Twilight Princess release date. Good news and bad news.

[The Missing Link]

Originally Posted by Booyakasha

There's more, but, as I see it, those are the Wii's most obvious flaws. Granted, I don't do as much multiplayer gaming as I used to, so the price of additional controllers is bound to bother me less than it would those of you who aren't (or, in TML's case, want to pretend they aren't) hideous social cripples. I also don't see the problem with the higher-than-hoped-for price point; I didn't want one anyway, so a higher price doesn't make me want one less. The delay for 'Twilight Princess' similarly doesn't bother me for the simple reason that, not being a Nintendo-only loon, I have other things to play between now and then (I haven't even begun 'Okami' yet).

In all honesty, the days of a single-console household are dead, Boo. (That should be right up your alley, eh eh? ) I actually currently own a 'Cube, an Xbox, and as PS2--the last two of which were bought well after launch when the price went down. Granted, I don't have many games for the Xbox (it has other uses), but the PS2 I use a fair bit. (It's actually safe to say I've played more on the PS2 of late than I have on the 'Cube, despite it having an atrocious graphics card.)

My current plans are to get a Wii on launch day (primarily because of Zelda but secondarily because I'm actually rather curious to get my hands on the controller to see how it works with the upcoming games) and then eventually to get a 360 once (a) the price goes down and (b) once the variety of gaming gets a little more varied. In fact, there's a lot of people going the Wii60 combo this time around--360 for "traditional" gaming with Wii to augment that with a brand new style of gaming. It will be a cold day in Hyrule when a PS3 graces the presence of my dwelling; their poor PR campaign has shown me no reason to trust first-generation Blu-Ray, Cell, or the so-called innovation that Sony & Friends are supposedly doing.

(By the way, I really like what I've seen of Okami so far, but I've yet to pick it up.)

Originally Posted by CodieKitty

It's not just the controller misinterpreting you for the controls. Before I had a DS, I theorized the attitude with making games for it was going to be "Because you can touch to play games, it's so much more IMMERISIVE and FUN than any game that uses standard controls. Wait, what? You want level design? And structure? And challenge? Dude, you're stupid. Isn't being able to scribble stuff on the screen FUN ENOUGH FOR YOU? DON'T YOU LIKE FUN?"

When I actually got a DS, I found that, yeah, I was dead on.

I agree about 50% with you on that one. Super Mario 64 DS was a horrible game, and I personally believe that Super Mario 64 on the N64 was a bloody awesome game. The three control styles sucked (to the point where I only used the stylus to run around objects that needed running around--a.k.a. something that needs an analog stick) to the point where it was painful to play. (The game remains at the exact same point Super Mario Sunshine sits at: beaten, but only with the minimum number of stars to beat the game.) To say it simply, the touch screen isn't the solution to everything.

(The same actually goes for New Super Mario Bros., which I'm one of the 5 people in America who thinks that it is a horrible game. However, since they didn't use the touch screen that much, I'll let it slide for now.)

Be that as it may, the stylus IS a wonderful device, so much that I believe that every future handheld gaming system needs to have one. Phoenix Wright can be played without a stylus, but it's MUCH easier to play with one. Menu selection for Mario Kart DS, especially with the entering of wireless settings, is easier with the stylus. WarioWare Touched is just plain addictive. Osu! Takate! Ouendan! (in America called Elite Beat Agents) is--as a friend of mine would call it--hot sex on toast.

In short, certain things are great with it; certain things are not.

I guess the overall moral of the story is that it would be nice if some Wii games were nothing more than a GameCube controller, as is the plan (as last I heard) with Super Smash Bros.: Brawl, for the games that "don't make sense with super godlike motion sensing controls." But I don't mind; that's what a second console is for.

[I'm just fixing a typo I made in that post you quoted. I'm sure everyone knew what I meant, but it's been bugging me. -CK]

[Codiekitty]

I actually used the control pad for all of SM64DS. I thought it was decent (My short review of it at my site says "Good", but I've been pondering bumping it down one), but not on par with the original what with dumbed down stars and levels and Wario being a waste of memory.

Menu selections aren't exactly gameplay, and it should be noted that Phoenix Wright is a port of a GBA game. Wario Ware may be "addictive" (even I admit to getting sucked up by it for, oh, three days), but is it really a pinnacle of game design?

Originally Posted by Wyborn

Codie's bitter.

News Flash.


Where are these lemmings going? The Super Nintendo Super Shire! Hop in line and follow them there!

[Golden Ganon]

That's what I always thought Nintendo did!

