The ideal system of education

Princess Zelda of Hyrule · 06-17-2004, 08:47 PM

Is our current education system working? (Pffft. Don't make me laugh.)

I'm not sure which country does this. Probably Germany. But they have a system in which, at a certain point in a student's life, he can go in three different directions, depending on how well he's done so far: Remedial classes, a trade, or a college prep-type curriculum sort of like ours. In some ways, that would downright suck. But when I think about it, it might actually be a pretty good idea. Sure, in our current system, we have a bit more freedom to make mistakes and try again. But we do need help.

Flamethrower Mario · 06-19-2004, 02:27 AM

http://www.wtp.org/archive/transcrip...lor_gatto.html
That's a very informative read.

Perrin Aybara · 06-19-2004, 03:54 PM

Public education worked fine for me. Maybe the rest of you are just slow.-jay

Wyborn · 06-20-2004, 03:36 AM

All I know is I'm a freaking genius.

Eagle Eye · 06-20-2004, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Perrin Aybara:
Public education worked fine for me. Maybe the rest of you are just slow.-jay

AJ Middleton · 06-20-2004, 03:46 PM

The system leaves too many out. Yeah, it worked for me too, but so many brilliant kids get caught up in the flaws of the it and go to waste. And thanks to how objective it all is, they are seen as total failures. Not cool.

Generally, education follows the same set pattern for 13 years. Oh, I'm sorry, somewhere around 6th and 7th grades the students start to switch classes. Yeah, that gets old after the first month. It's all too rigid. Especially here, in NY, the teachers have to teach to tests. And APs are even worse. There is no room for any deviation, and those who just can't learn in a standard classroom setting are done.

So, here's my idea. All big stupid tests should be a lot more flexible. There should be hands-on and objective parts to each, and grading should be more complex to allow for different learning styles. Also, they should all be structured like the IBs, where a series of projects over the years count as parts of the test, and a simple hour exam is given later (ideally in June.)

School itself should be more free. You shouldn't have to come if you don't want to. If you get the material and you'd be better off doing something else for that block of time, you should have that option. Schedules should be tailored to the student ASAP. I'm a believer of keeping options open (which is why I scoff at those who say, "Why do I have to take x class! I want to be y!"), but honestly now, if you want to be an actor and you're REALLY good at it, how does it make sense that you might not graduate due to physics?

So yeah, that's my rant.

Toad556 · 06-20-2004, 03:49 PM

Nothings bothered me yet, but there may be something in the future, only thing I'm pissed about, is that they keep making the year longer.

ZeldaGirl · 06-20-2004, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wyborn:
All I know is I'm a freaking genius.

You and me both... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Quote:

You shouldn't have to come if you don't want to.

[img]graemlins/lol.gif[/img]

And suddenly, attendence in schools dramatically decline. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

AJ Middleton · 06-20-2004, 03:52 PM

^But in the ideal state, everyone would come a majority of the time because it would interest them.

ocarinagirl · 06-20-2004, 04:02 PM

I think schools need to exercise the right side of the brain as much as the left. And by this, I mean with classes that aren't electives.

Look at all the left-brain classes that are required, for God's sake: English, Math, Science..hell, even History is taught in a very linear fashion. I think at least Art Fundamentals should be required. After that, as Bolt said, you should be free to choose what class you want after that.

I also agree with Bolt on the more free and open class style too. That sounds gweat. [img]smile.gif[/img]

There should also be...I dunno...a daydream period of the day. Like naptime in kindergarten, only you just sit there and space out for about an hour. I know that it could easily be done at home, but...it would be nice if schools would allow that. It's good for you. Lets your mind play. That'd be so awesome.

Flamethrower Mario · 06-20-2004, 08:26 PM

Anyone read the interview I linked? It's super awesome.

KirbyKing · 06-20-2004, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Bolt:
Schedules should be tailored to the student ASAP. I'm a believer of keeping options open (which is why I scoff at those who say, "Why do I have to take x class! I want to be y!"), but honestly now, if you want to be an actor and you're REALLY good at it, how does it make sense that you might not graduate due to physics?

Definitely. If I want to take 8 classes, I better damn well be able to take 8 classes. Who cares if there are only 7 periods?

Um, yeah, that's my problem next year. Gonna have to stick BC Calculus somewhere... Perhaps if I didn't eat lunch... [img]graemlins/lol.gif[/img]

Parrakarry · 06-20-2004, 10:54 PM

There are a ton of kids at my school who are smart... and yet, none of them are recognized as such... it's so stupid. I think school should be optional, too... if you don't wanna go, that's your problem, not the taxpayer's.

