Reggie Bush!?!?!?

[Swordmaster Link]

314, SP doesn't even come here anymore.

[Mark Prior]

whatever, i was banned like 2 years ago, i dont care to be educated on who is/isn't here anyway. if you'll excuse me it's time to verally obliterate shelty again

Originally Posted by shelty87

well, it sounds to me like ur an a**hole who cant have a civilized arguement, and doesnt know how to stop being an a**hole. believe what u want, im sticking w/ my arguement 100%, but i also believe enough of both sides has been presented and neither side is going to budge.

as far as ur so called "fantasy football coverup", heres what i have to say about that:

my original post pertains to fantasy football directly

then later in that same post i mention taking reggie w/ the 1st pick (i meant in fantasy football) is dumb (the same exact word used in the commercial by reggie bush). verifiable proof theres no coverup.

wrong, you mentioned fantasy football in one sentence in that first paragraph. good try though. I've argued in a civilized manner the entire time, the problem is that you're such a dumbass I can't help but call you on it. If this is your "verifiable proof", then I have no choice but to laugh at you. Just admit it, you got systematically eradicated in every aspect of your argument and now you're making weak excuses to try and nullify it. I dunked you, Andre owned you, and Lurch flat out annihilated you to the point of no return. Give up and go back to Madden. Hear the new one comes out soon, you're probably ready to develop a ton of new crackpot theories based on it.

[shelty87]

y is it u persist to say i base everything off madden? plz tell me y u think thats so......y its so obvious thats where i derive all my thoughts. no, it cant possibly b because i think something.....dare i say it....different from u. that would mean u have no thought process at all, and thats not something i believe is capable by a living, breathing human being.

[Mark Prior]

had your thought or whatever been of logical reasoning, I'd have respected it. But since not only was it a shiit thought completely devoid of logic, you tried to backpeddle out of it by using coverups like FANTASY FOOTBALL. You suck. I win. Game OVER.

[shelty87]

wtf, i didnt backpeddle outta anything. i even said i stick w/ my arguement 100% u ignorant a**hole. here, ill even show u where:

well, it sounds to me like ur an a**hole who cant have a civilized arguement, and doesnt know how to stop being an a**hole. believe what u want, im sticking w/ my arguement 100%

besides, theres plenty of logic behind reggie not having a great rookie yr (at least not outside of whats considered great for a rookie).

1) how many rookies in the last decade have even come close to being considered for MVP or Defensive Player of the Year? personally i dont remember any, but for the sake that i might be mistaken, ill say almost none.

2) reggie doesnt exactly have the greatest offensive line in the world. he may have Jammal Brown, but hes still learning (even if he'll be one of the greatest someday). the only other lineman worth mentioning in that group is Matt Stinchcomb, a mediocre lineman in Tampa Bay who looks like a perrenial pro-bowler compared to his supporting cast.

3) hes splitting carries w/ deuce mcallister (a proven, pro-bowl running back). ronnie brown didnt even get to 1,000 yds rushing while splitting w/ ricky williams.......and ricky was suspended for the 1st 4 games!!!!!

4) drew brees. even tho hes coming off surgery, hes still one of the better quarter backs in the nfl, maybe not top 5, but certainly top 10. he'll be hooking up w/ joe horn and donte' stallworth half the time, and as good as horn was w/ a qb like aaron brooks, imagine how much better he'll become w/ brees. after this season, brees might make horn look so good, that id rate him a top 10 wr, instead of where i have him now at around 12-13.

so dont tell me i didnt use any logic, and dont tell me i tried to back out of not using logic. i may not be the best football analyst in the world, hence im not broadcasting on tv, but im nowhere near the worst

[Mark Prior]

just because you say you didn't backpeddle doesn't mean you didn't, fcukstick. It's very seldom that a rookie also wins MVP you dumbass. We've gone over the rest of these points already. N.O. Has had a great offensive line for years, Brees is a far more capable QB than Brooks, Bush is more than just a running back, etc etc etc blah blah blah. I'm not even bothering to repeat all of those points in full because I am tired of you replying with a sht argument and constant backpeddling. This topic is boring and I'm tired of defeating you.