The executive director of Zelda comes in and says, "Do you know what would be funny" The directors: "What?" The executive director: "Let's delay the release of Zelda Again!" The directors: *maniacal laugh*.

[Codiekitty]

He doesn't mean just delay it, he means totally cancel it for the Gamecube, something that's looking more and more likely.


Where are these lemmings going? The Super Nintendo Super Shire! Hop in line and follow them there!

[Booyakasha]

Originally Posted by The Missing Link

In all honesty, the days of a single-console household are dead, Boo. (That should be right up your alley, eh eh? )

They're dead for you and me; we're in our twenties, and we've got jobs. Loads of gamers aren't like us; many are too young, and many others didn't get into gaming until they got older, and now have families and crap standing between them and their far-off dreams of multi-console-dom. (By the way, putting emoticons in your posts kills brain-cells in your reading audience. It's true--I actually felt my IQ drop a quarter-point when I read your little joke. I'll have to stroke my chin thoughtfully at least a dozen times to get that back, you know.)

(It's actually safe to say I've played more on the PS2 of late than I have on the 'Cube, despite it having an atrocious graphics card.)

What? You've been spending more time on the console that's had games released for it in recent memory? You cad.

then eventually to get a 360 once (a) the price goes down and (b) once the variety of gaming gets a little more varied.

Dude, weak. It's got 'Ninety-Nine Nights' and 'Dead Rising', two games dedicated to the ennobling principle of beating the crap out of everybody in the world. If you need more than that, then there is no pleasing you. And you're probably some kind of devil, stalking the earth in the guise of a man, spreading the burning sands of Gehenna wherever you cast your unholy gaze.

It will be a cold day in Hyrule when a PS3 graces the presence of my dwelling; their poor PR campaign has shown me no reason to trust first-generation Blu-Ray, Cell, or the so-called innovation that Sony & Friends are supposedly doing.

The XBox360 is going to be where it's at this generation. I might get a PS3 later on for completeness' sake, but it's looking to be more and more irrelevant with each passing day. Shame--Sony was doing really well, and dropping the ball like this is going to cost them.

(By the way, I really like what I've seen of Okami so far, but I've yet to pick it up.)

Your excuse for not playing it is better than mine; I own it, but got side-tracked with 'Samurai Warriors 2', 'Lego Star Wars 2', and 'Disgaea 2' (I've got sequel fever! Awww yeah.)

[The Missing Link]

Originally Posted by Booyakasha

Dude, weak. It's got 'Ninety-Nine Nights' and 'Dead Rising', two games dedicated to the ennobling principle of beating the crap out of everybody in the world. If you need more than that, then there is no pleasing you. And you're probably some kind of devil, stalking the earth in the guise of a man, spreading the burning sands of Gehenna wherever you cast your unholy gaze.

This is borderline going off-topic to extend discussion of this, but yes I have been thoroughly impressed by both of the games you mentioned. Be that as it may, Ninety-nine Nights, unlike Dynasty Warriors 3 (which of the ones I've played was the best one to date), has no longevity--no long-term replay value. Sure, it's fun beating up 2k+ warriors on a single board (and having hit combos measuring in the thousands thanks to Inphyy and Dwingvatt), but once you've played it through, the lack of quantity in characters and levels will inevitably catch up to you, thus making it nothing more than a spectacle of robotic beauty. (Okay, except for Fort Wyandeek when Inphyy kills all the goblin women and children.) Dead Rising, while a VERY impressive game in its execution, is not my style of game... and it's also a game that I would say is unique to its breed. I am a better man for having played it, but it is a game that, on my own, I would never have played if I had to buy it to try it.

That said, I think Enchanted Arms will be a good start to increasing the genre diversity of the 360. I only hope they keep that up. (The things I would do to see Project Offset are many.)

The XBox360 is going to be where it's at this generation. I might get a PS3 later on for completeness' sake, but it's looking to be more and more irrelevant with each passing day. Shame--Sony was doing really well, and dropping the ball like this is going to cost them.

It's sad, but true. (You know it's sad when you're rooting for Microsoft to crush another company!) The only game that I've heard of for PS3 that is really intriguing me right now is White Knight Story, but it's not a game I'm willing to shell out $600 (or even $500) plus an HD TV just to get. Once I start seeing several titles that PS3 has that I "must have" that 360 does not will be the beginning of the temptation, but I don't think that will happen for a while though; many developers are hedging their bets by removing PS3 exclusivity from their early titles. (I would absolutely laugh if MGS4 lost exclusivity on PS3, but I find a very perverse pleasure in watching Sony writhe in pain.)

