanboy? Hell no. I think the tie-ins for 7 they've been shoveling out are up there with Cellphone game-o-the-weeks. Advent Children was a waste of precious time that I'll never get back.

I've seen better plots in games, better villains, better stories, better use of tech, better storytelling, etc since FF7 hit in 97. I probably wouldn't put it in my top 10 alltime list. But even through that, FF7 is still a solid game in multiple ways because it changed the way developers handled stories and the type of games that gamers wanted to play.

[ZeldaGirl]

I'll move this to the RPG forum, if that's alright with Codie.

For the record, I loved Vincent for some reason. But, Cid is awesomesauce as well.

And I pretty much agree with Lurch and Wyborn, in terms of everything else.

[Codiekitty]

I posted this in NC because I always use that forum to throw out my random thoughts on a game I just finished, but whatever.


Where are these lemmings going? Not the Super Nintendo Super Shire! They know to go to Codiekitty.com now!

[Wyborn]

Barret is coo'.

The worst part of Advent Children (really) is how they turned him into Mister T. He needed to swear more. And worry about his baby girl.

[Crazyswordsman]

Originally Posted by Lurch1982

Like the fanboys for FF are any worse than the Zelda fanboys? Or the Mario fanboys? Or the Halo fanboys? Or the Goldeneye fanboys? Or the MDK2 fangirl?

I rarely buy Mario games. I rarely buy Zelda games. I NEVER buy Halo games. Goldeneye was just one game. And MDK2 sucks.

I wouldn't go as far as to say FFVII is "God's gift to gaming," but FFVII is in the top three from the PSX/N64 days and probably top 5 from the 1990s.

FFIX was better. Legend of Dragoon was better. OoT was better. 007 was better. Chrono Cross was better. DK64 was better. Perfect Dark was better. FF Tactics was better. Vagrant Story was better. Hell, even Tony Hawk was better.

Maybe its because you're 10 years late to the party. Maybe its because you ran up the stairs instead of going through the building. But when I was first playing FFVII the week after it hit, it was damned mindblowing. Say what you want about the long, drawn out summons or the over the top spell animations, we had never seen that. If you cast something in FFIV/VI, you got some flickering sprite that might move and make a pop sound effect. The first time I cast Bahamut (let alone Neo or Bahamut Zero or Knights of the Round), my reaction (and anyone else's at the time) was "HOLY ****."

Graphics don't make a game. Break a game, maybe.

You know what Sephiroth had over Kefka? A FMV cutscreen that consisted of this:

It's a little easier to get presence across when you're dealing with more than 2D sprites. Say what you want about how FF7 essentially jumpstarted the over the top epic trend, the progression made in the ability of games to fully convey stories and elicit emotion through better animation is worth it.

See my comment above. I play GAMES, not interactive CG movies.

CSM, you've got some serious issues if you don't think FF7 is a milestone for gaming. Perhaps more than anything it did in terms of graphics or presentation, FF7 was one of the first RPG games released in the States that expanded the RPG market from a niche-only market to a wide variety of people. Without FF7, the gaming market would have likely remained how it was prior to that...with RPGs getting very limited releases outside of Japan if they got releases at all.

I liked the game. Hell until all those sequels came out I had nothing but praise for it. But the sequels and the fanboys and the fact that people were more excited about Advent Children than FFXII had me thinking that the series I knew as Final Fantasy was dead to me. I swore I'd never buy any of them.

I'm with Wyborn...this doesn't seem like the right forum for this topic.

Welcome to the NC forum.

As an overall game, even with the plot issues (especially towards the end), I'd still give FF7 a 90%+ rating (as I would have when it was released in 1997)and put it as the pinnacle of the FF series. FF8 sucked, 9 was worse, 10 was annoying (as was 10^2), 11 is a waste of money in a genre with enough problems as it is, and I haven't played 12, nor do I have any inclination to do so.

9 and 12 were both fantastic games. Now you have the right to disagree, but I must say that I loved them. Even 10 was good. Hell if it weren't for the God-awful voice acting and story that was a complete ripoff of BoFII, it would've been one of my favorites.

CSM - what golden age? The SNES/Genesis?

Yes.

That was a piss-poor age with a handful of good titles and massive gaps of crap and nothing. That was an age where I stopped heavily playing games for half of it because the releases were all mediocre copies of each other. The good titles were really good, and it was probably the last time anyone saw a solid Sonic the Hedgehog title, but the industry was really lacking. The present day is better than anything I've ever seen, especially since we're getting more solid A+ titles in one year than we would see in almost an entire generation, like the one you called a "Golden Age."

