A Series of Questions Posed to you all....

[Bomby]

^ Similar in the mannerisms, except on the opposite end of the morals spectrum. I'm no expert of Westerns (I've started to compile a list of ones I need to see), but I've seen a few of Clint Eastwood's movies, and I know of his style. In fact, Meiko Kaji, the star of the Lady Snowblood films which I mentioned earlier and have probably made 200+ references to at VGF since I've seen the first one, has often been compared to Eastwood because of the fact that her characters rarely talk, but rather speak through facial expressions and actions. So if that helps you out in any way of trying to figure how I'm imagining Link in this would-be Zelda film...

[Big Daddy]

1) action
2)dunno,never played the game
3)no
4)yes
5)no

[The Missing Link]

Originally Posted by Bomby

Wittier Response A: Legend of Zelda is MADE IN JAPAN, by JAPANESE PEOPLE. True, it is not the 1970's, but compare Kill Bill to Lady Snowblood. Watch the Lone Wolf and Cub series. The Japanese films still stand the test of time.
Wittier Response B: Fist you criticize me for mentioning movies from the 70's, then you post a list of movies I should aspire it to be like which mostly consists of even older movies! Not to mention that list only covers American films, most of them being made by Hollywood, originality's biggest enemy. Hollywood is fundamentally incapable of creating a decent action film.
Wittier Response C: Monty Python? Please! You need to step your game up.

If it "imitates" anything, it should be like a far less explicit Lone Wolf and Cub, with a bit of a lighter tone.

Alright, alright. :P So let me counter with a serious question then for you to consider.

If Link did not speak in a movie that you saw, which would be your first thought?
(a) "Holy cow, that is some deep stuff! Just like those Japanese 1970s films! They did some deep film studying and really wanted to match that film style... and as such they're making a HUGE artistic expression by setting up their movie like that!"
(b) "Oh... I get it. It's an inside Zelda joke. Link doesn't speak. Ha ha. Yeah."

I'm, of course, talking about a vaporware poll when I say this, but if you were to take a fictional poll of all gamers who would have watched this so-far vaporware movie, a good 97% of them wouldn't have realised that A was even an option, and, out of that little percentage leftover, 90% upwards would still answer B without thinking about it.

A similar poll amongst those unfamiliar with the series would have equal parts answering (c), which would be, "What the hell? That guy mute or something!? I don't understand!"

Because, and let's be absolutely honest with ourselves, the only reason the question is even on the TABLE is because Link doesn't exactly get the dialogue in the games, and someone wants to mimic that. I, for one, think it would be a much more... significant tribute to Zelda to consider the storytelling elements of the game within a movie rather than merely pop some inside joke in there for nothing more than a gimic to mimic the game.

[Calypso]

Originally Posted by The Missing Link

Alright, alright. :P So let me counter with a serious question then for you to consider.

If Link did not speak in a movie that you saw, which would be your first thought?
(a) "Holy cow, that is some deep stuff! Just like those Japanese 1970s films! They did some deep film studying and really wanted to match that film style... and as such they're making a HUGE artistic expression by setting up their movie like that!"
(b) "Oh... I get it. It's an inside Zelda joke. Link doesn't speak. Ha ha. Yeah."

I'm, of course, talking about a vaporware poll when I say this, but if you were to take a fictional poll of all gamers who would have watched this so-far vaporware movie, a good 97% of them wouldn't have realised that A was even an option, and, out of that little percentage leftover, 90% upwards would still answer B without thinking about it.

A similar poll amongst those unfamiliar with the series would have equal parts answering (c), which would be, "What the hell? That guy mute or something!? I don't understand!"

Because, and let's be absolutely honest with ourselves, the only reason the question is even on the TABLE is because Link doesn't exactly get the dialogue in the games, and someone wants to mimic that. I, for one, think it would be a much more... significant tribute to Zelda to consider the storytelling elements of the game within a movie rather than merely pop some inside joke in there for nothing more than a gimic to mimic the game.

I would like to add however, that we can only have Link speak in or at certain points that are crucial. Perhaps not make him entirely mute, but definitely not having him spew full 10 minute long monologues either. You also have to consider that this movie is aimed towards the HUGE fanbase behind Zelda, which will understand why he doesn't speak. It's not about pleasing the entire world, it's about appeasing the fans who, if this isn't done right, will rip the director, cast, crew, and anyone else associated with the film to shreds.