It's because of this that I actually think the metagame of seeing which people adopt which systems (and how they are supported over time) will actually be quite interesting. Japan hates the 360 with every fibre of their bodies, the PS3 has lost so much steam since E3, and Wii will only be a "second console" for many people. In many ways, this generation could result in a three-way tie, and in many ways, I think that's the best result to get to.

[Wyborn]

I got bored with Ninety-Nine Nights' demo. Before the end even. Recommend it again and be destroyed.

Pssst....TML....look towards Lost Odyssey. Oh yeah.

[Booyakasha]

^^Really? I thought N3 had replay value in spades. It was rough-hewn, of course, but the changes it made to the DW formula were significant enough to give it its own unique groove (the 'wingman'-style commands really rocked my skull). As for 'Dead Rising'...hell, anything that gives me an excuse to randomly jump to my feet, throw out my arms, and scream "MORTAL ZOMBAT!!!" gets my seal of approval.

'Enchanted Arms' does nothing for me; I have a hard time getting excited about Japanese-style RPGs. (Give me non-linear American-style RPGs any day. Especially 'Metal Saga', the awesomest game ever made. Seriously, TML, check out the trailer, and, if you see a copy on the cheap somewhere, snag it. Every industry rag on the planet ripped it to shreds, which only confirms my general thesis about gaming journos being a bunch of sold-out scum who wouldn't know quality if it whipped its pants off and rammed its pubis into their faces.)

A three-way tie would likely destroy Sony.

[Prince Toad]

Uh, most of my friends and I have only one (current-gen) console.

Why should every game have to be "the pinnacle of game design?" There are still plenty of epic adventure games, deep strategy games, immersive and captivating RPGs. What's wrong with taking a break from those to play a fun, addictive little game like WarioWare or Katamari Damacy? They're not the greatest games in the world, but they're definitely enjoyable. (Renting the Gamecube WarioWare + 5 friends = awesome.) And frankly, I believe that WarioWare, at least the one I played, is a fine instance of game design. And I'm more into game design than you are. You could certainly have a crappy WarioWare-like game, but the one I played was a lot of fun. (Don't get all bitchy about the word fun either, I don't want to hear it.)

I liked New SMB. Not nearly as much as SMB3, but I liked it. Worth buying, in my opinion.

[Codiekitty]

Where have I ever said that every game should have to be the pinnacle of game design? What I'm referring to is how everyone acts like Wario Ware is some pinnacle of game design.

I do believe that every game should at least try to be good, and that the fact that no game can be "THE pinnacle of game design" is no excuse to slap some crap together and make people pay money for it.

How much intelligence does it take to make Wario Ware? How much brain power and creativity does it take to make a five-second long game where you press the A button when a mouse walks under a cage? Sure, there's 200+ microgrames in the first one, but I don't believe any of them took any more time to come up with as it takes to play them (and the "boss" of the final Wario level has level design from the mind of a kindergartener) and a good many of them are identical (I'd estimate about 2/3 of the games in the first one are either button mashers or "timers")

How much brain power and creativity does it take to make a game where you roll a ball around, pick up crap that's haphazardly littered around the area, and as your ball gets bigger you can pick up bigger crap that's haphazardly littered around the area?

I wouldn't have much of a problem with games like Wario Ware and Katamari Damacy if people would acknowledge them as the fun little time wasters they are and stop acting like they have anything on games like Super Mario Bros. 3, Vagrant Story, and Final Fantasy 6.


Where are these lemmings going? The Super Nintendo Super Shire! Hop in line and follow them there!

[Wyborn]

They don't make anyone pay money for anything. People buy it of their own volition.

[Codiekitty]

Thanks for addressing my points instead of nitpicking how I worded them.


Where are these lemmings going? The Super Nintendo Super Shire! Hop in line and follow them there!

[Prince Toad]

I've never heard of Vagrant Story, but whatever.

People know those games are "fun little time-wasters," but they still like them. Really, I'd say that the majority of games are fun time-wasters-- that's their nature. But something like Skies of Arcadia might be an fun, epic time-waster, whereas WarioWare is a fun little time-waster. It's just a matter of scale.

How much brain power and creativity? More than you'd think. Maybe the premises themselves aren't complicated, but they aren't not something that you'd just sit down and think of right away. Once they'd gotten the idea for WarioWare, then churning out microgames probably wasn't that hard. But first they had to say, "What if we make a game whose gameplay is based entirely around 200 5-second 'microgames?' " That takes a lot of creativity. And then after they got the idea, they had to execute the idea in such a way that people have a good time playing it. The idea behind Katamari Damacy isn't complicated, but it is in fact very creative, and it makes a good game.

