Twilight Princess release date. Good news and bad news. - Page 5 - VGF

**Prince Toad** · 10-06-2006, 02:36 PM

This is insane. Are Madden games pieces of art? How about GTA games? Wii Sports? Duck Hunt? That makes no sense. Go ahead, try and throw out some ridiculous explanation for each of those. Duck Hunt is a game, and a good game, but you would have to bend every piece of intuition and logic in the human mind to construe it as a piece of art. I know you'll do that because you've picked a position and aren't going to change it, so I want to hear how. Go ahead. Don't forget the other games too.

Codiekitty · 10-06-2006, 03:35 PM

I've been doing some meditating. My definition is false, but I don't know how to word myself now.

Is Jackass art? Sure. It's both comedy and a testament to human stupidity.

Is a kid jumbling some words together art? Why not? Chimpanzees, cats, and even elephants can make art (and not just paintings, I once saw on Animal Planet that there was an elephant music album), so why can't a little kid?

And really...

Food is art. Sure, a McDonald's hamburger isn't as well done as platters you see in cookbooks, but there's still something there (and then there's how they advertise it).

Clothing is art.

Dancing is art.

Homer Simpson screwing up a grill is art.

Fighting is art, be it Karate, boxing, or wrestling.

Lining umbrellas by a highway and flooding a city are art.

The Chinese and Japanese writing system is art.

Haven't there been Oriental philosiphers who've said trees are art?

Greeks believed the human body was art.

Romans believed war, love, education and their government were art.

I'm sure there have been people who've said sex is art.

"Art has never been made for profit" is a load of crap. Nevermind Da Vinci was paid to do the Mona Lisa. Oh yeah, nobody ever made a movie with some hopes of getting some money out of it, yet people are still charged to see it for some reason. But the truth is art is made for profit all the time. Clothing designers want money for their work. Many bodybuilders sculpt their bodies for money (Jay Cutler even said he does it for financial stability) and/or fame. And those elephant paintings? They were sold for money. Okay, it went towards elephant conservation, but it was still for money. Then there's non-monetary profit. Greeks made statues of and temples to the gods to please them and receive a prosperous life in return (which could include wealth!). Food is made to to be an enjoyable way to satisfy hunger (well, okay, as well as somebody who puts a lot of effort into the presentation of the food wanting money for their work). Dancing is not only good excercise but is said to be one way of testing fertility, so a good dancer can snag a husband/wife. Homer flooded Springfield for fame.

And really, what defines Shadow of the Colossus, Okami, and Killer 7 as art while Super Mario Bros, Shinobi, Contra, Castlevania, R-Type, and basically every other video game ever made are all disposable entertainment?

Where are these lemmings going? The Super Nintendo Super Shire! Hop in line and follow them there!

**Prince Toad** · 10-06-2006, 03:46 PM

The same freaking thing that differentiates the "poem" I will now write, which is as follows:

This poem is f***ing art, deal with it.
Horse and buggy.
Pumpkins!

...from the Aeneid.

It's not about being open-minded, it's about not being dumb and accepting crap on the pretense that you want to be open-minded. You know what else? Dogs can't understand romantic love, some people are inherently smarter than others, and there is an objective standard of beauty. And why is that? Because dogs do not have higher mental functions; because of genetics; and, well, also because of genetics. Just like I don't have to accept these things so I can pretend I'm being open-minded, I don't have to accept that Jackass is art, and I don't have to accept that Madden games are a work of art. Those are dumb claims that go against your and everyone else's intuition. You're just making them so that you can go along with this philosophy you've arbitrarily chosen, which you are doing so you don't have to admit you're wrong. Of course, you're free to do that any time; just say that not all video games are art. I'm admitting that some of them can be. It's ridiculous that you would not concede even this much.

Also, learn your history. The Greeks thought that the human body was a beautiful thing which was worthy of study, honing, and praise; that doesn't mean they thought it was art. I have no idea where you got the idea that Romans thought education and government were art.

You're confusing two meanings of the word. "Art" can be, well, you know... the Mona Lisa, or the 1812 Overture, or the Lord of the Rings trilogy, or things like that. But an "art" can also be a skill. For instance, the Art of War isn't about war being a thing of beauty. (I know because I've read it like half a dozen times, don't argue with me here.) It's about, well, the skills of leadership and strategy. In the same way, Romans thought that oratory was an art, but not Mona-Lisa-type art. It was a skill.

Whoa, I missed this before:

"Lining umbrellas by a highway and flooding a city are art."