[GURU ANT]

FYI, you did try several times to back out of your original arguement several times. Should you need me too, I'm sure when I have the time, I can find where you did so.

1) how many rookies in the last decade have even come close to being considered for MVP or Defensive Player of the Year? personally i dont remember any, but for the sake that i might be mistaken, ill say almost none.

Well, let's see, I don't beleive anyone said MVP, BUT, I believe that I can find you a good number of rooks who could've been regarded as such.
Let's see:
Cadillac, had he played the whole season, you can be sure he would've owned 95% of the league's RBs
Roethlesberger
Brady, I believe he was a rookie the year he took over, I could be wrong.

2) reggie doesnt exactly have the greatest offensive line in the world. he may have Jammal Brown, but hes still learning (even if he'll be one of the greatest someday). the only other lineman worth mentioning in that group is Matt Stinchcomb, a mediocre lineman in Tampa Bay who looks like a perrenial pro-bowler compared to his supporting cast.

If I remember correctly, Stinchcomb was a big part of that 02 Tampa Line, you know, the one that Brad Johnson took them to the superbowl with?
What separates Reggie from most rookies is that he didn't just beat out college teams and other running backs, he DOMINATED college teams and other running backs, almost single-handedly at times.
And just because it was a preseason game, doesn't mean they weren't trying. If they were half-assing, AT ALL, then I'm sure Coach Fisher would've had their asses afterwards. I don't give a damn if it's preseason, you play the game, period. He shook a starting NFL defense. Plain and simple.

3) hes splitting carries w/ deuce mcallister (a proven, pro-bowl running back). ronnie brown didnt even get to 1,000 yds rushing while splitting w/ ricky williams.......and ricky was suspended for the 1st 4 games!!!!!

Miami couldn't win a damn game at all in the beggining of the season. You know why? Because all that was needed to be done was stop Brown, Gus Frerrote wasn't going to single-handly win any games for them.
On another note, Ronnie Brown is not the back Bush is, Brown is good yes, but Bush is better, if anything, their college careers prove so.

4) drew brees. even tho hes coming off surgery, hes still one of the better quarter backs in the nfl, maybe not top 5, but certainly top 10. he'll be hooking up w/ joe horn and donte' stallworth half the time, and as good as horn was w/ a qb like aaron brooks, imagine how much better he'll become w/ brees. after this season, brees might make horn look so good, that id rate him a top 10 wr, instead of where i have him now at around 12-13.

In all honesty, I'm not expecting Brees to have another great year, he'll be a step up from Brooks, but he won't be a Rich Gannon.

so dont tell me i didnt use any logic, and dont tell me i tried to back out of not using logic. i may not be the best football analyst in the world, hence im not broadcasting on tv, but im nowhere near the worst

Oh you used logic, it wasn't good logic, but you used it.

[shelty87]

Well, let's see, I don't beleive anyone said MVP, BUT, I believe that I can find you a good number of rooks who could've been regarded as such.
Let's see:
Cadillac, had he played the whole season, you can be sure he would've owned 95% of the league's RBs
Roethlesberger
Brady, I believe he was a rookie the year he took over, I could be wrong.

cadillac, tho a great rookie, was nowhere near being considered for mvp, not even if he had played the whole season (which, by the way was only 2 more games). the reason he got injured at all was cuz gruden overran him. if u look at his carries for the 1st three games of his nfl career (aka where he broke out every game), they list as 27, 24, and 37....a total of 88.

as far as big ben, he fell into the deal of the century. a good quarterback w/ a lotta tools gets drafted by a team w/ 1 of the best o-lines, an underrated wr in ward (at the time), and a coach who loved to run the occassional trick play or two.

brady doesnt even come close. i said in the last decade, and u were cuttin it close, cuz he was drafted back in '96, and he took over in '01. btw, the entire reason he even played was because bledsoe got smashed into the sidelines.

