Your opinion on cheap fighting?

**Valigarmander** · 08-20-2008, 09:26 PM

Cheap fighting, as in edge-guarding, item-hogging, C-sticking, repeated use of cheap attacks, hit-and-run techniques... that sort of thing.

Myself, I have a distinct "beat upon others as you would have them beat upon you" code of honor. I try not to use dirty tactics against other players since it would very well piss me off if they tried them on me. Plus, it's so much more satisfying to be able to defeat some cheap n00b without having to resort to bottom-tier dirty moves.

Panfan · 08-20-2008, 09:31 PM

I never got how C-sticking was cheap. I remember somebody calling it cheap when I was C-sticking during Melee. It's a button, it's not some dirty technique, and it's more worth it doing the charged attack anyway.

**Valigarmander** · 08-20-2008, 09:32 PM

^ I guess I should've put spamming C-stick, since it's easily done and most often what seems to happen.

***CaptHayfever*** · 08-20-2008, 10:06 PM

Edge-guarding is NOT cheap. Edge-hogging is cheap.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

Bomby · 08-20-2008, 10:08 PM

What about using lots of throws? Is that cheap?

Speed · 08-20-2008, 11:54 PM

I C-Stick, but nothing else I SWEAR!!!!

***Booyakasha*** · 08-20-2008, 11:58 PM

1. I play to win, not to impress everyone with my gallantry. 'Cheap play' is a gameplay tactic like any other. If you aren't willing to use any tactic to win, any weapon in your arsenal, then you aren't really playing to win.

2. I don't believe in letting people win--that's poor sportsmanship. It's condescending. As far as I'm concerned, if you aren't doing everything in your power to kick the crap out of your opponent, you're essentially saying, "You pose absolutely no threat to me. Do whatever you want--the only way you can beat me is if I allow you to." Screw that crap.

**Deku Trii** · 08-21-2008, 12:47 AM

Any chance you've read this essay, Boo?

Sirlin.net -- Your source of shocking insights on game design

***CaptHayfever*** · 08-21-2008, 01:06 AM

^^As far as I'm concerned, it's the opposite. Edge-hogging is condescending; it's saying "You are so low in my estimation that I'm not even going to bother taking the time to kill you properly."

Edge-hogging is not only cheap, though; it's unnecessary. Any time it would be effective is a time when any of 20 other moves would be equally effective, more fun, & (usually) easier.
But then, I play a character that gets good air time. *coughfoxfallslikearockandmarthcannotjumpcough*

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

***Booyakasha*** · 08-21-2008, 01:47 AM

^Yeah. Not buying that argument at all. Mostly because you apparently have a definition for 'killing properly' that doesn't really match up with the game's definition of 'killing properly', aka 'causing the opponent to fall off, fly off, or otherwise disappear from the field of play'. Also because you're inferring a sinister motive on your opponent's part when he uses one move that causes you to lose a life, instead of using some other move that...wait for it...causes you to lose a life.

Incidentally, do you really consider it condescending that your opponent wants to kill you? Because I'd say that's the exact opposite. The opponent who f*cking toys with you, that's the condescending prick. There's a proverb--'the lion uses all his strength, even when hunting a rabbit'.

^^Never read it 'til now. Damned fine piece of work.

SephirothKirby · 08-21-2008, 02:06 AM

I don't really think there are "Cheap" tactics in Brawl...

Robotazy · 08-21-2008, 07:34 AM

Especially not Item Hogging. If you can't get items from a single player, you aren't trying

I REALLY HATE POKEMON! · 08-21-2008, 01:26 PM

Well then Boo, what's your policy on glitches?

Also: If you chuck a dude off a cliff and jump to hang on so they can't...technically, it is their fault for getting knocked off but it is pretty low, IMO.

heh · 08-21-2008, 02:21 PM

None of those are even remotely cheap. The only thing I would consider "cheap" are exploits and infinites, and the fan.

EDIT: and chainthrows. Those are basically infinites only stopped by the edge of the level and they can only really be competed with by other characters with chainthrows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Horrible

Any chance you've read this essay, Boo?

Sirlin.net -- Your source of shocking insights on game design

oh hey its that guy, hes p.cool.

I wish he didn't use the term "for fun" when describing a scrub cheapness mantra though, it makes him look like a jackass. I also wish he didn't sound like he was a huge tourney jackass that only plays high tier characters. I don't think he is, but some of his article sounds like that.

EDIT: Capt, most moves give the enemy their double jump back, meaning it would make sense to not hit them. the exception is spikes, which are much more risky and harder to do in general. edgehogging is the less risky option, and in the end, you still hit them off the edge.