And now, CSM presents a long list of kickass SNES titles:
-Chrono Trigger
-Final Fantasy VI
-Final Fantasy IV
-Final Fantasy V
-Earthbound
-Breath of Fire
-Breath of Fire II
-Lufia and the Fortress of Doom
-Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals
-Donkey Kong Country
-Donkey Kong Country 2
-Donkey Kong Country 3
-Kirby Super Star
-Super Mario World
-Super Mario World 2: Six Golden Coins
-Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars
-Secret of Mana (yes, Jay, I actually liked it)
-Star Fox
-The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
-Super Metroid
-Killer Instinct

Am I a Final Fantasy fanboy? Hell no. I think the tie-ins for 7 they've been shoveling out are up there with Cellphone game-o-the-weeks. Advent Children was a waste of precious time that I'll never get back.

There's something we can all agree on.

I've seen better plots in games, better villains, better stories, better use of tech, better storytelling, etc since FF7 hit in 97. I probably wouldn't put it in my top 10 alltime list. But even through that, FF7 is still a solid game in multiple ways because it changed the way developers handled stories and the type of games that gamers wanted to play.

It's definitely a solid game, but a game's greatness can be hurt in my book if it gets a spinoff movie that draws more attention (positive or negative, it doesn't matter) than another, very original and fun, game in the series. The only reason I bash FF7 is because of its hordes and hordes of fans. To be honest, FFX was a worse game, but you never hear me bash it. You hear me praise it a lot. FF7 was also dissappointing for the same reasons Chrono Cross was.

-CSM

[Lurch1982]

Originally Posted by Crazyswordsman

FFIX was better. Legend of Dragoon was better. OoT was better. 007 was better. Chrono Cross was better. DK64 was better. Perfect Dark was better. FF Tactics was better. Vagrant Story was better. Hell, even Tony Hawk was better.

Ok, let's go down the list here. Out of the ones you put here, I have TOoT in the top 3 from that stretch. The others? Well let's look.

Legend of the Dragoon came out 3 years after FF7, and incorporated many of the elements pioneered by the game (ie: storytelling via cutscreens, spell animations, etc). Same with Chrono Cross. Same with Vagrant Story. You're looking at games (two of which from Square) that cribbed the standard FFVII set in terms of presentation, graphics, and overall style. The major thing is, if FFVII doesn't prove there's a viable and massive RPG-buying North American market, Sony doesn't fund Legend of the Dragoon and Square likely doesn't bring the other two to US shores.

DK64 was good, but not nearly as influential and was practically a massive skin-job of Mario 64. Might be a top 5 N64 title though.

Perfect Dark wasn't even in the top 10 of its genre of the time. The framerates on that game were sluggish and so horrific that the game gets to points where it borders on unplayable. It feels like you're trying to drive on four flat tires while drunk while some superpowered jackass slows down time. In that same generational stretch, you saw Goldeneye (N64), which is arguably one of the best console-only shooters ever made, the original Turok, which was better than PD, and then you shift to the PC (which by and large are better than any of the console shooters) where you're looking at Quake II, Quake III: Arena, Unreal Tourny, and--the undisputed best of the genre--Half Life.

And Tony Hawk? WTF?

What you're essentially saying is that Star Wars isn't good because every blockbuster movie that came after it had better special effects, plots, and overall products. Or...putting it in a gaming analogy, the original Mario Brothers isn't as good because Mario 3 and 4 are vastly superior examples of its genre.

Graphics don't make a game. Break a game, maybe.

If this were the case, we'd still be on the level of pong or pac-man. Anyone that says graphics don't matter is a boldfaced liar. Graphics are often the first or second excuse as to why a game is good or bad. If you had Gears of War with stick figures, would you still play it? Hell no. There's a point, especially when you leave the puzzle genre, where graphics actually do begin to matter and to say otherwise is simply incorrect.

See my comment above. I play GAMES, not interactive CG movies.

I didn't bring Dragon's Lair into this. FF7 was nowhere near an interactive CG movie, though Metal Gear Solid 2 could make a case. Granted, Shenmue's a better example, and regardless, both of those came in the next generation anyway. There's a huge difference between using CG cut screens to advance the plot and assist storytelling and Dragon's Lair (an actual interactive CG movie).

I liked the game. Hell until all those sequels came out I had nothing but praise for it. But the sequels and the fanboys and the fact that people were more excited about Advent Children than FFXII had me thinking that the series I knew as Final Fantasy was dead to me. I swore I'd never buy any of them.