If I remember correctly, Stinchcomb was a big part of that 02 Tampa Line, you know, the one that Brad Johnson took them to the superbowl with?
What separates Reggie from most rookies is that he didn't just beat out college teams and other running backs, he DOMINATED college teams and other running backs, almost single-handedly at times.
And just because it was a preseason game, doesn't mean they weren't trying. If they were half-assing, AT ALL, then I'm sure Coach Fisher would've had their asses afterwards. I don't give a damn if it's preseason, you play the game, period. He shook a starting NFL defense. Plain and simple.

if u think that brad johnson and co. led the bucs to the superbowl, then u must have been smokin weed in timbuktu w/ ricky williams that year. i'll list 4 u who led that team to a superbowl: derrick brooks, simeon rice, warren sapp, anthony mcfarland, john lynch, shelton quarles, ronde barber, dwight smith, brian kelly, and dexter jackson. on the offensive side.....mayb mike alstott, keyshawn johnson, and keenan mccardell. just so u know, stinchcomb wasnt even on that squad. he was there from 04-05......thats it.

reggie dominated teams single-handedly??? mayb if he played for kentucky id believe that, but no, he played at usc. u know, where heisman qbs carson palmer and matt leinart went during the reggie bush era. where biletnikoff award-winning talent like mike williams and dwayne jarrett went. where there was even a change-of-pace back to confuse already dumbfounded defenses in lendale white (who had more rushing tds than bush in their college careers).
i wouldnt say he shook a starting nfl defense. as iv stated before, he merely caught the defense shifting momentum. if ud watch the entire play rather than just bush, ud realize that. the only reason bush shifted his so quickly was because he was tip-toeing, trying to find a hole.

Miami couldn't win a damn game at all in the beggining of the season. You know why? Because all that was needed to be done was stop Brown, Gus Frerrote wasn't going to single-handly win any games for them.
On another note, Ronnie Brown is not the back Bush is, Brown is good yes, but Bush is better, if anything, their college careers prove so.

i'll give u that miami started off 3-7 before their 6 game streak, but they beat denver to open the season (a team that proved to be 1 of the best teams in the afc that season), and if u base anything off college career comparisons, u shouldnt be allowed to talk about football. based off college careers, ron dayne should have been much better than sweetness or barry sanders, chris weinke should have been better than dan marino or joe montana, and brian bosworth should have been better than mike singletary or lawrence taylor.

[Mark Prior]

Originally Posted by shelty87

cadillac, tho a great rookie, was nowhere near being considered for mvp, not even if he had played the whole season (which, by the way was only 2 more games). the reason he got injured at all was cuz gruden overran him. if u look at his carries for the 1st three games of his nfl career (aka where he broke out every game), they list as 27, 24, and 37....a total of 88.

sorry, but "he overran him" is an excuse in the ilk of the excuses I hear for Mark Prior and Kerry Wood, that they were "overpitched".

Originally Posted by shelty87

as far as big ben, he fell into the deal of the century. a good quarterback w/ a lotta tools gets drafted by a team w/ 1 of the best o-lines, an underrated wr in ward (at the time), and a coach who loved to run the occassional trick play or two.

Eli Manning had the same. Peyton Manning has had all those for years. Big Ben can play, simple as that.

Originally Posted by shelty87

brady doesnt even come close. i said in the last decade, and u were cuttin it close, cuz he was drafted back in '96, and he took over in '01. btw, the entire reason he even played was because bledsoe got smashed into the sidelines.

Brady takes over. Gets hurt. Bledsoe plays. When both are healthy, Bledsoe sits. Brady wins 3 Super Bowls. Get out.

Originally Posted by shelty87

if u think that brad johnson and co. led the bucs to the superbowl, then u must have been smokin weed in timbuktu w/ ricky williams that year. i'll list 4 u who led that team to a superbowl: derrick brooks, simeon rice, warren sapp, anthony mcfarland, john lynch, shelton quarles, ronde barber, dwight smith, brian kelly, and dexter jackson. on the offensive side.....mayb mike alstott, keyshawn johnson, and keenan mccardell. just so u know, stinchcomb wasnt even on that squad. he was there from 04-05......thats it.