ZeldaGirl · 08-21-2008, 03:37 PM

^If you read the forum about the article, he explains things there too. To some royal trolling n00bs, too, it's both hilarious and pathetic.

heh · 08-21-2008, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeldaGirl

^If you read the forum about the article, he explains things there too. To some royal trolling n00bs, too, it's both hilarious and pathetic.

after reading the third article in the series I can forgive him in his annoying wording

Luigiman7 · 08-21-2008, 10:16 PM

I only C-Stick and repeat cheap attacks. It helps.

Dizzy · 08-22-2008, 06:56 AM

I would only resort to cheap attacks if the opponent was completely kicking my ass.

Kargath · 08-22-2008, 08:40 AM

Edge hogging is clearly intended as a tactic - you even get style points for it in Style battle.
As for C sticking, it's just a shortcut. You can easily pull off the same speed attack using just A and the control stick.

If you have to resort to bugs or hacks in order to win, you are not skilled at the game that the creators designed.

***CaptHayfever*** · 08-22-2008, 01:16 PM

Boo, I want them to be too scared of me to even think such a trick would work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

EDIT: Capt, most moves give the enemy their double jump back, meaning it would make sense to not hit them. the exception is spikes, which are much more risky and harder to do in general. edgehogging is the less risky option, and in the end, you still hit them off the edge.

Nothing gives an enemy their double jump back. I think you mean their triple. And the goal in an air chase is to knock them further than their triple can cover.

Just hitting them off the edge is nothing. Hitting them so they can't even come close to making it back is something.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

08-20-2008, 09:26 PM	#1
Valigarmander The Bee's Knees Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The land of rain and trees (Oregon) Gender: Posts: 29,755 Thanks: 1,649 Thanked 5,701 Times in 2,581 Posts Blog Entries: 20	Your opinion on cheap fighting? Cheap fighting, as in edge-guarding, item-hogging, C-sticking, repeated use of cheap attacks, hit-and-run techniques... that sort of thing. Myself, I have a distinct "beat upon others as you would have them beat upon you" code of honor. I try not to use dirty tactics against other players since it would very well piss me off if they tried them on me. Plus, it's so much more satisfying to be able to defeat some cheap n00b without having to resort to bottom-tier dirty moves.

08-21-2008, 01:06 AM	#9
*CaptHayfever* Smash SuperMod Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: (n) - the place where I am Gender: Posts: 27,661 Thanks: 1,991 Thanked 2,486 Times in 1,513 Posts	^^As far as I'm concerned, it's the opposite. Edge-hogging is condescending; it's saying "You are so low in my estimation that I'm not even going to bother taking the time to kill you properly." Edge-hogging is not only cheap, though; it's unnecessary. Any time it would be effective is a time when any of 20 other moves would be equally effective, more fun, & (usually) easier. But then, I play a character that gets good air time. coughfoxfallslikearockandmarthcannotjumpcough And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!" Last edited by CaptHayfever; 08-21-2008 at 01:11 AM.

08-21-2008, 01:47 AM	#10
*Booyakasha* SuperMod of War Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Wisconsinland Gender: Posts: 9,945 Thanks: 157 Thanked 1,481 Times in 763 Posts	^Yeah. Not buying that argument at all. Mostly because you apparently have a definition for 'killing properly' that doesn't really match up with the game's definition of 'killing properly', aka 'causing the opponent to fall off, fly off, or otherwise disappear from the field of play'. Also because you're inferring a sinister motive on your opponent's part when he uses one move that causes you to lose a life, instead of using some other move that...wait for it...causes you to lose a life. Incidentally, do you really consider it condescending that your opponent wants to kill you? Because I'd say that's the exact opposite. The opponent who fcking toys with you, that's the condescending prick. There's a proverb--'the lion uses all his strength, even when hunting a rabbit'. ^^Never read it 'til now. Damned fine piece of work. Last edited by Booyakasha; 08-21-2008 at 02:30 AM.*

08-21-2008, 10:16 PM	#17
Luigiman7 ヽ(◔ ◡ ◔)ノ.･ﾟ*｡･+☆ Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: ~)´◡｀(~ Gender: Posts: 17,605 Thanks: 1,134 Thanked 1,012 Times in 713 Posts Blog Entries: 8	I only C-Stick and repeat cheap attacks. It helps. __________________ ／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ＷＯＮ’Ｔ　ＹＯＵ　ＢＥＣＯＭＥ　Ａ　ＭＡＧＩＣＡＬ　ＧＩＲＬ？

08-20-2008, 09:31 PM	#2
Panfan AND HE PRAYS Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Grayskull Gender: Posts: 18,806 Thanks: 1,405 Thanked 2,251 Times in 1,339 Posts Blog Entries: 15	I never got how C-sticking was cheap. I remember somebody calling it cheap when I was C-sticking during Melee. It's a button, it's not some dirty technique, and it's more worth it doing the charged attack anyway.