Ditto McCloaker · 06-21-2004, 12:41 AM

Quote:

^But in the ideal state, everyone would come a majority of the time because it would interest them.

And in the ideal state, workers will give according to their ability, get according to their need, and share with one another by benevolence, without the crushing oversight of government! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Part of the reason for school is to keep the little buggers occupied through the day. They darn well better attend their classes, even if they 'get it.' (never did like those kids who said they were 'too smart' to have to sit through class. Arrogant smart-alecs who simply had better short-term memories than me...)

I think every American student should have a good grounding in fairly sophisticated mathematics, natural sciences, literacy, history, geography, law, and skills such as cooking, driving, computer proficiency, etc. It's not too much to ask that they come out reading at a 12th Grade level and be able to do more than basic algebra. Yes, even if you can act.

History needs to be less memorization of facts, dates and names and more... you know... history. And English does NOT imply learning useless sutff like "Gerunds" and "Participles." It should be "can you understand this book?" Math should be more slower-paced, and less memorization. I hate rote memorization of anything. Nobody learns like that.

And I like the idea of national standards, and don't fear teachers 'teaching to the tests.' The teacher can do it however they like, but their students are expected to learn the material. They don't have to score hundreds, but no one graduates til all their tests are above a certain level. How high they go above that determines where their talents and interests lie. And if the student is a 'poor test taker?' That's fine. There are ways to help them there, too. Overcoming fear of challenges is among the most useful of life skills.

Teacher's pay and benefits will be tied to their success rates, but will be given some freedom as to how to accomplish it. However, students can of course register complaints about unruly or unfair behavior. It will be incumbent on teachers to behave respectably. Threats are so low-brow.

The teaching of foreign languages (and customs and cultures) should begin early, and continue throughout the educational cycle. Every American student can be expected to have mastered two or more languages by the time they graduate high school. This is of immense importance in the upcoming global economy, and will be of tremendous advantage to us. It's also some of the best stimulation for young minds.

Also get a fairly good grounding in American values, such as our electoral system, Capitalism, civility, good manners...

It is not the school's job to teach religious doctrine, nor will any part of it's curriculum be changed to include theories tied to religious doctrine. We have churches for a reason, people. Open prayer would be allowed, but not required. Writing in a science textbook that evolution is a one theory is not an endorsement of such theory. Heck, we can even teach that physicists once theorized the existence of ether. It's just theory. I mean, GOD people.

Physical education should be intended to make ya healthy and agile. Calisthenics, aerobics, rock-climbing, sports, non-competitive activities, possibly martial arts... Also, lunches should ideally be healthy, yet also high-quality. Who says we can't have lobster or steak or shrimp now and again? Salads?

Also, strict rule enforcement. Zero tolerance for bullying, or even being disrespectful to other students or teachers. There will be boot camps for frequent offenders, with military men shouting at them and handing out arse-whompins 24/7.

Maybe there's something to be said for what they do in Harry Potter: Divide the students up into 'Houses' and let them compete for honors. Give them points for successes, decrease for things like improper grammar, rule-breaking, etc.

IQ tests will be used as they were originally intended: As skill tests to determine which cognitive areas students are proficient in, and help them improve the cognitive skills they lack in. It can be done, you know. That's basically what Sylvan Learning Center does, and it WORKS. And none of this "Put them in Genius Programs if they're above a certain single number." IQs are supposed to be indexes of several skills. Where people started 'ranking' students by 'ability' by a single number I'll never know, but gladly end. It's almost like some repulsive form of elitism.

Also, I'm sick of drab schools that look like... well... government institutions. Like prisons. I want to see fancy wall-hangings, statues, paneled walls, paintings, columns, Victorian windows... something that makes you PROUD.

And vouchers for anyone who doesn't like my schools. They can go anywhere else they like.

Also, I got nothing against uniforms. Nothing too itchy, but nice. White shirts, ties or scarves, coats, vests, pants, shorts, dresses, whatever. Maybe little school monograms.

All paid for by the state, of course.

...then again, maybe we don't need change in schools. The day America's no longer a major economic superpower is the day I start wondering if our educational system needs work. Til then, hey.

People always tell me about these other schools where these wunderkinds can add up huge numbers in seconds, or this or that junk. But til they're actually making money, instead of boiling stones for soup, come talk to me.

