Vick's 2nd chance exposes society's double standard

Glux · 08-15-2009, 02:08 PM

Drew Sharp: Michael Vick's 2nd chance exposes society's double standard | Detroit Free Press | Freep.com

I like this Drew Sharp guy.

Eagle Eye · 08-15-2009, 04:15 PM

Basically what I got from that is that he (like everyone else) doesn't like what VIck did, but he doesnt' think he should get a second chance.

Leonard Little killed a man, came back, and no one said ish. I don't expect any protests upon Stallworth's return in 2010. I didn't see outcries against Ricky Manning Jr for his wife beating (I apologize to Vasher for confusing those two), Ray Caruth? Yeah thought so.

This was the man's ONLY run in with the law, why do people forget that? They call him a thug, etc, but he had never been arrested up until that point.

Yet you have plenty of other thugs in the league bother them. The man has served his time, leave him alone.

If you want a "double standard" in society, go check out Martha Stewart's situation..

**Crazyswordsman** · 08-17-2009, 01:44 PM

^^I agreed with you until I spoke with my brother, who basically agrees with Andre. Although I disagree with the NFL reinstating him, there are some things to consider here. First, what was the maximum penalty Vick could face? If he served that, and you don't think it's enough (I personally think dogfighting should get at least 10 years), then it's the problem with the law, not with Michael Vick.

Plus, Donte Stallworth committed what is essentially murder (I think you can charge a drunk driving related homicide as a murder) and should carry at least 20 years in jail; he's getting a month and the NFL isn't doing a thing. But a lot of people who kill pedestrians are getting off easy, so then again, the problem there lies with law enforcement not doing their part to punish road ragers.

There are lots of thugs getting off easy in this world. You can't play favorites with criminals. -CSM

ZeldaGirl · 08-17-2009, 01:53 PM

^^ & ^

The article is saying that people shouldn't be given those chances just because they happen to be athletes; people should be standing up and saying 'no, you don't deserve these million dollar contracts and be let off much easier than others in society just because you play a sport.' It's using Vick as the only example, but I imagine the rest is applicable to all those you mentioned.

I'm not saying I agree in either case, just highlighting point that you seemed to miss.

(Though, I say the guy does have a good argument - when it comes to the rich and the famous, there's no justice ever, it seems.)

**Crazyswordsman** · 08-17-2009, 02:09 PM

^Donte Stallworth actually got MORE time than most people do in these cases. Most pedestrian-killers get let off the hook entirely. I still don't agree with what they're doing to Stallworth, I'm just saying it's more the system's fault than any individual's. Our system is wrapped up in the drug and immigrant wars that things like this are getting overlooked. -CSM

Eagle Eye · 08-17-2009, 09:06 PM

I think if you do a crime, you should do what you deserve. Once those two years are up, you should be able to return to your profession.

His profession happens to make millions of dollars, it's what he's good at. If a real estate agent who makes .5 million per house gets caught smuggling dope and someone happens to give a second change, so be it. There are people who've done WAY more heinous crimes than Vick, go AFTER THEM, people seem to forget Leonard Little had the same situation as Stallworth a couple years back. Ricky Manning Jr. was arrested several times for domestic abuse (which IMO is way worse than dogfighting, but that's my opinion), Jamal Lewis was caught as the middle man in several deals, no one has said a damn word since his return.

If you want to talk about double standards, maybe we should look a little closer instead of coming down on the "top" players.

And people also forget that Vick never had any legal problems before this incident, yet they label him a "thug".

Bomby · 08-17-2009, 09:24 PM

What Michael Vick did is more heinous than some of you are giving it credit for. Dogs are not humans, but how are they any less deserving of life? These are living, breathing, conscious beings. Though they may not have as complex intelligence as we have, they are surely able to feel the pain that we do. Michael Vick had them fighting against each other, and he tortured and killed them. There is (or was) very much an anti-social psychology going on that allowed him to carry out these acts, which in my opinion is far scarier than someone shooting and killing a man in a burst of rage.

That being said, I do believe that people can change their ways, and I do believe in giving second chances. But it feels a bit too soon to me.

Glux · 08-17-2009, 09:30 PM

Guys! He's only using Vick as an example because it's one of the most recent.
This article isn't against the man himself.