08-20-2008, 09:32 PM	#3
Valigarmander The Bee's Knees Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The land of rain and trees (Oregon) Gender: Posts: 29,755 Thanks: 1,649 Thanked 5,701 Times in 2,581 Posts Blog Entries: 20	^ I guess I should've put spamming C-stick, since it's easily done and most often what seems to happen.

08-20-2008, 10:06 PM	#4
*CaptHayfever* Smash SuperMod Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: (n) - the place where I am Gender: Posts: 27,661 Thanks: 1,991 Thanked 2,486 Times in 1,513 Posts	Edge-guarding is NOT cheap. Edge-hogging is cheap. And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

08-20-2008, 10:08 PM	#5
Bomby You just freaking blew Joe Biden's mind! Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: WHAT?house Gender: Posts: 19,492 Thanks: 513 Thanked 1,449 Times in 849 Posts Blog Entries: 5	What about using lots of throws? Is that cheap?

08-20-2008, 11:54 PM	#6
Speed Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: If there's a bright center to the universe I'm on the planet it's farthest from Gender: Posts: 3,747 Thanks: 1,598 Thanked 320 Times in 224 Posts Blog Entries: 1	I C-Stick, but nothing else I SWEAR!!!!

08-20-2008, 11:58 PM	#7
*Booyakasha* SuperMod of War Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Wisconsinland Gender: Posts: 9,945 Thanks: 157 Thanked 1,481 Times in 763 Posts	1. I play to win, not to impress everyone with my gallantry. 'Cheap play' is a gameplay tactic like any other. If you aren't willing to use any tactic to win, any weapon in your arsenal, then you aren't really playing to win. 2. I don't believe in letting people win--that's poor sportsmanship. It's condescending. As far as I'm concerned, if you aren't doing everything in your power to kick the crap out of your opponent, you're essentially saying, "You pose absolutely no threat to me. Do whatever you want--the only way you can beat me is if I allow you to." Screw that crap.

08-21-2008, 12:47 AM	#8
Deku Trii PP&R Mod Current Events Mod Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Texas Gender: Posts: 9,033 Thanks: 521 Thanked 1,099 Times in 583 Posts	Any chance you've read this essay, Boo? Sirlin.net -- Your source of shocking insights on game design

08-21-2008, 02:06 AM	#11
SephirothKirby Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Those who criticize our generation forget who raised it. Gender: Posts: 7,213 Thanks: 373 Thanked 760 Times in 447 Posts	I don't really think there are "Cheap" tactics in Brawl...

08-21-2008, 07:34 AM	#12
Robotazy PRESS ANY KEY TO PANIC! Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: A Tiny Shed Gender: Posts: 16,484 Thanks: 529 Thanked 1,254 Times in 897 Posts Blog Entries: 46	Especially not Item Hogging. If you can't get items from a single player, you aren't trying

08-21-2008, 01:26 PM	#13
I REALLY HATE POKEMON! Goku lives on the Sun Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: California, U.S.A Gender: Posts: 12,717 Thanks: 1,334 Thanked 275 Times in 234 Posts Blog Entries: 1	Well then Boo, what's your policy on glitches? Also: If you chuck a dude off a cliff and jump to hang on so they can't...technically, it is their fault for getting knocked off but it is pretty low, IMO.

08-21-2008, 03:37 PM	#15
ZeldaGirl Awesome member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Why do YOU want to know...? Gender: Posts: 15,896 Thanks: 1,130 Thanked 1,919 Times in 1,046 Posts	^If you read the forum about the article, he explains things there too. To some royal trolling n00bs, too, it's both hilarious and pathetic.

08-22-2008, 06:56 AM	#18
Dizzy Podiaphobe Join Date: Oct 2007 Gender: Posts: 19,359 Thanks: 1,764 Thanked 1,162 Times in 805 Posts Blog Entries: 116	I would only resort to cheap attacks if the opponent was completely kicking my ass.

08-22-2008, 08:40 AM	#19
Kargath et in Arcadia ego Join Date: Jul 2001 Gender: Posts: 8,334 Thanks: 1,226 Thanked 780 Times in 488 Posts	Edge hogging is clearly intended as a tactic - you even get style points for it in Style battle. As for C sticking, it's just a shortcut. You can easily pull off the same speed attack using just A and the control stick. If you have to resort to bugs or hacks in order to win, you are not skilled at the game that the creators designed.