It probably took much less creativity, in fact, to come up with Super Smash Bros., for instance, than it did to come up with either WarioWare or Katamari. "Let's throw all the famous Nintendo mascots into an arena and have them fight" isn't very creative at all, if you think about it-- although, of course, the actual fighting system and style were.

Well, yeah, games should try to be good. Otherwise there's no point and people won't buy them. But I think "good" is broad enough that it includes games from both ends of the spectrum, from Morrowind (or FF6, I suppose, if you prefer) to Katamari Damacy.

[Wyborn]

Actually, I think I brought up something of an important point - if you find yourself insulted by the games, simply don't buy them. No point getting upset over what you perceive as a lack of taste in the majority of gamers who partake in these small but sweet delights, especially when their activities in no way obligate you to play the games yourself.

[The Missing Link]

Ah, Boo, I had forgotten how (seemingly) eclectic your gaming preferences were. X) Either way, I think that Microsoft has shown a definite push towards courting genres that were not strong on the original Xbox (e.g., all things RPGs). And I personally believe that's what sells a console anyways: good games over a large genre space. Otherwise, Call of Duty 9 will be going toe to toe against Battlefield 3042, Metal of Honor 12, Halo 7, and three baker's dozen more FPSes for supremacy, and that's too much of a good thing. (Not that those are knocks against any of those genres mind; I just think the market is a wee bit oversaturated with FPSes at the moment.) All in all, this spells good things for Microsoft down the road, and that would do much to reign in Sony's arrogance... and it is possible--given how badly their company is doing right now in every other market--that they might be crushed under the behemoth weight that they have become.

(By the way, the video of Metal Saga is awesome.)

--

Codie, let's put it this way. Never, since the dawn of the Atari (and likely before that), has every game been for everyone. (Except Pong; everyone likes Pong.) I was never a fan of Pitfall for my old 2600, even though many of my friends loved the game. So it is true with the WarioWare series. Is it the greatest game in the world? Heavens no; such things are reserved for Tales of Symphonia, Chrono Trigger, and A Link to the Past. But is it still enjoyable to play? In my humble opinion, that and more. Granted, though I haven't pulled out WarioWare Touched in a while, I went through a very heavy period of playing that game non-stop. (It was actually what interrupted my winter-long obsession with Mario Kart DS.) You may not like it, and you have every reason to your opinion. Be that as it may, if people didn't like it, it would've stopped with its debut title on the GBA. (Economics is a harsh mistress indeed.)

So if you feel like a spurned lover or something and caught WarioWare in bed cheating on you with its harem of Katamari, Elebits, and Wii Sports, go ahead, be a playah hater. (You'll have no complaints from me.) But let me enjoy the games I like to play, dammit. Because I'm sure that there's some game that you obsessively fangirl over that I would not only not give the time of day to but would also throw into the middle of I-675, run over it several times, hire a tank to give it that extra special justice, and then bury whatever hadn't been reduced to subatomic particles. (Wyborn, if I've missed a step in the above game destruction process, feel free to chime in.)

[The Doctor]

Originally Posted by The Missing Link

(Except Pong; everyone likes Pong.)

I never liked Pong.

[Golden Ganon]

Originally Posted by CodieKitty

He doesn't mean just delay it, he means totally cancel it for the Gamecube, something that's looking more and more likely.

That my friend, deserves this:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

[CaptHayfever]

^^But you're the deadman.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

[Booyakasha]

Originally Posted by The Missing Link

I personally believe that's what sells a console anyways: good games over a large genre space.

Believe it all you want; that doesn't make it so. Case in point--Nintendo. People don't 'get N' because they're expecting a wide variety of gaming styles (and if they do, they deserve to get slapped around with a dead fish).

Otherwise, Call of Duty 9 will be going toe to toe against Battlefield 3042, Metal of Honor 12, Halo 7, and three baker's dozen more FPSes for supremacy, and that's too much of a good thing. (Not that those are knocks against any of those genres mind; I just think the market is a wee bit oversaturated with FPSes at the moment.)

Can't say I've noticed. Anyway, the whole 'too much of a good thing' idea is sort of alien to my worldview as a gamer (remember, you're talking to the original 'Dynasty Warriors' fanatic, here).

[Codiekitty]

Originally Posted by Wyborn

They don't make anyone pay money for anything. People buy it of their own volition.

Originally Posted by Wyborn

Actually, I think I brought up something of an important point - if you find yourself insulted by the games, simply don't buy them. No point getting upset over what you perceive as a lack of taste in the majority of gamers who partake in these small but sweet delights, especially when their activities in no way obligate you to play the games yourself.