As to you saying something along riding the coattails of OoT, I understand where you're coming from however, crafting a coherent storyline from OoT is not as simple as it may appear. While the main plotline is throughly and well explained, there's a lot of room there to play each game in a different way. Not to mention explaining (in coherent storytelling) how Link somehow amazingly finds theses magical tools that will aid him in defeating Ganondorf hidden in chests all over the countryside.

I simply chose OoT because it seemed to be Zelda's "revival" game, or at the very least one of the most popular versions. Do not consider this an attack on you or your answer by the way, I'm just simply explaining the way I see it. Which is what Bomby did when he mentioned the silent character working in japanese films.

[The Missing Link]

Originally Posted by Calypso

I would like to add however, that we can only have Link speak in or at certain points that are crucial. Perhaps not make him entirely mute, but definitely not having him spew full 10 minute long monologues either. You also have to consider that this movie is aimed towards the HUGE fanbase behind Zelda, which will understand why he doesn't speak. It's not about pleasing the entire world, it's about appeasing the fans who, if this isn't done right, will rip the director, cast, crew, and anyone else associated with the film to shreds.

There is a fan-video of LoZ out there already (I don't know if you've seen it) called The Legend
of Link, or LoL for short. (You can see where that's going.) Suffice to say that this fan-movie is very much what you're talking about as a "for the fans" video. However, this movie is billed as 90% comedy with a few serious bits; outside of the one or two battle scenes, there's nothing to be taken seriously. In this film, Link is--as you're suggesting--completely mute. And yes, it is darn funny; the inside joke really carries through to us gamers. I get it; that's great that they did it that way; ha ha.

But I have a very esoteric taste when it comes to movies (and video games), and one of the qualifications of it is this: The presentation of the work must be consistent with the work's theme. In other words, if you're going to make a hilarious film, you need to present it in a way where jokes abound. If you want to present a game which uses cartoon physics, then the world must feel cartoony along with the presentation. (This is why I liked Wind Waker a lot.) To me, if we're talking about a serious OoT remake, a movie that really takes OoT to great heights, the ha-ha factor of Link being mute is completely inconsistent with that theme. Fans will get it, but it will soon prove, I personally believe, to be a distraction away from the story that you have worked so very hard to present.

Link not speaking in the games IS part of that game's theme; the games want you to pretend that you were the hero, to connect with Link. I don't think the same can ever be done with a non-satire on The Legend of Zelda.

As to you saying something along riding the coattails of OoT, I understand where you're coming from however, crafting a coherent storyline from OoT is not as simple as it may appear. While the main plotline is throughly and well explained, there's a lot of room there to play each game in a different way. Not to mention explaining (in coherent storytelling) how Link somehow amazingly finds theses magical tools that will aid him in defeating Ganondorf hidden in chests all over the countryside.

Let me first say that I do know how hard it is to make a coherent story for the game. Been there, done that. Anyone who seeks to do it and achieves moderate success: Gold star for them.

My problem is that basing any of the Zelda titles near word for word off of the games I believe would make a very bad screenplay. (Yes, I know of The Hero of Time project, and while I support them rather fully, I think that this is a concept that really can only fit within a fan-movie setting. There's two forces at work behind my thoughts on this. First, there's a general rule that any video game made into a movie will suck automatically, and any movie made into a video game will suck automatically. It's not true 100% of the time, but it is the general tendency... and it's more true for video games-turned-movies.

Secondly, and this is the same gripe I was going to have with the vaporware Metroid movie that will likely never get made, so much of the experience of a Zelda game requires the player to undergo quests by him or herself... in short, adventuring. There have been very few times (Majora's Mask Kafei quest, Wind Waker end battle, ...) where Link has "teamed up" with anyone to do any single feat. And while I realise that characters will be shown in other segments of the game (e.g., Malon from Lon Lon when Link goes there), these will be few and far between. I mean, let's look at a supposed outline of a movie that strictly followed the plot of OoT:

Kokiri Forest, Forest Temple, Hyrule Castle, Death Mountain, Dodongo's Cavern, Zoras(!), Jabu-Jabu, Hyrule Castle, Master Sword
Rauru, Kakariko, Lost Woods, Forest Temple, Death Mountain, Fire Temple, Zora's Domain, Ice Cavern, Water Temple, Kakariko, Shadow Temple, Gerudo Desert, Wasteland, Child Link Spirit Temple, Adult Link Spirit Temple, Zelda, Ganon's Castle, Ganondorf, Ganon.