**Crazyswordsman** · 08-17-2009, 10:23 PM

^^I support wholeheartedly everything Robert Byrd said in his passionate speech to the senate. But the fact remains if Michael Vick served the maximum sentence for his crime at the time, then that's what the law says he can do. If you don't like it, and let me tell you I don't like it, we can change the law and maybe things can get accomplished.

Also, I never liked Drew Sharp anyway. -CSM

Glux · 08-17-2009, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazyswordsman

^^I support wholeheartedly everything Robert Byrd said in his passionate speech to the senate. But the fact remains if Michael Vick served the maximum sentence for his crime at the time, then that's what the law says he can do. If you don't like it, and let me tell you I don't like it, we can change the law and maybe things can get accomplished.

Also, I never liked Drew Sharp anyway. -CSM

It's not the amount of time he did. It's the fact that if you or I was caught doing what he was doing and went to jail, chances are the job you or I had at the time would be gone and not given back when we got out. That's the fact that he's looking at in this article.

Bomby · 08-17-2009, 10:43 PM

We hijacked your thread and took it in our own direction. Sorry. These things happen sometimes.

**Crazyswordsman** · 08-17-2009, 10:49 PM

^^This is off on a tangent a little, but I'd like you to read this. This guy is in a similar situation as Michael Vick, although the crime he's being accused of (which I believe he's innocent of) is causing him to lose contracts. I'm not comparing dogfighting to pushing a car away in self-defense (in fact the former is bad and the latter is good), but your life shouldn't be ruined because you're on trial for something. -CSM

Glux · 08-17-2009, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazyswordsman

^^This is off on a tangent a little, but I'd like you to read this. This guy is in a similar situation as Michael Vick, although the crime he's being accused of (which I believe he's innocent of) is causing him to lose contracts. I'm not comparing dogfighting to pushing a car away in self-defense (in fact the former is bad and the latter is good), but your life shouldn't be ruined because you're on trial for something. -CSM

I understand this, and I agree, but unfortunately it does happen to us "little people", and not to (most) athletes.

Eagle Eye · 08-18-2009, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bomby

What Michael Vick did is more heinous than some of you are giving it credit for. Dogs are not humans, but how are they any less deserving of life? These are living, breathing, conscious beings. Though they may not have as complex intelligence as we have, they are surely able to feel the pain that we do. Michael Vick had them fighting against each other, and he tortured and killed them. There is (or was) very much an anti-social psychology going on that allowed him to carry out these acts, which in my opinion is far scarier than someone shooting and killing a man in a burst of rage.

That being said, I do believe that people can change their ways, and I do believe in giving second chances. But it feels a bit too soon to me.

As heinous as it is, people are making it as if he was this criminal mastermind.

Understand where he grew up, that was the norm, it isn't right, but it was the norm, so it's just like how you or me grow up and see people doing this or that in our neighborhood. Not to say he was completely innocent, he knew it was illegal, that's why it's obviously kept secret, but everyone's making him out to be this fiend.

Sorry, I love dogs, as I am a dog-owner myself, I value their lives, but I don't value their life over the life of a human being, that's just me. IMO, re-circulating drugs within the community is worse than dogfighting (again, my opinion, I noticed that drugs have ruined lives around me), beating your wife is a worse offense to me, leaving a man paralyzed for the rest of his life (Pacman) or endangering lives by driving drunk behind the wheel.

Again, this is my opinion. Big deal? Yes, the most heinous crime ever committed? Not even close.

He served his time in prison, it's over.

Bomby · 08-18-2009, 12:55 AM

It has little to do with being a dog lover. This is my own brand of no-nonsense morality.

As a human, I relate more to humans. I get more attached to humans than to animals. I'd be much more sad seeing my parents or my sister die than my dog. That doesn't make humanity more valuable.

Hell, for the way we're making so many other species go extinct and eating up all the world's resources...

Nevermind.

Lurch1982 · 08-18-2009, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Particular Set of Skills

As heinous as it is, people are making it as if he was this criminal mastermind.

[...]

He served his time in prison, it's over.

He funded the operation, ergo he's the mastermind. His friends that went down with him wouldn't have had the operation if he didn't give them the money and property. He is directly responsible for it, and he should have gotten the maximum because he didn't rat on the rest of the east coast dogfighting scene.