Something I wrote for an upcoming article on my site:

[On Sigma Star Saga]
The Forgotten World was a pleasant throwback to the first wave of GBA games, in that it's so dark it's impossible to even see what the hell is going on. Maybe even worse, because Circle of the Moon wasn't so dark it forced me to finish the game on my Game Boy Player/DS.

After I wrote that, I imagined you saying "But nobody's FORCING you to finish the game!"

Originally Posted by Prince Toad

I've never heard of Vagrant Story, but whatever.

Click to view video.

Really, I'd say that the majority of games are fun time-wasters-- that's their nature.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, but didn't you say earlier that you viewed them as art?

How much brain power and creativity? More than you'd think. Maybe the premises themselves aren't complicated, but they aren't not something that you'd just sit down and think of right away. Once they'd gotten the idea for WarioWare, then churning out microgames probably wasn't that hard. But first they had to say, "What if we make a game whose gameplay is based entirely around 200 5-second 'microgames?' " That takes a lot of creativity. And then after they got the idea, they had to execute the idea in such a way that people have a good time playing it. The idea behind Katamari Damacy isn't complicated, but it is in fact very creative, and it makes a good game.

It probably took much less creativity, in fact, to come up with Super Smash Bros., for instance, than it did to come up with either WarioWare or Katamari. "Let's throw all the famous Nintendo mascots into an arena and have them fight" isn't very creative at all, if you think about it-- although, of course, the actual fighting system and style were.

Except I didn't say "come up with", I said "make".

How much brainpower and creativity does it take to come up with a game about a ninja? None. How much intelligence and creativity does it take to create the Tate system, a sword that will kill you if you don't move your ass and/or effectively destroy your enemies, design awesome bosses not only in apperance but in the actual fight, and place enemies so the player can think of how to take out the weaker enemies to power up the sword to take down stronger enemies easier, or hack them all down in the time limit to perform a flashy Tate which is rewarded with very much needed time before your cursed sword makes a snack of your soul? A lot.

How much brainpower and creativity does it take to come up with a game about fighting monsters? None. How much intelligence and creativity does it take to implement an extremely complex battle system consisting of monster type, weapon element, and weapon type, plus a limb system where you have to decide if you want to inflict extra damage by hitting the arm which is weak against the weapon your using or disable their magic by crippling the head which is resistant to the weapon you're using, plus stackable timed combos with a wide variety of effects, plus a meter that fills as you fight which gives you more problems the higher it gets whether lowering your accuracy or causing you to take more damage or reducing room for error on your combo timing, that oozes with strategies, and depending on your chosen strategy the final boss could take five minutes or two hours, plus a very intriguing and well written story, plus cube puzzles better than anything I've seen in Zelda? A lot.

How much brainpower does it take to come up a game where you roll a ball around, and as it collects things it gets bigger and you can collect bigger things? Okay, maybe some. How much creativity does it take to make level design that was probably copied from some real location in Japan and throw some crap around? None.

Originally Posted by The Missing Link

Codie, let's put it this way. Never, since the dawn of the Atari (and likely before that), has every game been for everyone. (Except Pong; everyone likes Pong.) I was never a fan of Pitfall for my old 2600, even though many of my friends loved the game. So it is true with the WarioWare series. Is it the greatest game in the world? Heavens no; such things are reserved for Tales of Symphonia, Chrono Trigger, and A Link to the Past. But is it still enjoyable to play? In my humble opinion, that and more. Granted, though I haven't pulled out WarioWare Touched in a while, I went through a very heavy period of playing that game non-stop. (It was actually what interrupted my winter-long obsession with Mario Kart DS.) You may not like it, and you have every reason to your opinion. Be that as it may, if people didn't like it, it would've stopped with its debut title on the GBA. (Economics is a harsh mistress indeed.)

So if you feel like a spurned lover or something and caught WarioWare in bed cheating on you with its harem of Katamari, Elebits, and Wii Sports, go ahead, be a playah hater. (You'll have no complaints from me.) But let me enjoy the games I like to play, dammit. Because I'm sure that there's some game that you obsessively fangirl over that I would not only not give the time of day to but would also throw into the middle of I-675, run over it several times, hire a tank to give it that extra special justice, and then bury whatever hadn't been reduced to subatomic particles. (Wyborn, if I've missed a step in the above game destruction process, feel free to chime in.)

Congratulations to you all for completely missing everything I've said.


Where are these lemmings going? The Super Nintendo Super Shire! Hop in line and follow them there!