German police quash Breitbart story of mob setting fire to Dortmund church

Discussion in 'Politics, Philosophy, and Religion' started by Dekurated Tree, Jan 8, 2017.

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    Deku Tree

    Deku Tree Awesome Current Events and PPR Mod Staff Member

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    Good luck, Germany.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ting-fire-to-dortmund-church?CMP=share_btn_tw
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    Valigarmander

    Valigarmander Creepy Mario Mod Staff Member Supporter

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    Well now, who are you going to believe? Some pinko Germans or good ol' Breitbart?
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    The Amazing Tazy Ten

    The Amazing Tazy Ten Happy Dingergisbar! Supporter

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    F**k biased as hell news sites. Breitbart is one of the worst. They're so vindictive and think that because they're right-wing they can get away with the s**t they pull.

    Get your lies out of my face!
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    I REALLY HATE POKEMON!

    I REALLY HATE POKEMON! Goku lives on the Sun

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    Sounds like a coverup. They want to push the image of Islam being a religion of peace which isn't going to work as long as people have the Internet.
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    Calamity Panfan

    Calamity Panfan I am in great pain; please help me. Staff Member

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    **** breitbart
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    X-3

    X-3 Punished Mod Staff Member

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    е и ժ е я

    е и ժ е я ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ Staff Member

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    I was just thinking that of course their ideal audience will just say it's a conspiracy or something. The internet has destroyed the credibility of news sources in general, and people have visibly begun to favor confirmation bias even when they know what confirmation bias is. The only thing it would take to prove the Breitbart story's truth is any shred of actual evidence. They claimed a famous church was badly burned, and also claimed that it's the oldest when it is not.
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    Shane

    Shane Administrator Staff Member

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    I assume any publication complaining about fake news is itself guilty of spreading fake news.
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    I REALLY HATE POKEMON!

    I REALLY HATE POKEMON! Goku lives on the Sun

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    There was a relatively recently incident of a big news site criticizing the fake news going around and then themselves caught shoveling out a fake story (too lazy to cite specifics). It's hard to trust anything you hear regardless of source, imo. I often use news as a suggestion to investigate something which may be, or see it as a piece of a possible truth instead of an actual enlightenment of events. It's not like I can prove the truth anyway, so I generally default to a middleground assumption, especially when something like this happens. As such, I don't believe either side in this particular instance. Both sides could be pushing an agenda so I just figure there was an incident of significance but it wasn't the hellscape Breitbart painted and certainly not a bunch of Muslims sitting in a circle holding hands singing of peace either. I conclude that there were a number of troublemakers who made a scene and tried to cause more trouble than they actually did.

    I also think this criticism of the article is a bit misleading, too. So they got their "which church is the oldest somewhere" facts wrong, not really more than an edit and a note with an apology. I have doubts the rest is incorrect. I assume that to be the case without having read anything outside of this topic. I just now (as of writing this sentence) read Breitbart's take and here's what they have to say:

    http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...on-breitbarts-allahu-akbar-church-fire-story/

    I assumed this to be the case, and I'm usually right with my assumptions. I still don't believe either side completely but this comes off as sounding true to me.
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    I am nobody

    I am nobody I am not mean spam Staff Member

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    Even assuming all of that is correct, it's still wildly different from what they said. Surely we can agree that "Revealed: 1,000-man mob attack police, set Germany’s oldest church alight on New Year’s Eve" paints a very different image than "Revealed: 1,000 mostly non-native German men were in a square together, at least some shoot fireworks and cause a fire at St. Reinold's Church." It's also worth noting that, as you can imagine, "God is greatest" is not exclusively used by jihadists, and the term "Free Syrian Army" is currently claimed by many groups, some of whom have western backing and are very definitely not IS collaborator. They also conveniently fail to mention their claim that the al-Qaeda flag was flown, which was among their most serious accusations.

    So no, even granting that their second version of events is exactly what happened, I don't agree that "almost every substantive fact" was confirmed.
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    I REALLY HATE POKEMON!