Generally, the higher the pay grade, the less forgiving the profession is towards criminal activity. Yeah, if Vick was the manager at the local Hardees, he could go right back into his profession. However, he isn't. He makes a ton of money, and he's partially paid off the tit of the taxpayer. If a doctor is selling coke in his off-hours, he's pretty much going to be forced out of the medical profession. A lawyer can get disbarred for numerous things. I have no problems barring felons from professional sports leagues as long as said leagues build stadiums with taxpayer dollars, receive anti-trust exemptions, and get ransom from their host cities so they don't leave.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazyswordsman

Plus, Donte Stallworth committed what is essentially murder (I think you can charge a drunk driving related homicide as a murder) and should carry at least 20 years in jail; he's getting a month and the NFL isn't doing a thing.

(1) He got DUI manslaughter. Plead guilty. He got 30 days in jail, 1000 hours of community service, 2 years house arrest and 8 years probation. Oh and his Florida license is suspended for life. He's a first offender on the DUI front and basically did a plea bargain, hence why he didn't get ****ed up the ass and sent to jail for 10 years. Florida law states up to 15 years. He's basically serving a 10 year suspended sentence (30 days + 2 year house arrest + 8 year probation). Unless it was a second or third offense (or you did something like annihilate a pregnant schoolteacher and her first grade class in the crosswalk), pretty much anyone would have gotten this deal.

(2) The NFL suspended him for a year.

Brandon2390 · 08-18-2009, 10:41 AM

Can someone PLEASE tell me why dogfighting is held to such a higher standard than hunting? I still don't get it honestly..people shoot deers, bear, take pictures with the dead animals, then eat them for dinner and put the head on their living room wall...how is that not at least ALMOST as bad? I mean I know Vick drowned, electrocuted, hung, etc. dogs..but I don't see such a wide gap where one can be done for sport, and the other is considered a heinous crime. Again, not condoning what Vick did..I think hanging/electrocuting animals is obviously messed up, I just think society has a skewed perception of what's right and wrong.

Bomby · 08-18-2009, 10:45 AM

There's a difference between torture and killing for food. Hunting for food is natural, because we are an omnivorous species. Torturing dogs the way Michael Vick did is pretty clear evidence of a dangerous psychological detachment.

As for the hunting that isn't for food, I don't agree with that either.

Glux · 08-18-2009, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon2390

Can someone PLEASE tell me why dogfighting is held to such a higher standard than hunting? I still don't get it honestly..people shoot deers, bear, take pictures with the dead animals, then eat them for dinner and put the head on their living room wall...how is that not at least ALMOST as bad? I mean I know Vick drowned, electrocuted, hung, etc. dogs..but I don't see such a wide gap where one can be done for sport, and the other is considered a heinous crime. Again, not condoning what Vick did..I think hanging/electrocuting animals is obviously messed up, I just think society has a skewed perception of what's right and wrong.

http://www.mikepaulblog.com/blog/med...ogfighting.jpg
http://www.thepatrioticgentleman.com...ATURES.ORG.jpg
http://atatude.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/dog.jpg
I'm sorry, what did you say?

Eagle Eye · 08-18-2009, 10:53 AM

Again, never said what he did wasn't wrong. But bankrolling a dogfighting ring if you grew up around that **** is just something you KNOW how to do. You're giving him too much credit for intelligence, he's not that smart.

I don't mind people not liking what he did, but when you turn the table and call him the worst human being, or whatever, that's just, overboard.

My main argument is that there have been PLENTY of people who have committed crimes and went back to playing professional sports, yet there is no uproar over them. If you wnat to treat one man as a criminal treat them ALL as criminals. People call double standard when it comes to Vick, but I don't hear that same thing with all these other players. THAT'S what I want explained.

Oh @ BoJanglz, killing senselessly still is killing senselessly, don't let pictures fool you. Just because someone poses with a dead dear doesn't mean they're going to necessarily eat it. Killing for fun is still killing for fun.

08-15-2009, 02:08 PM	#1
Glux Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Home Gender: Posts: 7,122 Thanks: 647 Thanked 360 Times in 236 Posts Blog Entries: 3	Vick's 2nd chance exposes society's double standard Drew Sharp: Michael Vick's 2nd chance exposes society's double standard \| Detroit Free Press \| Freep.com I like this Drew Sharp guy.