Brad Johnson was no Peyton Manning, but he never made stupid mistakes to cost the Bucs games.

Originally Posted by shelty87

reggie dominated teams single-handedly??? mayb if he played for kentucky id believe that, but no, he played at usc. u know, where heisman qbs carson palmer and matt leinart went during the reggie bush era. where biletnikoff award-winning talent like mike williams and dwayne jarrett went. where there was even a change-of-pace back to confuse already dumbfounded defenses in lendale white (who had more rushing tds than bush in their college careers).
i wouldnt say he shook a starting nfl defense. as iv stated before, he merely caught the defense shifting momentum. if ud watch the entire play rather than just bush, ud realize that. the only reason bush shifted his so quickly was because he was tip-toeing, trying to find a hole.

Yeah, we all know how great Mike Williams was last year. And Leinart is the starter in AZ, right?

Reggie might not have done it single handedly, but I'll be damned if he didn't fcuk up every team he played. I watched the entire play, and it looks to me Reggie turned a pile of sht play into gold. Anyone with half decent common sense can see that. Shut up and stop talking.

Originally Posted by shelty87

if u base anything off college career comparisons, u shouldnt be allowed to talk about football.

If you base anything off Madden, you shouldn't be allowed to talk at all.

[Lurch1982]

Uh, dumbass? Brady was drafted for the 2000 season and started in 2001. If he was drafted in 1996, he'd be in the last stretches of his career as opposed to his prime years.

Using your logic on Big Ben is like me saying Montana is garbage because he was put in a situation with one of the best coaches ever, one of the best recievers ever, a good RB and a good defense. He still has to make the plays. Big Ben, like Brady and Montana, MADE THE PLAYS AND DID NOT SCREW UP. Do you even WATCH football?

You need an offense that can score and doesn't turn the ball over to win a championship: just ask the Bears last year. Brad Johnson has like the third-highest win ratio historically, and is in the same level as Trent Green where he does more and gets less credit than anyone else in the league. Let's look at his throwing stats from the championship year:

Completion percentage: 62.3%
Yards: 3049
TD/INT: 29/6

Defense was good, but they won the Super Bowl because Johnson had the year of his career.

Dumbass, Palmer never won a National Championship at USC or even played while Bush was there. Using your logic, Leinart had it easy because Marcus Allan and OJ Simpson went to USC once. You don't watch college ball much, do you?

Can you read? Reggie Bush's strength is that he's a versitile back that can hit you in four different ways as well as confuse teams by sending him in motion. He's paired in the pros with a pro-bowl powerback that makes White look fat and mediocre. So gee, why wouldn't the guy who hit TWO 2000+ all purpose yard seasons in NCAA duplicate that success in the same situation in the pros. Brees >> Leinart, McAllister >>>>>>> White, and Horn >>>>>>>> anyone USC's had. STFU, GTFO, Go play madden more you nub.

Did you even watch the play? Gee, it was plastered all over Sportscenter for like a week, I'd hope to god you did. He shook an entire defense by making a play that was not there.

based off college careers, ron dayne should have been much better than sweetness or barry sanders, chris weinke should have been better than dan marino or joe montana, and brian bosworth should have been better than mike singletary or lawrence taylor.

If you believed any of this drivel, you are a fcuking idiot. Dayne didn't look like a pro back at any point, Weinke was too damn old, and bosworth simply didn't have the work-ethic that singletary or taylor had.

I don't know why I'm responding, we all know you're going to change your mind when Madden hits and he's like an 87 or something.

[shelty87]

sorry, but "he overran him" is an excuse in the ilk of the excuses I hear for Mark Prior and Kerry Wood, that they were "overpitched".

yes. cadillac was overran. ask any football fan and they can tell u that if they look at the amount of carries he got. thats y after he got injured, gruden realized it, and only gave him more than 23 carries twice (two of only three games, following his 1st 3 "spectacular" games, where he broke 100). as far as prior, no the cubs didnt overpitch him, at least not nowhere near as much as they did wood. prior's injuries were, outside of this year, mostly not even involving his arm as far as the joints are concerned. priors injuries were that of running into marcus giles while advancing from 1st to 2nd on a grounder, and having a lined shot hit him in the elbow, fracturing it. kerry wood is a clearcut case of overpitching, pretty much every injury he's had has been to his shoulder. if it were a case like josh becketts, where he keeps going to the DL......for blisters, id say he wasnt being overpitched.