No, that's stupid pretentious bull****.

Codiekitty · 10-06-2006, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

But, Romans, never forget that government is your medium!

Be this your art--to practice men in the habit of peace...

Okay, so he didn't say education was art, but "civilizing" people. My bad.

I'm sorry for having trouble seeing somebody else's point of view when (A) I'm having somebody else's opinion shoved down MY throat, and (B) I feel like I'm arguing with a thesaurus instead of another person.

What, you've never seen that episode of the Simpsons about that grill, where the woman talks about art?

Where are these lemmings going? The Super Nintendo Super Shire! Hop in line and follow them there!

**Prince Toad** · 10-06-2006, 05:37 PM

A thesaurus? I didn't use too many thesaurus-y (erudite?) words that post. If you mean the thing about "art," I made a perfectly valid point, and I stand by it. Those are two basic definitions of the same word. What I said still stands.

Okay, I suppose I'm being a bit unreasonable. Sorry for that. But I can't honestly see how you can seriously consider those games to be art. You didn't tell me.

Two things about the Virgil quote. First, I take Latin, and the word I assume Virgil used-- ars, artis-- came up on some practice exam we took. I thought it meant art as well, but apparently it meant discipline or skill-- the second definition of our word "art." Anyway, even if he used a different word, just looking at the English, it seems like he's saying "Let this be your skill..." You know, basically telling the Romans to be good at governing, not to somehow make government into art. Still the second definition.

Codiekitty · 10-06-2006, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince Toad

A thesaurus? I didn't use too many thesaurus-y (erudite?) words that post. If you mean the thing about "art," I made a perfectly valid point, and I stand by it. Those are two basic definitions of the same word. What I said still stands.

No, I mean how you have to use words like "pretentious" and "intuition" and "concede" all the time. Oh, now "erudite". Have you ever read George Orwell's Politics and the English Language? If not, you really should.

Quote:

Okay, I suppose I'm being a bit unreasonable. Sorry for that. But I can't honestly see how you can seriously consider those games to be art. You didn't tell me.

The art of sports games is the art of war; leadership over your team and strategy to beat the other side. Even real sports are like war; sure, nobody's dying, but people are still fighting and strategizing and leading each other and somebody comes out the victor in the end.

Duck Hunt is still the art of war. You're strategizing where the ducks are going (since they do kind of zig-zag), and killing them like a soldier would his opponent (I've never said I thought it was great art, and in fact I think it's a horrible game)

Where are these lemmings going? The Super Nintendo Super Shire! Hop in line and follow them there!

**Prince Toad** · 10-06-2006, 06:19 PM

Pretentious, intuition, and concede are not fancy words. I have fancy words, but I don't use them much unless I'm inspired to do so. "Erudite" was a joke, which is why it was in parentheses, had a question mark, and came after a word I was making up. Duh.

Strategy isn't art. War isn't art. War is war. Maybe it's an art, i.e. a skill, but it's not art, an expression of emotions or whatever. And anyway, you don't strategize in Duck Hunt, you make guesses based on your perceptions and then fire. If you think there is strategy in Duck Hunt, you don't know what strategy is.

**Wyborn** · 10-06-2006, 08:08 PM

I would post

But Prince Toad has it mostly covered.

There's a difference between saying somehting like "I practice my art every day", which might mean you go out and shovel crap for a living, and saying "I went and made some art today," which could mean you took said crap and turned it into something that means something.

The Art of War, again, is not an art in the sense you are thinking, it is a skill. Same word, two entirely different meanings.

That's why I said videogames are an "art form" (Ebert would argue they are not) and that not every single instance of them will be art. There is a difference.

And that brings up an interesting point - if all videogames are art (and by your definition they are), why bother complaining about things like WarioWare? They're sitll art, which means you have less room to call the game "bad" because it's meant to appeal to someone who's not you. I hate to do this, but...

But don't let me pointing this out draw your attention from my other points, and from PT's: you are willfully blending together two different meanigns of the word "art".

The Missing Link · 10-06-2006, 08:44 PM

I'm sorry. My cats crapping in their litter box, EVEN IF they happened to randomly create a picture of George Washington, is not art.

***CaptHayfever*** · 10-07-2006, 12:19 AM

Quote:

It's not about being open-minded, it's about not being dumb and accepting crap on the pretense that you want to be open-minded.