08-15-2009, 04:15 PM	#2
Eagle Eye Diddy bops Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Birmingham, AL Gender: Posts: 15,014 Thanks: 1,616 Thanked 1,084 Times in 597 Posts	Basically what I got from that is that he (like everyone else) doesn't like what VIck did, but he doesnt' think he should get a second chance. Leonard Little killed a man, came back, and no one said ish. I don't expect any protests upon Stallworth's return in 2010. I didn't see outcries against Ricky Manning Jr for his wife beating (I apologize to Vasher for confusing those two), Ray Caruth? Yeah thought so. This was the man's ONLY run in with the law, why do people forget that? They call him a thug, etc, but he had never been arrested up until that point. Yet you have plenty of other thugs in the league bother them. The man has served his time, leave him alone. If you want a "double standard" in society, go check out Martha Stewart's situation..

08-17-2009, 01:44 PM	#3
Crazyswordsman This key doesn't work. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Booyaville (yeah!) Gender: Posts: 10,791 Thanks: 1,019 Thanked 686 Times in 467 Posts	^^I agreed with you until I spoke with my brother, who basically agrees with Andre. Although I disagree with the NFL reinstating him, there are some things to consider here. First, what was the maximum penalty Vick could face? If he served that, and you don't think it's enough (I personally think dogfighting should get at least 10 years), then it's the problem with the law, not with Michael Vick. Plus, Donte Stallworth committed what is essentially murder (I think you can charge a drunk driving related homicide as a murder) and should carry at least 20 years in jail; he's getting a month and the NFL isn't doing a thing. But a lot of people who kill pedestrians are getting off easy, so then again, the problem there lies with law enforcement not doing their part to punish road ragers. There are lots of thugs getting off easy in this world. You can't play favorites with criminals. -CSM

08-17-2009, 01:53 PM	#4
ZeldaGirl Awesome member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Why do YOU want to know...? Gender: Posts: 15,896 Thanks: 1,130 Thanked 1,919 Times in 1,046 Posts	^^ & ^ The article is saying that people shouldn't be given those chances just because they happen to be athletes; people should be standing up and saying 'no, you don't deserve these million dollar contracts and be let off much easier than others in society just because you play a sport.' It's using Vick as the only example, but I imagine the rest is applicable to all those you mentioned. I'm not saying I agree in either case, just highlighting point that you seemed to miss. (Though, I say the guy does have a good argument - when it comes to the rich and the famous, there's no justice ever, it seems.)

08-17-2009, 02:09 PM	#5
Crazyswordsman This key doesn't work. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Booyaville (yeah!) Gender: Posts: 10,791 Thanks: 1,019 Thanked 686 Times in 467 Posts	^Donte Stallworth actually got MORE time than most people do in these cases. Most pedestrian-killers get let off the hook entirely. I still don't agree with what they're doing to Stallworth, I'm just saying it's more the system's fault than any individual's. Our system is wrapped up in the drug and immigrant wars that things like this are getting overlooked. -CSM

08-17-2009, 09:06 PM	#6
Eagle Eye Diddy bops Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Birmingham, AL Gender: Posts: 15,014 Thanks: 1,616 Thanked 1,084 Times in 597 Posts	I think if you do a crime, you should do what you deserve. Once those two years are up, you should be able to return to your profession. His profession happens to make millions of dollars, it's what he's good at. If a real estate agent who makes .5 million per house gets caught smuggling dope and someone happens to give a second change, so be it. There are people who've done WAY more heinous crimes than Vick, go AFTER THEM, people seem to forget Leonard Little had the same situation as Stallworth a couple years back. Ricky Manning Jr. was arrested several times for domestic abuse (which IMO is way worse than dogfighting, but that's my opinion), Jamal Lewis was caught as the middle man in several deals, no one has said a damn word since his return. If you want to talk about double standards, maybe we should look a little closer instead of coming down on the "top" players. And people also forget that Vick never had any legal problems before this incident, yet they label him a "thug".

08-17-2009, 09:24 PM	#7
Bomby You just freaking blew Joe Biden's mind! Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: WHAT?house Gender: Posts: 19,491 Thanks: 513 Thanked 1,449 Times in 849 Posts Blog Entries: 5	What Michael Vick did is more heinous than some of you are giving it credit for. Dogs are not humans, but how are they any less deserving of life? These are living, breathing, conscious beings. Though they may not have as complex intelligence as we have, they are surely able to feel the pain that we do. Michael Vick had them fighting against each other, and he tortured and killed them. There is (or was) very much an anti-social psychology going on that allowed him to carry out these acts, which in my opinion is far scarier than someone shooting and killing a man in a burst of rage. That being said, I do believe that people can change their ways, and I do believe in giving second chances. But it feels a bit too soon to me.