Now while there's a lot to pull from, you've got EIGHT dungeons in that list for Link to go through, and by the time we get to the Fire Temple, I'm going to be bored out of my mind. Link can't interact with anyone in a dungeon (unless you're changing things and having X go with him... except for maybe Ruto in Jabu-Jabu'S Belly, which realistically has been a stretch since Day One--a dungeon inside a fish!?). It's going to be a movie of Link-does-this, Link-does-that, ooh-watch-Link-some-more, Link-kills-stuff, Link-does-stuff, OMG-he's-done-three-seconds-of-plot-now! It's incredibly boring from a movie perspective where plot takes on the primary role of the movie... which is different from the crux of adventuring in the Zelda game.

Not saying it can't be done, but any sensible, theoretical screenplay writer would be ripping pages out from OoT and adapting it HEAVILY to make it something someone wanted to watch. And the way I figure, if so much of it is going to be something that's not in line with the game, go ahead and make your own story anyways.

I simply chose OoT because it seemed to be Zelda's "revival" game, or at the very least one of the most popular versions. Do not consider this an attack on you or your answer by the way, I'm just simply explaining the way I see it. Which is what Bomby did when he mentioned the silent character working in japanese films.

I know why you chose OoT. Personally, I feel that OoT is overrated on several fronts, and that's not a debate to bring up in this thread. However, I feel it noteworthy to say that EVERYONE has used OoT as a basis for everything ever since it's creation back in 1998 (or whatever year it is), and the fact that fans keep obsessively turning back to that game (and that game ALONE--how many Oracles, LttP, LA, or WW fanfiction do you see in the world?) for their only inspiration has caused me to become tired of the references. It was actually one of my few gripes about Twilight, then it kept returning to the Ocarina motif, almost as a very strong nod to the game that made Zelda have it's "so-called revival".

So for a professional movie to do it again? No thanks. I would watch it, and maybe it would surprise me in the way that Lord of the Rings did. (I didn't think LotR would be THAT good.) However, I would be rolling my eyes from teaser trailer until release.

[Bomby]

Originally Posted by The Missing Link

If Link did not speak in a movie that you saw, which would be your first thought?
(a) "Holy cow, that is some deep stuff! Just like those Japanese 1970s films! They did some deep film studying and really wanted to match that film style... and as such they're making a HUGE artistic expression by setting up their movie like that!"
(b) "Oh... I get it. It's an inside Zelda joke. Link doesn't speak. Ha ha. Yeah."

You... just... don't... get it... do you?

Link not speaking, or rather barely speaking at all, is not an inside joke - it's an integral part of his character. People didn't laugh at Clint Eastwood for being mostly silent in his films, people didn't laugh at the Lone Wolf, people didn't laugh at Meiko Kaji, and people won't laugh at a silent Link.

Having a silent Link would bring an artistic quality to the movie that not only has proven time and time again to work in the movies, but is also true to the game itself. Giving Link loads of dialogue is not only giving the movie a Hollywood water-down job, but is simply not characteristic of him or the Zelda series. I would want the movie to have the same feel as the games. If it's done correctly, nobody will see it as an inside joke, give or take a few shallow fans.

I'm not saying he should be completely mute, but his character should have very little dialogue overall.

[Booyakasha]

I'm going to interject here. (At great length--none of that 'HEY! LISTEN!' crap, I promise.)

First of all, I realise that all the kooky gadgets are important to the games, but, in a movie, they're going to have to fall by the wayside for the sake of plot. Especially the 'wow, it's lucky I found that thing right before I ended up needing it to kill that cyclopean monstrosity' factor. Seriously, that's just bad storytelling--people would have thrown 'The Two Towers' right across the room if Sam and Frodo had just happened to find the Phial of Galadriel in a chest (complete with instruction manual) right outside Shelob's lair.

Secondly, Link needs to talk. Let's be brutally honest here--Link talks in the games. We may not see it, but look at the evidence--he has friends. He has dialogue options. When people are speaking with him, they don't say, 'Hey, what's your problem, Legolas? I'm talking here--how about you say something back every so often, if only to reassure me that I didn't strike up a conversation with a corpse again?' (except all old timey--'Y rede ye speke, sirrah Lynke; owt woostow speken merres wal an deyn legges ybrowken wast?' [Wait, maybe that's too old timey.]) Purists might grumble, but they'll feel better when they realise that the movie is actually watchable.

