The Always-Dreaded Timeline Debate Thread

Bomby · 12-01-2006, 11:00 PM

Yes, this forum needs a bit of a revival, and what better way to do so than by having a good ol' timeline debate?

Remember: There is no right or wrong answer, just a well or poorly supported answer.

I'll post mine in a half an hour... a TV show that I actually want to watch is about to come on.

The Missing Link · 12-01-2006, 11:48 PM

I'm still trying to work out Twilight's position since it messes just about any theory up right now, but outside of it:

OoT-MM | WW | FS-LttP-OoS-OoA-LA-FSA | LoZ-AoL | MC

Don't feel like writing up a "why" at the moment. Will get to that when I'm more inspired.

Bomby · 12-02-2006, 12:36 AM

I will not be including TP in mine, simply because I haven't played it and don't know much about the plot, etc. For that same reason, I am unable to place either of the Four Swords games.

Most people will not agree with my timeline theory, and I'm sure my inconsistencies will probably be pointed out. I took a certain huge liberty with Link to the Past not only because it fit but because I noticed similarities between in and OoT as soon as I first played OoT.

So here it is, my underdeveloped timeline theory:

Link I:

1. OoT/LttP
In my time line, OoT and LttP are actually the same story told differently. Ocarina of Time is the "true" story of what happened, Link to the Past is the "folklore" version of the story, romanticized by later generations to make it seem more interesting. This is mostly due to the fact that the set up of the games is similar, and though there are some differences in the story line, the games follow an almost identical path.
2. Majora's Mask
No Explanation needed.
3. The Minish Cap
This game was extremely difficult to place for three conflicting reasons: Link and Zelda already know each other in the beginning (can't take place before OoT), Malon and Talon appear (has to take place with same Link as OoT), Link's discovery of his hat (had to take place before OoT). As you can see, difficult.
4. Link's Awakening
Because of the overall theme of a dream and the fact that many of the characters and plot devices in this game are reflections of those from the LttP/OoT storyline, it is my theory that Link was dreaming and saw people that he knew Wizard of Oz style.

Link I procreates with Malon.

Link II:

1. Legend of Zelda
2. Adventure of Link
3. Oracle of Seasons/Ages

Link II marries Zelda

Link III:

(Link III is totally unrelated to Link I & II)

1. Wind Waker
A lot of people put Wind Waker early in their timelines, but I am putting it as part a later one simply because of the fact that Hyrule is underwater, and there is no evidence of Hyrule having been flooded in any of the other games that take place in Hyrule. We know that Ganon has already been sealed and there are fears that he might return.
2. Phantom Hourglass
It's a sequel to Wind Waker.

The Missing Link · 12-03-2006, 03:22 AM

My theory currently goes with five Links:

LINK I:

Ocarina - Future gets erased with Link being sent back in time; Ganondorf stuck in Spiritual Realm while looking for the Triforce in "Child Link's time". Also the Imprisoning War from LttP's manual.
Majora

LINK II:

Waker - My ending is modified ever so slightly by adding the scene written in the first few paragraphs of Chapter 18 of the BoM

LINK III:

Link to the Past - Ganon seduces Agahnim to break free of the Dark World; Ganon dies
Four Swords - Link and Zelda know each other in this game
Seasons - Slight variation to this game; assuming that Link and Zelda actually know each other when in the game they do not. However, it's good timing for this game since Link does have the entire Triforce.
Ages - I like Ages second because Link's arrival in Holodrum seems much for sudden (dropped from the sky and left unconscious) rather than Labrynna (comes up from the shore, presumably from a ship). Anyways, Ganon is revived by the witches (which didn't die in Ocarina since the future was overwritten).
Awakening - Coming home on a ship. It makes sense.
Four Swords Adventures - Other than the fact that this seems to be a (re-)introduction for Ganondorf, I'm going to guess that this is just a look back through Ganondorf's past perhaps (i.e., the Trident). It's a hard one to place because it introduces so much oddities, but I think there are workarounds for it.

INTERLUDE

AoL's Backstory

LINK IV

LoZ - After some great catastrophe
AoL

LINK V

Minish Cap - Because I honestly believe that the Picori Sword is the same as the previous versions of the Four Sword.

jigglypuffer · 12-03-2006, 10:02 AM

I believe the Four Swords series, along with Minish Cap, should belong in their own seperate timeline, with their own Links and Zeldas. Their storylines are completely unrelated to the Triforce saga. But of course, giving them a time of occurence in relation to the other games can be done.