But I'm NOT accepting it.
I still offhandly dismiss the Madden rehashes without a second thought; I still think morons who line umbrellas along the highway are pretentious twits, and I still maintain that David Blaine is more of a wannabe-Fear Factor contestant than a magician.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

**Prince Toad** · 10-07-2006, 01:17 AM

^I was talking to CK.

As for you, I would hesitate to call that thing TML made "art," or Street Fighter for that matter. But at least that's debatable, so I'll respect your opinion. I can't really fathom how Madden games can be construed as art. I can see how some pretentious jerkoff could consider the umbrella thing art, but it reeks of expensive bull**** to me. I hate how those dumb artists get huge grants to build their massive, retarded displays, instead of, you know, schools or charities or whatever receiving money to actually, like, help society.

Jace Mario · 10-07-2006, 07:02 PM

Sweet. The gamcube version comes out on my birthday.

Golden Ganon · 10-08-2006, 07:53 PM

There might not even be a gamecube version.

The Missing Link · 10-08-2006, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killer ganon

There might not even be a gamecube version.

Yes, Virginia, there IS a GameCube version.

**Booyakasha** · 10-09-2006, 04:26 PM

TML's probably tried it out already, thanks to his friends on the inside.

Golden Ganon · 10-09-2006, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Missing Link

Yes, Virginia, there IS a GameCube version.

Thank the lord!

Mr. Andy_Man · 11-15-2006, 05:12 PM

*sigh* Oh well, i guess ill have to wait another couple weeks for the GC version to come out.

MC Luigi · 11-15-2006, 06:09 PM

^ A lesson I learned in my noobish days of VGF was to NOT BUMP.

**Booyakasha** · 11-15-2006, 06:59 PM

^If it's still on the first page, it's fair game. You seem like a good kid, so I'll give you some friendly advice--quit acting like the Bump/Spam Gestapo. Mods are necessary; mini-mods are neither necessary nor especially wanted.

10-06-2006, 03:35 PM	#82
Codiekitty Just Another Face in Red Jumpsuit Join Date: May 2001 Location: Lemmingland Gender: Posts: 19,143 Thanks: 121 Thanked 175 Times in 120 Posts Points: 41,830.72 Bank: 3,021,450.74 Total Points: 3,063,281.46 Donate	I've been doing some meditating. My definition is false, but I don't know how to word myself now. Is Jackass art? Sure. It's both comedy and a testament to human stupidity. Is a kid jumbling some words together art? Why not? Chimpanzees, cats, and even elephants can make art (and not just paintings, I once saw on Animal Planet that there was an elephant music album), so why can't a little kid? And really... Food is art. Sure, a McDonald's hamburger isn't as well done as platters you see in cookbooks, but there's still something there (and then there's how they advertise it). Clothing is art. Dancing is art. Homer Simpson screwing up a grill is art. Fighting is art, be it Karate, boxing, or wrestling. Lining umbrellas by a highway and flooding a city are art. The Chinese and Japanese writing system is art. Haven't there been Oriental philosiphers who've said trees are art? Greeks believed the human body was art. Romans believed war, love, education and their government were art. I'm sure there have been people who've said sex is art. "Art has never been made for profit" is a load of crap. Nevermind Da Vinci was paid to do the Mona Lisa. Oh yeah, nobody ever made a movie with some hopes of getting some money out of it, yet people are still charged to see it for some reason. But the truth is art is made for profit all the time. Clothing designers want money for their work. Many bodybuilders sculpt their bodies for money (Jay Cutler even said he does it for financial stability) and/or fame. And those elephant paintings? They were sold for money. Okay, it went towards elephant conservation, but it was still for money. Then there's non-monetary profit. Greeks made statues of and temples to the gods to please them and receive a prosperous life in return (which could include wealth!). Food is made to to be an enjoyable way to satisfy hunger (well, okay, as well as somebody who puts a lot of effort into the presentation of the food wanting money for their work). Dancing is not only good excercise but is said to be one way of testing fertility, so a good dancer can snag a husband/wife. Homer flooded Springfield for fame. And really, what defines Shadow of the Colossus, Okami, and Killer 7 as art while Super Mario Bros, Shinobi, Contra, Castlevania, R-Type, and basically every other video game ever made are all disposable entertainment? Where are these lemmings going? The Super Nintendo Super Shire! Hop in line and follow them there! Last edited by CodieKitty; 10-06-2006 at 03:45 PM.