08-17-2009, 09:30 PM	#8
Glux Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Home Gender: Posts: 7,122 Thanks: 647 Thanked 360 Times in 236 Posts Blog Entries: 3	Guys! He's only using Vick as an example because it's one of the most recent. This article isn't against the man himself.

08-17-2009, 10:23 PM	#9
Crazyswordsman This key doesn't work. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Booyaville (yeah!) Gender: Posts: 10,791 Thanks: 1,019 Thanked 686 Times in 467 Posts	^^I support wholeheartedly everything Robert Byrd said in his passionate speech to the senate. But the fact remains if Michael Vick served the maximum sentence for his crime at the time, then that's what the law says he can do. If you don't like it, and let me tell you I don't like it, we can change the law and maybe things can get accomplished. Also, I never liked Drew Sharp anyway. -CSM

08-17-2009, 10:43 PM	#11
Bomby You just freaking blew Joe Biden's mind! Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: WHAT?house Gender: Posts: 19,491 Thanks: 513 Thanked 1,449 Times in 849 Posts Blog Entries: 5	We hijacked your thread and took it in our own direction. Sorry. These things happen sometimes.

08-17-2009, 10:49 PM	#12
Crazyswordsman This key doesn't work. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Booyaville (yeah!) Gender: Posts: 10,791 Thanks: 1,019 Thanked 686 Times in 467 Posts	^^This is off on a tangent a little, but I'd like you to read this. This guy is in a similar situation as Michael Vick, although the crime he's being accused of (which I believe he's innocent of) is causing him to lose contracts. I'm not comparing dogfighting to pushing a car away in self-defense (in fact the former is bad and the latter is good), but your life shouldn't be ruined because you're on trial for something. -CSM

08-18-2009, 12:55 AM	#15
Bomby You just freaking blew Joe Biden's mind! Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: WHAT?house Gender: Posts: 19,491 Thanks: 513 Thanked 1,449 Times in 849 Posts Blog Entries: 5	It has little to do with being a dog lover. This is my own brand of no-nonsense morality. As a human, I relate more to humans. I get more attached to humans than to animals. I'd be much more sad seeing my parents or my sister die than my dog. That doesn't make humanity more valuable. Hell, for the way we're making so many other species go extinct and eating up all the world's resources... Nevermind.

08-18-2009, 10:41 AM	#17
Brandon2390 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Connecticut Posts: 10,519 Thanks: 7 Thanked 30 Times in 22 Posts	Can someone PLEASE tell me why dogfighting is held to such a higher standard than hunting? I still don't get it honestly..people shoot deers, bear, take pictures with the dead animals, then eat them for dinner and put the head on their living room wall...how is that not at least ALMOST as bad? I mean I know Vick drowned, electrocuted, hung, etc. dogs..but I don't see such a wide gap where one can be done for sport, and the other is considered a heinous crime. Again, not condoning what Vick did..I think hanging/electrocuting animals is obviously messed up, I just think society has a skewed perception of what's right and wrong.

08-18-2009, 10:45 AM	#18
Bomby You just freaking blew Joe Biden's mind! Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: WHAT?house Gender: Posts: 19,491 Thanks: 513 Thanked 1,449 Times in 849 Posts Blog Entries: 5	There's a difference between torture and killing for food. Hunting for food is natural, because we are an omnivorous species. Torturing dogs the way Michael Vick did is pretty clear evidence of a dangerous psychological detachment. As for the hunting that isn't for food, I don't agree with that either.

08-18-2009, 10:53 AM	#20
Eagle Eye Diddy bops Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Birmingham, AL Gender: Posts: 15,014 Thanks: 1,616 Thanked 1,084 Times in 597 Posts	Again, never said what he did wasn't wrong. But bankrolling a dogfighting ring if you grew up around that **** is just something you KNOW how to do. You're giving him too much credit for intelligence, he's not that smart. I don't mind people not liking what he did, but when you turn the table and call him the worst human being, or whatever, that's just, overboard. My main argument is that there have been PLENTY of people who have committed crimes and went back to playing professional sports, yet there is no uproar over them. If you wnat to treat one man as a criminal treat them ALL as criminals. People call double standard when it comes to Vick, but I don't hear that same thing with all these other players. THAT'S what I want explained. Oh @ BoJanglz, killing senselessly still is killing senselessly, don't let pictures fool you. Just because someone poses with a dead dear doesn't mean they're going to necessarily eat it. Killing for fun is still killing for fun.