Also, Minish Cap is quite obviously a prequel to Four Swords.

Bomby · 12-03-2006, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Missing Link

Ages - I like Ages second because Link's arrival in Holodrum seems much for sudden (dropped from the sky and left unconscious) rather than Labrynna (comes up from the shore, presumably from a ship). Anyways, Ganon is revived by the witches (which didn't die in Ocarina since the future was overwritten).
Awakening - Coming home on a ship. It makes sense.

Wow, I never even noticed that connection. Makes sense, though.

The Missing Link · 12-03-2006, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jigglypuffer

Also, Minish Cap is quite obviously a prequel to Four Swords.

It's certainly a possibility that MC can be before FS. However, I don't think it's required to be.

I wrote an article about the placement of MC with relation to the other games over at ZeldaBlog. It's called The Four Swords Paradox, and it shows that MC has evidence to support it being before FS/FSA and after FS/FSA. To excerpt my article:

Quote:

Despite the global acceptance of the theory [that Minish Cap precedes Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures], certain problems arise… flaws in the theory that people tend to ignore.

1. The Life and (maybe) Death of Vaati — At the beginning of Four Swords, Vaati is trapped within the Four Sword, having been sealed away by some other hero. At the end of Minish Cap, he was engulfed in explosions that would put a Fourth of July fireworks finale to shame.

2. The Blade that was Broken — Call it a gameplay mechanic if you will, but the Four Sword just doesn’t work the same way in Minish as it did in the other two. As the legend goes, “It is said that the body of one who touches this blade will be shattered to pieces” (Zelda, Four Swords). Nothing about illusionary ghost-men that appear when you stand on funny looking tiles.

3. How Much Is that Linkie in the Window? — In Minish, both in the introduction of the game and then within the Elemental Sanctuary, there are stained glass windows depicting the legend of the Four Sword. Holding up the sword in one is a blond-haired kid wearing a green dress skirt kilt tunic. But… I thought I was the first Link to hold this thing! Right? Right??

4. And You Thought Internet Dating Was Bad? — The prestory to Four Swords was Vaati going off and kidnapping every maiden in sight. (And to think we praise the use of that little blue pill, too.) His mission in Minish Cap? Turning women into stone so he could find this Light Force… thing… Yeah, that’s going to win over the ladies. [I brought this up as a criticism because an MC-FS-FSA timeline would be Vaati underselling his ability in the second game, from him to worry about world domination to then just resort to kidnapping the ladies.]

So much for easy.

So let’s take it the other way. (Timeliners out there, humour me for just a moment. And then humour me some more if I’m not finished by then.) What if Minish was last?

“Oh no, TML, we can’t have that. Because…”

1. Eyes in the Back of His Head — When we first meet the Wind Mage in Four Swords, he’s pretty much a big Sauron ripoff… a floaty… eye… ball… thingy. In Minish, he’s magically humanoid again, or more aptly an ex-Minish, only to go back to the eyeball thingy. (Stupid mage changes his mind more than Oprah.)
2. The Four Sword, Mach Two? — With Four Swords (or Adventures for that matter) first, obviously the Four Sword existed prior to the prestory of either game. Yet Minish Cap somehow… creates… the Four Sword (and only then after you get through the Two Sword and the Three Sword).
3. I’m sure you get the idea already…

So much for that.

Don’t even try putting it in the middle either. Trust me, it’s worse than either of these.

Pretty much, the Four Swords series is all sorts of messed up as references purposefully cast to other games in just that series alone makes it such that virtually nothing fits. As such, the way I view it is that it can go either MC-FS-FSA or FS-FSA-MC. The key to deciding which way each timeliner wants to do it is deciding which set of criticisms to the two theories can more easily be worked around.

Personally, I feel as if the criticisms to the MC-FS-FSA storyline impede the flow of a coherent story more than the FS-FSA-MC despite the fact that MC seems to be a Vaati prestory. As such, I just work around it and (liberally) apply some artistic license to make it work. But that's just my take.

Pieist · 12-09-2006, 02:35 PM

My theory contains info about TP...so don't read if you haven't played it yet

Link I- Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask

Between Link I and Link II- The Light Sages return Ganon from the Sacred Realm to execute him for his crimes. Ganon however still has the Triforce of Power and kills a sage and he is sealed away to the Twilight Realm, where he is later revived.