10-06-2006, 03:46 PM	#83
Prince Toad PC Mod Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rookery Gender: Posts: 11,394 Thanks: 42 Thanked 56 Times in 47 Posts Points: 42,284.88 Bank: 15,935.33 Total Points: 58,220.21 Donate	The same freaking thing that differentiates the "poem" I will now write, which is as follows: This poem is f*ing art, deal with it. Horse and buggy. Pumpkins! ...from the Aeneid. It's not about being open-minded, it's about not being dumb and accepting crap on the pretense that you want to be open-minded. You know what else? Dogs can't understand romantic love, some people are inherently smarter than others, and there is an objective standard of beauty. And why is that? Because dogs do not have higher mental functions; because of genetics; and, well, also because of genetics. Just like I don't have to accept these things so I can pretend I'm being open-minded, I don't have to accept that Jackass is art, and I don't have to accept that Madden games are a work of art. Those are dumb claims that go against your and everyone else's intuition. You're just making them so that you can go along with this philosophy you've arbitrarily chosen, which you are doing so you don't have to admit you're wrong. Of course, you're free to do that any time; just say that not all video games are art. I'm admitting that some of them can be. It's ridiculous that you would not concede even this much. Also, learn your history. The Greeks thought that the human body was a beautiful thing which was worthy of study, honing, and praise; that doesn't mean they thought it was art. I have no idea where you got the idea that Romans thought education and government were art. You're confusing two meanings of the word. "Art" can be, well, you know... the Mona Lisa, or the 1812 Overture, or the Lord of the Rings trilogy, or things like that. But an "art" can also be a skill. For instance, the Art of War isn't about war being a thing of beauty. (I know because I've read it like half a dozen times, don't argue with me here.) It's about, well, the skills of leadership and strategy. In the same way, Romans thought that oratory was an art, but not Mona-Lisa-type art. It was a skill. Whoa, I missed this before: "Lining umbrellas by a highway and flooding a city are art." No, that's stupid pretentious bull*. Last edited by Prince Toad; 10-06-2006 at 03:53 PM.*

10-07-2006, 01:17 AM	#91
Prince Toad PC Mod Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rookery Gender: Posts: 11,394 Thanks: 42 Thanked 56 Times in 47 Posts Points: 42,284.88 Bank: 15,935.33 Total Points: 58,220.21 Donate	^I was talking to CK. As for you, I would hesitate to call that thing TML made "art," or Street Fighter for that matter. But at least that's debatable, so I'll respect your opinion. I can't really fathom how Madden games can be construed as art. I can see how some pretentious jerkoff could consider the umbrella thing art, but it reeks of expensive bull**** to me. I hate how those dumb artists get huge grants to build their massive, retarded displays, instead of, you know, schools or charities or whatever receiving money to actually, like, help society. Last edited by Prince Toad; 10-09-2006 at 12:56 PM.

10-09-2006, 04:26 PM	#95
Booyakasha Mod of War Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Wisconsinland Gender: Posts: 6,812 Thanks: 75 Thanked 338 Times in 220 Posts Points: 9,356.64 Bank: 20,637.07 Total Points: 29,993.71 Donate	TML's probably tried it out already, thanks to his friends on the inside. __________________ Boo--the only dude bad enough to rescue the president

11-15-2006, 06:59 PM	#99
Booyakasha Mod of War Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Wisconsinland Gender: Posts: 6,812 Thanks: 75 Thanked 338 Times in 220 Posts Points: 9,356.64 Bank: 20,637.07 Total Points: 29,993.71 Donate	^If it's still on the first page, it's fair game. You seem like a good kid, so I'll give you some friendly advice--quit acting like the Bump/Spam Gestapo. Mods are necessary; mini-mods are neither necessary nor especially wanted. __________________ Boo--the only dude bad enough to rescue the president Last edited by Booyakasha; 11-15-2006 at 07:10 PM.

10-06-2006, 02:36 PM	#81
Prince Toad PC Mod Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rookery Gender: Posts: 11,394 Thanks: 42 Thanked 56 Times in 47 Posts Points: 42,284.88 Bank: 15,935.33 Total Points: 58,220.21 Donate	This is insane. Are Madden games pieces of art? How about GTA games? Wii Sports? Duck Hunt? That makes no sense. Go ahead, try and throw out some ridiculous explanation for each of those. Duck Hunt is a game, and a good game, but you would have to bend every piece of intuition and logic in the human mind to construe it as a piece of art. I know you'll do that because you've picked a position and aren't going to change it, so I want to hear how. Go ahead. Don't forget the other games too.