Eli Manning had the same. Peyton Manning has had all those for years. Big Ben can play, simple as that.

dont even talk. 1st of all the manning family is disgusting when it comes to playing the quarterback position. 2nd, eli didnt come in as a rookie w/ "great" surrounding players like big ben did. eli's best wr was ike hilliard and his next best target was shockey. the only thing eli came into the league w/ was a good rushing game. besides, eli didnt even start half the games cuz the giants were starting kurt warner. apparently u didnt even pay attention to football back when peyton was a rookie. the only names worth mentioning on that '98 team besides manning are: marshall faulk (the only good player in their prime at that time), marvin harrison, marcus pollard, and mike vanderjagt. a few average players (or players who are now considered good, who werent so great cuz of lack of experience, on that '98 colts team) are as follows: bertrand berry, terik glenn, (maybe) jerome pathon, and (maybe) jeff zgonina. both teams, the '04 giants and '98 colts had bad (if not terrible) defenses and not much of a supporting cast outside of outstanding rbs. big ben was not only benefitted from a great supporting offensive cast that was entering its prime, but also 1 of the scariest defenses in the nfl. im not saying big ben isnt talented, but we're not talking present tense. we're talking about their ROOKIE seasons. the only thing big ben did in his rookie year was he went 14-0 as a starter. his td-int ratio wasnt great at 17-11 (not bad, especialy for a rookie, but not great). overall, both mannings are much better than roethlisberger can ever aspire to be.

Brady takes over. Gets hurt. Bledsoe plays. When both are healthy, Bledsoe sits. Brady wins 3 Super Bowls. Get out.

once again u fail to argue the correct topic. no1 said brady sucks, but was the season he took over in '01 his ROOKIE season? NO!!! as much as i hate brady, he is a great qb. btw, by the time bledsoe recovered it was the SUPERBOWL. not only is it difficult to do well off an injury in ur 1st game back, but w/ the added pressure of the superbowl (not to mention the only other time bledsoe got there, he got stomped into the ground by favre's packers, so u know that was running through his mind)!?!?!? the only advantage bledsoe had in that game was that he didnt start, he came in during the middle of the game. the pats saw that they got there w/ brady, so they let brady take over again, then led the team down the field to set up vinatieri for the game-winning kick.

Brad Johnson was no Peyton Manning, but he never made stupid mistakes to cost the Bucs games.

same as brady, no1 said brad johnson sucks. i said he didnt LEAD the bucs to that superbowl win. DEFENSE won that superbowl for them. throughout the regular season, playoffs, and superbowl, it was all defense. it was even a defensive player who got superbowl MVP, and it wasnt even 1 of their biggest names. dexter jackson had 3 ints in that game, just in case u dont remember.

Yeah, we all know how great Mike Williams was last year. And Leinart is the starter in AZ, right?

Reggie might not have done it single handedly, but I'll be damned if he didn't fcuk up every team he played. I watched the entire play, and it looks to me Reggie turned a pile of sht play into gold. Anyone with half decent common sense can see that. Shut up and stop talking.

now u start arguing rookie seasons. bad timing everywhere on ur part, we're back to college performance on this topic.

tell me u thought there were 3 wrs in college football better than mike williams his sophomore season. tell me u thought matt leinart shouldnt be anywhere near heisman discussions....last yr OR in '04 when he won it along w/ the national title (btw, w/out the talent of mike williams). in college, those players were as dominant as reggie bush was. im not saying bush wasnt the most outstanding back in the ncaa, but put urself in the position of every defensive coordinater who saw USC on their schedule. just think, if u defended the pass, u knew they'd throw bush and white in ur face and embarass u there, and if u played the rush, they'd just have palmer and leinart hook up w/ williams, steve smith, and dwayne jarrett. the three teams bush played on were so dominant that in those 3 years, USC shared the title w/ LSU yr 1, won it outright against OU yr 2, then lost in the closing seconds against Texas yr 3.