    I REALLY HATE POKEMON! Goku lives on the Sun

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    At best your argument is that they were misleading, it isn't "fake news" if we're assuming all of that was correct. So I agree, they did paint a different picture, just not a "very" different one. Saying "10,000 Islamic terrorists kill entire police force, burn city to ground" is fake news. Point is it wasn't peaceful, you can tell from the video alone that it was an unruly group. This story is a battleground of agendas, somewhere in there is the truth, if you're willing to see it.
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    I am nobody

    I am nobody I am not mean spam Staff Member

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    Their version does not defend the claim of police being attacked nor that the al-Qaeda flag was flown, nor does it address the implications that the church was deliberately set on fire and that all of these were collective actions by a mob of 1,000. Two major objective falsehoods in the article and two extremely misleading statements in the headline qualifies as either unacceptably terrible reporting or deliberately fake news in my book.
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    I REALLY HATE POKEMON!

    I REALLY HATE POKEMON! Goku lives on the Sun

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    According to them this other news source they are at odds with seems to have reported the following:

    So unless both are lying despite their differences there should be little doubt about the police being targeted.

    They claim the flag was in a video posted by this "RN":

    Again, if true then the flag part is covered as well.

    The church fire was essentially deliberate if not by intent then by recklessness illegal activity, nitpicking basically. Also obviously not every single individual of a 1,000 person group will each take equal part in something. When you hear of a mob knocking over cars do you think the entire mob down to each individual has flipped a single car each? Let's not argue semantics.

    As far as I am concerned there is an absolute difference between "misleading" and "false," but neither are acceptable. It's just that in principle there doesn't seem to be anything blatantly false here, "just" misrepresented facts. As Breitbart points out there doesn't seem to be anyone in a rush to mention the homeless man attacked and seriously injured. They're fast to correct Breitbart on their German church history though...
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    SKELETOR

    SKELETOR Overlord of Evil

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    Brietbart is pure clickbait for ad revenue. They may stretch the truth or outright lie, but it doesn't really matter so long as you looked at the article.
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    е и ժ е я

    е и ժ е я ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ ▼ Staff Member

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    I'm glad Ihop can see the merits of dismissing flagrant dishonesty and misrepresentation in the name of good faith.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2017
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    Sim Kid

    Sim Kid Well-Known Member

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    If that's the case... it's failing spectacularly given how the non-web media seems to fixate on whether or not a criminal was a muslim.
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    I am nobody

    I am nobody I am not mean spam Staff Member

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    It matters in this case, though, because the image of 1,000 people attacking police and burning a church is very different from some individuals within a crowd of 1,000 shooting fireworks at a church and starting a minor church fire. Their headline (presumably deliberately) allows the interpretation that a mob of 1,000 overwhelmed police and had the explicit goal of burning a church. The reality is an incident of a crowd getting out of hand, but far from the riot they're presenting. Semantics matter, especially on the internet when many people stop after the headline.

    I said the al-Qaeda flag claim was undefended, not the FSA flag. Still haven't seen any attempt to address that claim.

    The FSA the Washington Post is referencing collapsed several years ago, and IS indeed claimed to have received many defectors. But like I said in my first post, "Free Syrian Army" and its symbols are now claimed by many resistance groups in Syria, and some of them are backed or even founded by the west. They could be IS sympathizers, but it's about as logical to assume they are as it would be to assume someone flying the Kentucky flag in the Civil War was a secret Confederate just because many of their fellow statesmen defected. "**** Assad" is at least as likely to be the intended message.

    I'll agree with that on a technical level, but like you say, neither are acceptable, so practically they should be condemned either way.

    (although I would say that the al-Qaeda flag claim is blatantly false)
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    Deku Tree

    Deku Tree Awesome Current Events and PPR Mod Staff Member

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    Deku Tree

    Deku Tree Awesome Current Events and PPR Mod Staff Member

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    Shane

    Shane Administrator Staff Member

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    Are the Germans and French also concerned about people hearing the truth? Sadly, I imagine that to be so for any government, regardless of political affiliation, so perhaps that is a rhetorical question.

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