[ June 21, 2004, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: Ditto McCloaker, Nintendo Loyalist ]

Flamethrower Mario · 06-21-2004, 12:48 AM

^But see, for all the physical education, science, math, english and language we've done, the average adult still doesn't understand algebra, still doesn't understand the concept of an atom, is still overweight, can still onlly speak English, and can barely speak it well! It's also interesting to note that before compulsory schooling, we had a higher literacy rate, among other things.

I mean, all that's good in theory, but in practice it has become something very different than what was originally intended.

Quote:

And I like the idea of national standards, and don't fear teachers 'teaching to the tests.'

One of the main problems with national standards is that people don't learn the same way at the same rate. By creating national standards, it's like saying that they do.

[ June 21, 2004, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: The Standing Man ]

Princess Zelda of Hyrule · 06-21-2004, 03:15 PM

Quote:

It is not the school's job to teach religious doctrine, nor will any part of it's curriculum be changed to include theories tied to religious doctrine. We have churches for a reason, people. Open prayer would be allowed, but not required. Writing in a science textbook that evolution is a one theory is not an endorsement of such theory. Heck, we can even teach that physicists once theorized the existence of ether. It's just theory. I mean, GOD people.

What about teaching religion as a historical/artistic/literary influence?

Juliet · 06-21-2004, 03:30 PM

Quote:

There should also be...I dunno...a daydream period of the day. Like naptime in kindergarten, only you just sit there and space out for about an hour. I know that it could easily be done at home, but...it would be nice if schools would allow that. It's good for you. Lets your mind play. That'd be so awesome.

Heh...I do that in all of my classes as it is. Math classes in particular are almost spiritual.

Princess Zelda of Hyrule · 06-21-2004, 06:44 PM

Out-of-body experiences. Heh.

ocarinagirl · 06-21-2004, 09:22 PM

^^ I did that all the time in GRADE SCHOOL, then took all the stuff I didn't do in school home to work on it.

And I still got A's. Heh heh.

Good thing it was a small school and the teacher knew how I worked. Otherwise I'd be on Ritalin...which reminds me...

Smaller classes. So the teachers will know you better. That'd be cool. You'd be like a little community then.

And there should being a thing in P.E where you make up your own sport. That's what we had to do for our freshman class. It kicked ass.

A lot of schools, like mine, have the multiple intelligences system. That means that whenever you have to do a project or something, you try to appeal to at least four or five out of the seven intelligences. It was pretty fun, since you could customize the project and make it cool. It also meant that the teacher had to teach with this system as well, in order to incorporate all of the students in the learning process.

...And...I was gonna say something else but...Oh well, It'll come to me later. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Ditto · 06-22-2004, 01:17 PM

Back in the fifties, they could teach classes with 30-40 students effectively.

But this was back in the days when education sucked with the boring drills and always-close-at-hand discipline. If students were more disciplined today, it could still happen, but til then...

Having helped teach middle-schoolers, I have to say, I think smaller class sizes are definitely a good idea now.

Okay, PZoH. For art and historical purposes, when neccessary. But rememeber, it's not Sunday School.

[ June 22, 2004, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Ditto, Sadly, Not a Boss In SSB:M ]

06-17-2004, 08:47 PM	#1
Princess Zelda of Hyrule Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Hyrule Castle Gender: Posts: 6,128 Thanks: 35 Thanked 14 Times in 10 Posts	Is our current education system working? (Pffft. Don't make me laugh.) I'm not sure which country does this. Probably Germany. But they have a system in which, at a certain point in a student's life, he can go in three different directions, depending on how well he's done so far: Remedial classes, a trade, or a college prep-type curriculum sort of like ours. In some ways, that would downright suck. But when I think about it, it might actually be a pretty good idea. Sure, in our current system, we have a bit more freedom to make mistakes and try again. But we do need help.

06-19-2004, 02:27 AM	#2
Flamethrower Mario Member Join Date: Apr 2000 Posts: 1,977 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	http://www.wtp.org/archive/transcrip...lor_gatto.html That's a very informative read.

06-19-2004, 03:54 PM	#3
Perrin Aybara Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 1999 Location: Alone....so terribly alone... Some... where... out... there... dies Gender: Posts: 12,760 Thanks: 194 Thanked 504 Times in 235 Posts	Public education worked fine for me. Maybe the rest of you are just slow.-jay

06-20-2004, 03:36 AM	#4
Wyborn Zelda Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: All over the place Gender: Posts: 12,388 Thanks: 87 Thanked 469 Times in 281 Posts	All I know is I'm a freaking genius.