If you base anything off Madden, you shouldn't be allowed to talk at all.

is that ur arguement yet again? ur nothing but a broken record. u let me know how i base things off madden and i will concede defeat, but since that isnt the case, i dont expect to do so any time soon.

u know what? lets say, hypothetically, i do base my arguement off madden. the main word being HYPOTHETICALLY. if i were to do it, id do it off the ratings system they set up, and not the play calling. so, since the ratings system is based off the NFL players, how they perform, and how consistent they are.......id say its not the worst thing in the world to base something off of, not the best, but not the worst. if madden rated players based off ppl he simply just liked, id see ur point, but no, its based off of greatness. even brady, who doesnt put up great statistical numbers, but is still one of the best qbs, is rated highly in madden (and thats before the new ratings for his recently accomplished "great statistical year").

in lurchs words, "dunk'd".

[shelty87]

well excuse me lurch for screwing up what yr brady was drafted, but that would still make the yr brady took over, his SECOND yr in the nfl. so thank you.

when montana was a rookie in '79, he didnt have the greatest wr of all-time in rice till '85, and he didnt have roger craig till '83. he grew into that role of a great qb, as did rice a great wr, and craig a great rb. the only talent montana had as a rookie was dwight clark and an aged o.j. simpson. so dont even talk to me about that subject, bucause the topic is "as a rookie".

ill give u that johnson had the yr of his career, but if u think their defense didnt win that championship, ur just denying plain old fact. that '02 TB defense was the 2nd greatest defense since the '85 bears (behind the '00 ravens). brad johnson also had that yr because of keyshawn, keenan mccardell, and an underrated joe jurevicious.

excuse me again if i mistook palmers '02 yr to be '03. oh, i was off by soooo much. how can i ever be taken seriously about anything again??? i hope u noticed the intense sarcasm there.

i can see brees --> leinart, a slight stretch, but i can see it, i can definately see white --> mcallister, but horn --> "any1 usc's had" is way out of focus. the thing wasnt that usc just had mike williams that 1st yr, but they also had steve smith all 3, and for the last 2 seasons dwayne jarrett. during bush's career at usc, there have always been 2 good wrs. thats something new orleans cant say. another thing is that bush also had, at the least, a good offensive line.....if not great. he doesnt have that in new orleans either.

if u watched college football, ud know dayne looked like an exceptional back who could take over games while he attended wisconsin. he didnt look like it once he hit the pros, but he did at wisc. when weinke hit the pros he was about 28....the prime of an nfl qbs career, especially a pocket passer like weinke. obviously 28 is old for a rookie, but how old was (probly some1 u like a lot lurch) michael lewis when he was a rookie and started tearing up punt and kick returns after driving big rigs around the country for yrs??? what was it.....30?? as far as bosworth, he was touted as the next coming of dick butkus, that is until he got ran over by bo jackson on monday night football.
his horrible work-ethic started once he hit the pros, before that he was insane. so dont talk to me about that subject.

[Lurch1982]

Don't even talk baseball to me or 314, you're going to get bitchsmacked.
Prior's injuries are not arm related, they've been "back, oblique, tendons, and other" issues. Translation: Prior's a headcase. He hasn't looked the same in the bigs since the Bartman inning. His current struggles go down to poor management. Dusty left him in too long in the Bartman game (should have been yanked after the incident or the wild pitch right after). Dusty put him as the ace of the staff too young. Dusty brought him back this year and dropped him against the Tigers. Sure, his minor league outing before that was amazing, but the AAA affiliate of the Nationals are nowhere near the same status as the Detroit Tigers in a hitting park. Generally, Dusty also is unresponsive to a younger player. Some of this does get dumped on Rothschild. For some reason, he's afraid of throwing a breaking pitch in the bigs. He's getting hammered because he's only using his fastball and changeup most of the time.