Link II- Twilight Princess

Between Link II and Link III- A wizard casts a sleeping spell on Zelda and the Triforce of Courage is hidden somewhere in Northern Hyrule. Years later Ganon is somehow revived and steals the Triforce of Power, throwing the country into an Age of Chaos.

Link III- Legend of Zelda, Adventure of Link

Between Link III and Link IV- Sometime after the events of AoL Link is killed by Ganon's henchmen and his blood is sprinkled on Ganon's ashes. When Link died the Triforce of Courage was split into shards and went into hiding. Without the hero to be there the Hylians could do nothing but appeal to the gods. The gods seal Hyrule away under the sea.

Link IV- Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass

Between Link IV and Link V- A new Hyrule is founded after years of searching. The founders of the new country put the Triforce back into the Sacred Realm. A century later Ganon once again is revived and breaks into the Sacred Realm. This starts the conflict known as the Imprisoning War. Ganon is sealed inside the realm and the seven wise men forge a new Master Sword.

Link V- A Link to the Past, Oracle of Seasons, Oracle of Ages, Link's Awakening

As you see I chose not to include the Four Swords games and the Minish Cap for continuity's sake...even though the continuity isn't very good anyway.

12-01-2006, 11:00 PM	#1
Bomby VGF's Resident Lennonist Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Caught beneath the landslide in a champagne supernover in the sky Gender: Posts: 15,544 Thanks: 234 Thanked 716 Times in 454 Posts Blog Entries: 4 Points: 7,869.50 Bank: 5,150,329.34 Total Points: 5,158,198.85 Donate	The Always-Dreaded Timeline Debate Thread Yes, this forum needs a bit of a revival, and what better way to do so than by having a good ol' timeline debate? Remember: There is no right or wrong answer, just a well or poorly supported answer. I'll post mine in a half an hour... a TV show that I actually want to watch is about to come on.

12-01-2006, 11:48 PM	#2
The Missing Link Professional Lurker Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: New Hyrule, Washington, US Gender: Posts: 15,755 Thanks: 108 Thanked 317 Times in 215 Posts Points: 17,581.91 Bank: 154,938.35 Total Points: 172,520.26 Donate	I'm still trying to work out Twilight's position since it messes just about any theory up right now, but outside of it: OoT-MM \| WW \| FS-LttP-OoS-OoA-LA-FSA \| LoZ-AoL \| MC Don't feel like writing up a "why" at the moment. Will get to that when I'm more inspired.

12-02-2006, 12:36 AM	#3
Bomby VGF's Resident Lennonist Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Caught beneath the landslide in a champagne supernover in the sky Gender: Posts: 15,544 Thanks: 234 Thanked 716 Times in 454 Posts Blog Entries: 4 Points: 7,869.50 Bank: 5,150,329.34 Total Points: 5,158,198.85 Donate	I will not be including TP in mine, simply because I haven't played it and don't know much about the plot, etc. For that same reason, I am unable to place either of the Four Swords games. Most people will not agree with my timeline theory, and I'm sure my inconsistencies will probably be pointed out. I took a certain huge liberty with Link to the Past not only because it fit but because I noticed similarities between in and OoT as soon as I first played OoT. So here it is, my underdeveloped timeline theory: Link I: 1. OoT/LttP In my time line, OoT and LttP are actually the same story told differently. Ocarina of Time is the "true" story of what happened, Link to the Past is the "folklore" version of the story, romanticized by later generations to make it seem more interesting. This is mostly due to the fact that the set up of the games is similar, and though there are some differences in the story line, the games follow an almost identical path. 2. Majora's Mask No Explanation needed. 3. The Minish Cap This game was extremely difficult to place for three conflicting reasons: Link and Zelda already know each other in the beginning (can't take place before OoT), Malon and Talon appear (has to take place with same Link as OoT), Link's discovery of his hat (had to take place before OoT). As you can see, difficult. 4. Link's Awakening Because of the overall theme of a dream and the fact that many of the characters and plot devices in this game are reflections of those from the LttP/OoT storyline, it is my theory that Link was dreaming and saw people that he knew Wizard of Oz style. Link I procreates with Malon. Link II: 1. Legend of Zelda 2. Adventure of Link 3. Oracle of Seasons/Ages Link II marries Zelda Link III: (Link III is totally unrelated to Link I & II) 1. Wind Waker A lot of people put Wind Waker early in their timelines, but I am putting it as part a later one simply because of the fact that Hyrule is underwater, and there is no evidence of Hyrule having been flooded in any of the other games that take place in Hyrule. We know that Ganon has already been sealed and there are fears that he might return. 2. Phantom Hourglass It's a sequel to Wind Waker.