06-20-2004, 03:46 PM	#6
AJ Middleton Banned Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 0 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The system leaves too many out. Yeah, it worked for me too, but so many brilliant kids get caught up in the flaws of the it and go to waste. And thanks to how objective it all is, they are seen as total failures. Not cool. Generally, education follows the same set pattern for 13 years. Oh, I'm sorry, somewhere around 6th and 7th grades the students start to switch classes. Yeah, that gets old after the first month. It's all too rigid. Especially here, in NY, the teachers have to teach to tests. And APs are even worse. There is no room for any deviation, and those who just can't learn in a standard classroom setting are done. So, here's my idea. All big stupid tests should be a lot more flexible. There should be hands-on and objective parts to each, and grading should be more complex to allow for different learning styles. Also, they should all be structured like the IBs, where a series of projects over the years count as parts of the test, and a simple hour exam is given later (ideally in June.) School itself should be more free. You shouldn't have to come if you don't want to. If you get the material and you'd be better off doing something else for that block of time, you should have that option. Schedules should be tailored to the student ASAP. I'm a believer of keeping options open (which is why I scoff at those who say, "Why do I have to take x class! I want to be y!"), but honestly now, if you want to be an actor and you're REALLY good at it, how does it make sense that you might not graduate due to physics? So yeah, that's my rant.

06-20-2004, 03:49 PM	#7
Toad556 Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Pffft <insert witty comment here> Gender: Posts: 687 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Nothings bothered me yet, but there may be something in the future, only thing I'm pissed about, is that they keep making the year longer.

06-20-2004, 03:52 PM	#9
AJ Middleton Banned Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 0 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	^But in the ideal state, everyone would come a majority of the time because it would interest them.

06-20-2004, 04:02 PM	#10
ocarinagirl Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Ehhh? What? Where am I?! Gender: Posts: 3,010 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think schools need to exercise the right side of the brain as much as the left. And by this, I mean with classes that aren't electives. Look at all the left-brain classes that are required, for God's sake: English, Math, Science..hell, even History is taught in a very linear fashion. I think at least Art Fundamentals should be required. After that, as Bolt said, you should be free to choose what class you want after that. I also agree with Bolt on the more free and open class style too. That sounds gweat. [img]smile.gif[/img] There should also be...I dunno...a daydream period of the day. Like naptime in kindergarten, only you just sit there and space out for about an hour. I know that it could easily be done at home, but...it would be nice if schools would allow that. It's good for you. Lets your mind play. That'd be so awesome.

06-20-2004, 08:26 PM	#11
Flamethrower Mario Member Join Date: Apr 2000 Posts: 1,977 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Anyone read the interview I linked? It's super awesome.

06-20-2004, 10:54 PM	#13
Parrakarry Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 10,685 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	There are a ton of kids at my school who are smart... and yet, none of them are recognized as such... it's so stupid. I think school should be optional, too... if you don't wanna go, that's your problem, not the taxpayer's.

06-21-2004, 06:44 PM	#18
Princess Zelda of Hyrule Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Hyrule Castle Gender: Posts: 6,128 Thanks: 35 Thanked 14 Times in 10 Posts	Out-of-body experiences. Heh.

06-21-2004, 09:22 PM	#19
ocarinagirl Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Ehhh? What? Where am I?! Gender: Posts: 3,010 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	^^ I did that all the time in GRADE SCHOOL, then took all the stuff I didn't do in school home to work on it. And I still got A's. Heh heh. Good thing it was a small school and the teacher knew how I worked. Otherwise I'd be on Ritalin...which reminds me... Smaller classes. So the teachers will know you better. That'd be cool. You'd be like a little community then. And there should being a thing in P.E where you make up your own sport. That's what we had to do for our freshman class. It kicked ass. A lot of schools, like mine, have the multiple intelligences system. That means that whenever you have to do a project or something, you try to appeal to at least four or five out of the seven intelligences. It was pretty fun, since you could customize the project and make it cool. It also meant that the teacher had to teach with this system as well, in order to incorporate all of the students in the learning process. ...And...I was gonna say something else but...Oh well, It'll come to me later. [img]smile.gif[/img]

06-22-2004, 01:17 PM	#20
Ditto Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Not in SSB:M Posts: 354 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Back in the fifties, they could teach classes with 30-40 students effectively. But this was back in the days when education sucked with the boring drills and always-close-at-hand discipline. If students were more disciplined today, it could still happen, but til then... Having helped teach middle-schoolers, I have to say, I think smaller class sizes are definitely a good idea now. Okay, PZoH. For art and historical purposes, when neccessary. But rememeber, it's not Sunday School. [ June 22, 2004, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Ditto, Sadly, Not a Boss In SSB:M ]