[Bomby]

...

... I have a feeling my concept of "Silent Link" is being highly misunderstood...

...

I NEVER SAID THAT LINK SHOULD NOT TALK AT ALL.

I said that his character should have very little dialogue. There's a difference. Booya's example is going far beyond what I was going towards to the extent of being hyperbole.

[Booyakasha]

My response was addressed to the topic as a whole. Also, I exaggerated my example beyond reason for comedic effect, as is my wont. Didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers--if I did, I apologise humbly and deeply. My ancestors are surely spinning in their graves, if not rising right up out of them in consternation. Just to be on the safe side, I'd better go commit hara-kiri immediately, lest my family's good name be tainted by my shameful actions. (See? I'm at it again. When will I ever learn?)

[Bomby]

^

Sorry, I have a habit of defending myself too readily.

[The Missing Link]

Originally Posted by Bomby

You... just... don't... get it... do you?

Link not speaking, or rather barely speaking at all, is not an inside joke - it's an integral part of his character.

Uhm... no.

First off, let me go off into this melodramatic and highly metaphysical discussion of just who Link is. Go ahead, ask yourself the question. Who is Link? Don't read any further until you have a good answer in mind.

Got an answer then? Good. No matter what answer you've come up with, your answer is correct. However, my answer, which I can be nearly certain in saying that it is different than yours, is also correct. The point here is that Link doesn't have a flushed out characterisation in ANY of the Zelda games. He gets to say zero lines of dialogue. He gets limited facial expressions limited mostly to cutscenes. And the solitary aspect of his character which IS locked in stone is that he's willing to go risk his life to save the world. That's all you, I, or the girl next door knows about Link. Suffice to say, you can't tell me what my image of Link's character should be, and if you think you can, I dare you to go read about ten fanfictions revolving around Link; I'd bet my set of Deku-made golf clubs that you'll at least find five different personalities in that mix.

So what is Link not speaking then? Simply nothing other than a plot device or gimmick. Nintendo to date has not wanted to force any characterisation onto Link because they want you, the player, to come up with your own view of who Link is. The same, for the most part, goes for every other character out there. Nearly every character is a stock character, someone with only one visible personality dimension to them, someone who can easily be fleshed out in a more involved story (i.e., fanfiction and the like). To wit, your next point:

People didn't laugh at Clint Eastwood for being mostly silent in his films, people didn't laugh at the Lone Wolf, people didn't laugh at Meiko Kaji, and people won't laugh at a silent Link.

Because that IS a part of their characters, and I'm not talking about the actors that played them, but the characters themselves. I'd bet just on a show of hands here in this forum that people wouldn't say that Link, from a personality/characterisation standpoint, is rather silent, even on average. Again, I point you to the LoL movie (linked in my previous post), and I dare you to say that they made the decision to have Link not speak as an artistic design rather than some inside joke amongst Zelda fans.

As for the rest of it, I'd say that Boo did a good job summarising my thoughts on the matter. The whole premise of a movie--and I can say this because I do have some experience in the business--is that there must be a tangible, flowing story and interesting, well-developed characters. The whole "true to the game" rationale for defending your thesis is neither of the two (notice how the movie Doom was "not true to the game" as it did not have just one person going through level after level killing stuff), leaving your invented characterisation of Link to do battle with the predispositions of thousands, if not millions, of other Zelda fans.

[Bomby]

Damn, son... don't throw that "you killed my daddy so aaargh must decapitate" type of post at me.

You make a good point out of the "interpretation of character," but consider this:

Just for a second, juxtapose Link's so called "lack of characterization" to another video game character, let's say Mario. We know what Mario is like because his character is yelling "whippee" and "whoohoo" all throughout the latter Mario games. He speaks with a cartoonishly stereotypical faux-Italian American accent, he dreams about lasagna when you leave him sitting there long enough, he's rather happy go lucky, but at the same time extremely bashful when Princess Peach kisses him on the nose. It is safe to assume that if a Mario movie were to be made, the character of Mario would take on these characteristics

Link on the other hand, even after the switch to more realistic games with room for depth of characters, for the most part remained extremely stoic and mysterious. We don't know what is going on inside his head, what he's thinking. Like you said, we can only assume what his character is like on the inside.