I liked Star Wars until episodes I, II, and III came out and urinated all over the franchise. Even in the stench of Lucas' bumbling--the horrific script, stupid plot, and general piss-poor handling of a mythos that Lucas lost control of decades ago--I'm not going to downplay the impact that Star Wars had on the movie industry. Same goes for Nintendo every time they make a stupid move or release another party game instead of developing a new franchise or long awaited sequel.

Originally Posted by And now, Lurch comments on CSM's long list of SNES titles:

-Chrono Trigger: ok
-Final Fantasy VI: good
-Final Fantasy IV: good
-Final Fantasy V: NOT RELEASED IN THE STATES.
-Earthbound: Didn't sell at all, hence no sequel in the States
-Breath of Fire: Ok
-Breath of Fire II: Ok
-Lufia and the Fortress of Doom: ok
-Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals: Ok
-Donkey Kong Country: good
-Donkey Kong Country 2: meh
-Donkey Kong Country 3: bad
-Kirby Super Star: No.
-Super Mario World: Yes
-Super Mario World 2: Six Golden Coins: That's two separate games. Do you mean Yoshi's Island (SNES, sucked), or Six Golden Coins (GB, average)?
-Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars: good
-Secret of Mana (yes, Jay, I actually liked it): good
-Star Fox: good
-The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past: Good
-Super Metroid: Good
-Killer Instinct: Above average, not as good as other fighters out there

Thing with your list: if you added up the total sales (ie: reach to gamers) of every RPG you listed, it might slightly edge out FF7's total sales. To date, FF7 remains the top game in the franchise in terms of sales, and the amount of good it did in expanding the RPG gaming audience is the biggest contribution the game had on the gaming industry.

It's the same reason why Half-Life 1 is considered probably the best shooter in the history of the genre. It changed the way companies made games, expanded the audience, and influenced the genre for the next decade.

And as much as you can say that's a "Golden Age," all of the RPGs you listed (with the exception of the Secret of Mana) are all basic reskins of the same basic top-down thing. Some are more exceptional than others, but it doesn't change the fact that the sheer amount of RPG gamers out there was much smaller and the things they're doing now with the genre, be it FFXII or something like Oblivion, are by and large deeper and overall better experiences than anything out for the SNES/Genesis.

[Crazyswordsman]

Lurch, Lurch, Lurch. You're saying I have bad taste in games because I'm a fan of games that don't sell. Well guess what? That's my perogative, just like it's your perogative to like games that do sell.

And, you're saying that I have a bad taste in games because I like cheesy top-down graphics. While FFVII had better graphics than FFVI and Chrono Trigger, it didn't push its system to its limits the way FFVI and CT did. FFVI and CT proved that you could incorporate 3D elements, albeit minimal ones, into a 16 bit system. All FFVII did was the same thing in 3D with FMVs, which is something I'm not a fan of.

Play Lufia II, Lurch, and you'll see how different it is from any game you've ever played. I'd like to see you try and beat the Ancient Cave. -CSM

[Sim Kid]

It's the same reason why Half-Life 1 is considered probably the best shooter in the history of the genre. It changed the way companies made games, expanded the audience, and influenced the genre for the next decade.

Half-Life not only did that, but it is actually better than at least 90% of FPS games until Half-Life 2 and Halo 2 because they were all Half-Life clones, or the exact same stuff you played years ago.

...and many FPS games are still like that today.


I will not deny that Final Fantasy 7 was a very influential game and that it made the "J-RPG"/Interactive Movie RPG genre much more popular in America, but what really makes this game seem bad is the amounts of Final Fantasy 7 hippies running around the web.


I personally think that Square-Enix should have stopped with Advent Children, or at least have done it better. Near the end, you could OBVIOUSLY tell that the director thought "OH CRAP! I forgot to put all the characters in!" so they shoveled them all in at once against that monster, so aside from Vincent and Tifa, who actually DO stuff in the story, everyone else just sits back and watch like the obligatory filler-anime character.

They really need to call off the spin-offs...Really Square, it's an influential game with a fanbase big enough to rival a small religion, but enough is enough.



Also, I am going to be cruficied for saying this, but

Kefka and Dhaos > Sephiroth
Yuffie > Aeris and Tifa.

[Crazyswordsman]

Yeah. You guys need to understand that I'd have no beef with this game besides it's natural dissapointments if there weren't the hordes of fans on the internet. I'm the WEBMASTER of the FINAL FANTASY WIKI, so I deal with this crap a lot. -CSM

[ZeldaGirl]

^
^

There is no way in hell Yuffie is superior to Tifa. Aeris, maybe. Tifa, no.

[Lurch1982]

Originally Posted by Crazyswordsman

Lurch, Lurch, Lurch. You're saying I have bad taste in games because I'm a fan of games that don't sell. Well guess what? That's my perogative, just like it's your perogative to like games that do sell.