Wood is a totally different case. His troubles weren't from being overpitched: his troubles are from an arm that's been reconstructed three times already. There's only so many times you can knife someone open and repair a tendon until you simply cannot pitch as effectively anymore. Wood's seen his speeds drop from triple-digits to upper-80s, low-90s. For a pitcher that's concentrated on overpowering, that's not good. His fastball becomes average, and his changeup becomes extremely hittable.

You don't know jack about baseball, don't even try. Shut up.

How good do you think Peyton Manning would be if he weren't around Harrison his entire career. He would have washed if he were drafted by a dump-team like, say, the Browns (sorry Shyguy). Do you think Eli Manning would have been anywhere near as effective if he weren't on NY with their 5+ recieving options? If they go to any team that isn't set up, Eli and Peyton wind up like their dad: a decent QB on a horrible team that loses constantly.

marshall faulk (the only good player in their prime at that time), marvin harrison, marcus pollard, and mike vanderjagt.

Holy fcuking shiit, you defeated your own argument.

04 Giants: Tiki Barber, Toomer, Hilliard, Shockey. Tiki didn't break out yet, but all four were legitimate receiving options.

STFU.

throughout the regular season, playoffs, and superbowl, it was all defense.

WRONG. The bucs, prior to that season, had a top three defense but never made it to the Super Bowl. The problem was the offense either didn't score or made stupid mistakes. Johnson was efficient, managed the game perfectly, and did not turn the ball over. Defense only gets you so far, you need an offense that doesn't make mistakes to win.

even brady, who doesnt put up great statistical numbers,

WTF are you talking about you asshammer? He throws over 60% and has a 2:1 TD/INT ratio, not to mention over 3500 yards in 4 out of 5 years.

Second year is totally different from what you said, which was SIXTH YEAR.

Refer to above on Tampa and stfu.

Yeah, it does make a huge difference since Palmer didn't play with the National Championship squads, nor did he have the same players.

Brees >>>> Leinart because Brees starts, plays, and made the probowl twice. Leinart just signed and is nowhere near ready. McAllister is a proven pro-level back, White is a rookie that's started two fights in training camp, got suspended, and had his draft stock plummit because he refused to work out and got out of shape between the championship game and the draft day. Yeah, they really compare. As for Horn vs any WR USC has, its a totally different game to dominate pro-level defenses. Mike Williams hasn't done sh1t in the NFL, whereas Joe Horn made the probowl.

Dayne still didn't look like a pro-level back that would dominate his position. In the right system, he could have been a good piece, but he never looked like he was amazing. There's roughly a year or two development period for an NFL QB, which would put Weinke at 30+ by the time he should "break out." Too old, dumb pick. Returning punts is a totally different situation. Michael Lewis had to worry about two things: catching the ball and running it to the other end of the field. Weinke had to learn an entire playbook, learn how to play at an NFL level, and run an entire team.

his horrible work-ethic started once he hit the pros, before that he was insane. so dont talk to me about that subject.

Stop beating your own arguments.

[shelty87]

no, i dont know baseball at all. ur right on the spot about that 1......considering iv only been around the game all my life and play every position (including pitcher) except SS, 2B, and CF. Dumbass......dont assume what u know nothing about.

u even argued the same point i presented when it came to prior. i said his injuries have not been from being "overpitched". maybe if ud read instead of thinking i know nothing, u could argue a valid point.

now, y do u think wood needed all that reconstructive surgery??? he just needed it, his arm magically became f'cked up. no, he was overpitched and his arm couldnt stand all the torment it was being put through. throwing a baseball is the most unnormal thing a human can possibly do, it twists and wraps the muscles and tendons around ur bones, squeezing them and adding enourmous pressure. that kind of act can only be done so many times in such a long period of time. if a person goes over the limit by as much as wood went over by, ur bound to go under the knife 3 times and have ur speeds drop from 98-99 to 90-91.