10-06-2006, 05:37 PM	#85
Prince Toad PC Mod Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rookery Gender: Posts: 11,394 Thanks: 42 Thanked 56 Times in 47 Posts Points: 42,284.88 Bank: 15,935.33 Total Points: 58,220.21 Donate	A thesaurus? I didn't use too many thesaurus-y (erudite?) words that post. If you mean the thing about "art," I made a perfectly valid point, and I stand by it. Those are two basic definitions of the same word. What I said still stands. Okay, I suppose I'm being a bit unreasonable. Sorry for that. But I can't honestly see how you can seriously consider those games to be art. You didn't tell me. Two things about the Virgil quote. First, I take Latin, and the word I assume Virgil used-- ars, artis-- came up on some practice exam we took. I thought it meant art as well, but apparently it meant discipline or skill-- the second definition of our word "art." Anyway, even if he used a different word, just looking at the English, it seems like he's saying "Let this be your skill..." You know, basically telling the Romans to be good at governing, not to somehow make government into art. Still the second definition.

10-06-2006, 06:19 PM	#87
Prince Toad PC Mod Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Rookery Gender: Posts: 11,394 Thanks: 42 Thanked 56 Times in 47 Posts Points: 42,284.88 Bank: 15,935.33 Total Points: 58,220.21 Donate	Pretentious, intuition, and concede are not fancy words. I have fancy words, but I don't use them much unless I'm inspired to do so. "Erudite" was a joke, which is why it was in parentheses, had a question mark, and came after a word I was making up. Duh. Strategy isn't art. War isn't art. War is war. Maybe it's an art, i.e. a skill, but it's not art, an expression of emotions or whatever. And anyway, you don't strategize in Duck Hunt, you make guesses based on your perceptions and then fire. If you think there is strategy in Duck Hunt, you don't know what strategy is.

10-06-2006, 08:08 PM	#88
Wyborn Zelda Mod Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: All over the place Gender: Posts: 12,325 Thanks: 85 Thanked 439 Times in 270 Posts Points: 13,486.55 Bank: 67,396.13 Total Points: 80,882.68 Donate	I would post But Prince Toad has it mostly covered. There's a difference between saying somehting like "I practice my art every day", which might mean you go out and shovel crap for a living, and saying "I went and made some art today," which could mean you took said crap and turned it into something that means something. The Art of War, again, is not an art in the sense you are thinking, it is a skill. Same word, two entirely different meanings. That's why I said videogames are an "art form" (Ebert would argue they are not) and that not every single instance of them will be art. There is a difference. And that brings up an interesting point - if all videogames are art (and by your definition they are), why bother complaining about things like WarioWare? They're sitll art, which means you have less room to call the game "bad" because it's meant to appeal to someone who's not you. I hate to do this, but... But don't let me pointing this out draw your attention from my other points, and from PT's: you are willfully blending together two different meanigns of the word "art".

10-06-2006, 08:44 PM	#89
The Missing Link Professional Lurker Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: New Hyrule, Washington, US Gender: Posts: 15,573 Thanks: 80 Thanked 183 Times in 110 Posts Points: 5,553.15 Bank: 51,115.11 Total Points: 56,668.26 Donate	I'm sorry. My cats crapping in their litter box, EVEN IF they happened to randomly create a picture of George Washington, is not art.

10-07-2006, 07:02 PM	#92
Jace Mario Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Australia Gender: Posts: 1,466 Thanks: 59 Thanked 19 Times in 17 Posts Blog Entries: 1 Points: 3,860.09 Bank: 13,981.30 Total Points: 17,841.39 Donate	Sweet. The gamcube version comes out on my birthday.

10-08-2006, 07:53 PM	#93
Golden Ganon Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: North Dakota, U.S. Gender: Posts: 3,396 Thanks: 38 Thanked 67 Times in 60 Posts Points: 8,507.60 Bank: 101.02 Total Points: 8,608.62 Donate	There might not even be a gamecube version.

11-15-2006, 05:12 PM	#97
Mr. Andy_Man Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Right Behind You with a Knife Gender: Posts: 99 Thanks: 12 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post Points: 4,804.13 Bank: 25.80 Total Points: 4,829.93 Donate	sigh Oh well, i guess ill have to wait another couple weeks for the GC version to come out.

11-15-2006, 06:09 PM	#98
MC Luigi Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: In YO FACE Gender: Posts: 1,026 Thanks: 41 Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts Points: 8,274.60 Bank: 22,265.90 Total Points: 30,540.50 Donate	^ A lesson I learned in my noobish days of VGF was to NOT BUMP.