In the same way that being a rather comical Italian stereotype is a part of Mario's character, being stoic and mysterious is a part of Link's character. Giving Link a ton of dialogue is obviously much more likely to ruin a fan's personal image of what his character is like and should be like than keeping him rather quiet throughout the film, and unless the viewer likes how the film portrays Link more than how they had previously imagined him, it is far less likely that he or she would enjoy the film.

That is all.

[The Missing Link]

Originally Posted by Bomby

In the same way that being a rather comical Italian stereotype is a part of Mario's character, being stoic and mysterious is a part of Link's character. Giving Link a ton of dialogue is obviously much more likely to ruin a fan's personal image of what his character is like and should be like than keeping him rather quiet throughout the film, and unless the viewer likes how the film portrays Link more than how they had previously imagined him, it is far less likely that he or she would enjoy the film.

That is all.

I have just four words for you:

"Well, excuuuuuuuuse me, princess."

I think that characterisation firmly debunks that said hero is required to be stoic. (And I'll note that that cartoon had Nintendo's seal of approval on it, to boot.)

[Calypso]

Originally Posted by The Missing Link

I have just four words for you:

"Well, excuuuuuuuuse me, princess."

I think that characterisation firmly debunks that said hero is required to be stoic. (And I'll note that that cartoon had Nintendo's seal of approval on it, to boot.)

But was that show a drama? Forget that, doesn't matter anyway. I think that everyone agrees that Link SHOULD speak at some point or another, how much is entirely dependent on the screenwriter.

[The Missing Link]

Originally Posted by Calypso

But was that show a drama? Forget that, doesn't matter anyway. I think that everyone agrees that Link SHOULD speak at some point or another, how much is entirely dependent on the screenwriter.

Then that's good. Because you've basically said what I said in my first post.

[Bomby]

Originally Posted by The Missing Link

I have just four words for you:

"Well, excuuuuuuuuse me, princess."

I think that characterisation firmly debunks that said hero is required to be stoic. (And I'll note that that cartoon had Nintendo's seal of approval on it, to boot.)

Good point, but it should also be noted that The Legend of Zelda show was made many years before OoT, which this "movie" is supposed to be based off of, back when the games were just 8-bits, which had no room to add any emotional basis to the characters. One would wonder why Link didn't have this same "attitude" in later games when the technology to add emotional depth to characters had been developed. Hmm...

[The Missing Link]

Originally Posted by Bomby

Good point, but it should also be noted that The Legend of Zelda show was made many years before OoT, which this "movie" is supposed to be based off of, back when the games were just 8-bits, which had no room to add any emotional basis to the characters. One would wonder why Link didn't have this same "attitude" in later games when the technology to add emotional depth to characters had been developed. Hmm...

Hmm... let's see. Which of these answers do you want me to give:

(a) Because Nintendo still doesn't let Link deliver a line of dialogue that might, you know, be a clue as to what he's thinking or how he acts?
(b) Because Nintendo hasn't made another Zelda cartoon and/or anything else beside a game that would force them to give Link some emotional depth?
(c) Because Nintendo doesn't want to force some characterisation of Link upon their players because the players could hate that interpretation, so they want the players to make that decision for themselves?
(d) Because Nintendo thinks that players can infer enough from the facial expressions in more recent games to fill in the gaps they leave from top to bottom?
(e) Because Nintendo, if they ARE trying to make him Mr. Stoic Hero, is doing a piss-poor job of expressing it clearly and unequivocally to the player since, you know, Link doesn't really say anything to those ends?
(f) All of the above?

Face it. You have zero proof that Link is some stoic character. You have your interpretation of the facts, but that's all it is: an interpretation. So if you want to keep on dragging this battle out, we can do so ad infinitum because there's no one right answer, as I said back there... and as you acknowledged but then subsequently tried (and are still trying) to dissuade me from.

The thesis from my very first post in this topic, that it would be a sucky movie if Link didn't speak at all, which, I might add, is not what you've been debating me on, has been repeated by nearly everyone in this topic, yourself included, which means that (gasp!) I made a good point early on. Now you can either bow to my opinion that we all have the right to put our own characterisations upon Link... or you can keep trying to concoct some silly proof that says Link has to be stoic... which I will then proceed to destroy. The choice is yours.

[Link The Survivor]

Hm, most of what TML has been saying - I have to admit - seems one of the better suggestions with regards to a Zelda movie. And I have to agree with Crav, I'm surprised to see you again Calypso. Don't suppose you're still mad at me, for whatever it was I did. Never did quite figure that out. Hope you're not at any rate.