lurch, u fail to talk about the subject at hand, u compare the players surrounding bush in new orleans to the players surrounding him at usc, yet u compare the two different sides, both based on the nfl. if anything, base the pro players surrounding bush by their pro careers, and the college players surrounding bush by their college careers. that would make at least a little more sense. duh, mcallister is twice the back white is, but in college white was very comparable to mcallister. in college, leinart was on a higher level than brees was in the pros. leinart was easily the best qb in college. sure, there were arguements about vince young and jay cutler (that r still going on), but leinart was the best for 2 yrs, not just 1. so yes, i see the brees comparison as a stretch, considering peyton, palmer, and brady would all be taken before brees by any team in the nfl, making him (at the least) the 4th best qb.

i'll admit u have a talent for twisting words and phrases, and picking out parts of an arguement to make the other person look like they dont know what they're talking about. the problem is u have to look at the entire arguement, and the point on topic. something iv noticed u tend not to do.

[Lurch1982]

You missed the point on Prior's injuries, so let me put the main point in a big giant quotebox so you can attempt to read it:

Prior's a headcase. He hasn't looked the same in the bigs since the Bartman inning. His current struggles go down to poor management.

Wood's arm was injured before he left high school. He's had a very long history of arm troubles, and he's lost a slight step after every medical procedure. Again, he's not being overpitched, his arm is falling apart.

the problem is u have to look at the entire arguement, and the point on topic. something iv noticed u tend not to do.

Nobody can do that with you because nobody can do the following:
1.) Understand half the fragments you type
2.) Keep track of how many times you reverse your argument and backpeddle
3.) You have yet to make a point that has not been demolished.

[shelty87]

if u cant understand the fragments, how is it u respond to them so well??? its not the most difficult thing in the world to read.

i have yet to retract or backpeddle out of any statement iv made. sure, i may have made a couple mistakes (i.e. when brady was drafted & what yr palmer won the heisman and entered the nfl), but who doesnt make the occassional mistake? all my statements i stick w/, and if u see 2 comments iv made that completely contradict each other, plz point them out (be sure to view the entire comment).

u say every arguement i present has benn demolished. wrong. only the arguements u actually respond to seem that way. 1) because u fail to pay attention to everything i say and 2) because u pick out words and phrases and twist them around. to find an example of an arguement u didnt "demolish" u'd have to go as far back as......oh, look at that, my previous post:

u compare the players surrounding bush in new orleans to the players surrounding him at usc, yet u compare the two different sides, both based on the nfl. if anything, base the pro players surrounding bush by their pro careers, and the college players surrounding bush by their college careers. that would make at least a little more sense. duh, mcallister is twice the back white is, but in college white was very comparable to mcallister. in college, leinart was on a higher level than brees was in the pros. leinart was easily the best qb in college. sure, there were arguements about vince young and jay cutler (that r still going on), but leinart was the best for 2 yrs, not just 1. so yes, i see the brees comparison as a stretch, considering peyton, palmer, and brady would all be taken before brees by any team in the nfl, making him (at the least) the 4th best qb.

[Lurch1982]

if u cant understand the fragments, how is it u respond to them so well???

Gee, you just said I don't.....

its not the most difficult thing in the world to read.

Numerous people have voiced complaints, so yeah, it is pretty difficult to figure out wtf you're talking about.

I have yet to retract or backpeddle out of any statement iv made.

"OMG TIHS SI ABUOT FANTASY FOOTBAELL!11" Fcuking liar.

That argument was demolished by its irrelivance.

Everything you've said in this thread has been destroyed by myself, 314, and Andre. It doesn't matter if its statistical, factual, strategic, speculative or even random trivia, you have yet to make a point that sticks and passes any sort of scrutinity. You fail. GTFO.

[GURU ANT]

Wow you're an inconsistant little bastard aren't you?

It's okay to admit you've been proved wrong, you're doing nothin but makin yourself look stupid. If need be though, I'm sure I could go back and find several statements where you screwed yourself over.

[Mark Prior]

he knows that dumbassery is his only way of garnering attention. it's the only logical reason he is still posting in this topic. it's almost funny.

[Auron]

I have to admit, I don't even read his arguements. They're that bad.