And, you're saying that I have a bad taste in games because I like cheesy top-down graphics. While FFVII had better graphics than FFVI and Chrono Trigger, it didn't push its system to its limits the way FFVI and CT did. FFVI and CT proved that you could incorporate 3D elements, albeit minimal ones, into a 16 bit system. All FFVII did was the same thing in 3D with FMVs, which is something I'm not a fan of.

Play Lufia II, Lurch, and you'll see how different it is from any game you've ever played. I'd like to see you try and beat the Ancient Cave. -CSM

That's not really the point. The illustration is that FFVII is a top game because it sold more than the entire genre combined the prior generation.

That and considering that your "golden age" really sucks, especially in the face of what came in the next two generations. Games have been hands down getting better with each generation.

I played and beat Lufia 2 on a rental. Same with Earthbound, Secret of Mana, and Lufia 1, and pretty much the rest of the RPGs you listed except the FF ones.

The overarching point is that calling FF7 overrated in any respect isn't really true, especially when you consider how the damned game changed the way things were done and the effects are STILL TO THIS DAY reverberating.

[Crazyswordsman]

Something isn't good because it sold well, Lurch. The Star Wars prequel trilogy sold a hell of a lot, that doesn't mean it's any good. -CSM

[Lurch1982]

Again, not the point. FF7 was good because it was the first console RPG to completely change the presentation, force-shifted the genre towards 3d and a more epic scale, and changed the entire perception of JRPGs that hit the market for the next generation while broadening the appeal of JRPGs making them into a top selling genre when they were previously niche. FF7 isn't like Madden in the sense that it just sells because of the name, but it did push the franchise into that territory because the game was solid and changed the entire concept of how to make an effective and good RPG.

[Sim Kid]

Originally Posted by ZeldaGirl

There is no way in hell Yuffie is superior to Tifa. Aeris, maybe. Tifa, no.

Battle-wise, I found Yuffie to be a more useful attacker than Tifa, especially once she gets the Conformer. She's ranged so she attacks from the back row, and giving her Slash All and 2x cut is VERY useful.

Yuffie is also useful against the Weapons. Gauntlet ignores defense.

The only thing that could have been better is if All Creation hit more than once.


But if you like Tifa enough to allow her to outclass our little Materia thief, go for it.

[Rainbow Dash]

Why was this moved from NC? Codie always posts game topics in there.

[Prince Phaeral]

So much hatin'. Advent Children happens to be one of my favorite movies. Hey, I know I'm a newb, I know I don't have much say anywhere on this board, but damn. Guys, it's just a game/movie. There's no reason to go on for endless pages on whether it sucks or not. I've had people ridicule me for liking Seph. It doesn't make me feel good, but having people judge me for it isn't going to make me suddenly start hating him. I hate Naruto with all my heart, but I'm not going to jump into an epic debate and try to change fans opinions with any of the reasoning I have. Forgive me if this is not what's going on in this thread, but that's the impression that I have.

In any case, I'd go Mpreg for Sephiroth. And much more.

[Ace Mercury]

I think this thread is one of the better discussions in a while. You know how your mom said not to say anything if you can only think about bad things to say? Well, that's (mostly) bad for online discussion boards and activity in general, as long as you're not trashing any particular person.

[Crazyswordsman]

If you want to know why I bash FF7 so much, this is pretty much THE reason, and the ONLY reason, why I do it (this wasn't directed at me, mind you, it was directed at someone who actually hates the game):

Originally Posted by 200.120.118.218

you are just saying that a game you didn't like is bad and i can say to you that you are the only one person in all the world who doesn't like FFVII

1º: a really great plot 2º: really cool characters 3º: first 3D FF game 4: first FF for playstation. in resume, this game is a master piece of all final fantasy

Now let's analyze this a bit:

you are just saying that a game you didn't like is bad and i can say to you that you are the only one person in all the world who doesn't like FFVII

Believe it or not, most of the FF Wiki editors hate FFVII. And I mean they REALLY hate it. Most of the editors like the Ivalice games best.

1º: a really great plot

The whole plot at the beginning with the Shinra vs. AVALANCHE was probably my favorite plot out of ANY Final Fantasy. But Seph ruined the whole damn thing.

2º: really cool characters

Barret, Cid, Tifa, and the Shinra staff. That's about it. Almost every game except FFVIII had at least one more special person.

3º: first 3D FF game

And how is a 3D game automatically better than a 2D game? Someone answer this question.

4: first FF for playstation.

And that means what? The Super NES is better than Sony systems will EVER be. Someone please tell me why this is a reason a game can be better. -CSM