12-03-2006, 03:22 AM	#4
The Missing Link Professional Lurker Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: New Hyrule, Washington, US Gender: Posts: 15,755 Thanks: 108 Thanked 317 Times in 215 Posts Points: 17,581.91 Bank: 154,938.35 Total Points: 172,520.26 Donate	My theory currently goes with five Links: LINK I: Ocarina - Future gets erased with Link being sent back in time; Ganondorf stuck in Spiritual Realm while looking for the Triforce in "Child Link's time". Also the Imprisoning War from LttP's manual. Majora LINK II: Waker - My ending is modified ever so slightly by adding the scene written in the first few paragraphs of Chapter 18 of the BoM LINK III: Link to the Past - Ganon seduces Agahnim to break free of the Dark World; Ganon dies Four Swords - Link and Zelda know each other in this game Seasons - Slight variation to this game; assuming that Link and Zelda actually know each other when in the game they do not. However, it's good timing for this game since Link does have the entire Triforce. Ages - I like Ages second because Link's arrival in Holodrum seems much for sudden (dropped from the sky and left unconscious) rather than Labrynna (comes up from the shore, presumably from a ship). Anyways, Ganon is revived by the witches (which didn't die in Ocarina since the future was overwritten). Awakening - Coming home on a ship. It makes sense. Four Swords Adventures - Other than the fact that this seems to be a (re-)introduction for Ganondorf, I'm going to guess that this is just a look back through Ganondorf's past perhaps (i.e., the Trident). It's a hard one to place because it introduces so much oddities, but I think there are workarounds for it. INTERLUDE AoL's Backstory LINK IV LoZ - After some great catastrophe AoL LINK V Minish Cap - Because I honestly believe that the Picori Sword is the same as the previous versions of the Four Sword.

12-03-2006, 10:02 AM	#5
jigglypuffer Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Sweden Gender: Posts: 1,970 Thanks: 25 Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts Points: 1.00 Bank: 21,393.18 Total Points: 21,394.18 Donate	I believe the Four Swords series, along with Minish Cap, should belong in their own seperate timeline, with their own Links and Zeldas. Their storylines are completely unrelated to the Triforce saga. But of course, giving them a time of occurence in relation to the other games can be done. Also, Minish Cap is quite obviously a prequel to Four Swords.

12-09-2006, 02:35 PM	#8
Pieist Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: In a graveyard Gender: Posts: 1,272 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Points: 2,787.01 Bank: 500.00 Total Points: 3,287.01 Donate	My theory contains info about TP...so don't read if you haven't played it yet Link I- Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask Between Link I and Link II- The Light Sages return Ganon from the Sacred Realm to execute him for his crimes. Ganon however still has the Triforce of Power and kills a sage and he is sealed away to the Twilight Realm, where he is later revived. Link II- Twilight Princess Between Link II and Link III- A wizard casts a sleeping spell on Zelda and the Triforce of Courage is hidden somewhere in Northern Hyrule. Years later Ganon is somehow revived and steals the Triforce of Power, throwing the country into an Age of Chaos. Link III- Legend of Zelda, Adventure of Link Between Link III and Link IV- Sometime after the events of AoL Link is killed by Ganon's henchmen and his blood is sprinkled on Ganon's ashes. When Link died the Triforce of Courage was split into shards and went into hiding. Without the hero to be there the Hylians could do nothing but appeal to the gods. The gods seal Hyrule away under the sea. Link IV- Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass Between Link IV and Link V- A new Hyrule is founded after years of searching. The founders of the new country put the Triforce back into the Sacred Realm. A century later Ganon once again is revived and breaks into the Sacred Realm. This starts the conflict known as the Imprisoning War. Ganon is sealed inside the realm and the seven wise men forge a new Master Sword. Link V- A Link to the Past, Oracle of Seasons, Oracle of Ages, Link's Awakening As you see I chose not to include the Four Swords games and the Minish Cap for continuity's sake...even though the continuity isn't very good anyway.