Alright. So let's talk about The Legend of Zelda

Erdawn Il Deus · 02-10-2008, 03:11 PM

Alright, so, those of you who know me - and there are probably few of you, I never forrayed into the Zelda Forum territory much - used to be an active member in the BF - all that's besides the point. I've been trolling the Let's Talk About topics - MM and WW specifically, and noted how little anyone really talks about the older games here.

SPECIFICALLY:

You know, as much as I love the Zelda series, Miyamoto dissapoints me consistently with the linearity of each game - of course there are side-quests but hold off a moment. In the series' namesake, you were plopped down the middle of a harsh and unforgiving wilderness (a Hyrule prehistoric for the lack of people anywhere

), without any clear idea of where to go. That's what I'm getting at folks. Nobody knew where the hell to go. You were given a map along with the instruction manual but without it the game was such an experience simply through exploring it I've yet to find a parallel somewhere (where SOTC failed, and failed miserably - you knew where you had to go). It's like modern gaming's forgot the simple joy of discovery.

Now a lot will look at 8-bits and think i'm retarded but remember this is an era where 8-bits was a ****ing lot. De-imagine your fluffy Gamecube for a second and believe that the eerie tune to the dungeons was a funeral dirge to the inexperienced and walking into a dungeon room to be assailed by a new kinds of pixelated monsters was just as nerve-wracking as being set upon by zombie hordes in RE4. Nowadays, it's irritating - but believe you me when Nintendo was king it was scary as ****, especially when you were younger.

The fact of the matter is that you could go wherever you wanted - items allowing (some portions of the map were closed off unless you had the item, of course). Finding the entrance to a dungeon was a hell of a thing. You told your friends about it. I remember back when Level 9 was a myth and nobody knew where it was. That's the kind of thing we're missing - beating dungeon 2 before dungeon 1, or accidently stumbling on dungeon 6 and getting RAPED by the monsters inside.

Now, for discussion?

Parts of the map you had trouble with -
dungeons,
bosses,
that ****ing old man,
secret tunnels/entrances,
items,
stuff from this game you'd like to see later in the series maybe?
Cool enemies,
getting in way over your head (Death Mountain, natch, those lynelim horse-guys were so ****ing badass).
****ing Wallmaster: Always located a room away from the boss, where its shrieks would thunder through the stone wall letting you know you were a screen away from some monstrous, unknown... thing, these clutching man-sized monster hands made a re-appearance in OoT's fright0house Forest Temple - but this is where they came from, gents.

http://www.gamerhelp.com/nes/LegendofZelda/109744.gif

Here's a map, for help in remembering where stuff was. i'm kind of wondering how much attention this topic will garner. How many people can play this game and remember what it felt like to play it back in the early 90s/late 80s when that 8-bit landscape represented something as equally endearing as the Playstation 2's Shadow of the Colossus?

Also, here's another interesting map which tentatively exlains Hyrule's lack of population (in that hyrule itself is north of Death Mountain, while these monster-haunted territories lay to its unplundered south): http://www.freewebs.com/hehehecool/z...12%5b1%5d2.JPG

Aaaah... the opening credits... I want remixes of this game's soundtrack. So mournful.

**X-3** · 02-10-2008, 03:47 PM

I've only played a bit of it, like the first dungeon or so, but it seemed rather badass and hard(I like hard). I should probably pick it back up.

Daos · 02-10-2008, 04:01 PM

Dungeon 3. It took me literally days to find where dungeon 3 was. There was no hint system, no Navi. It was all up to you to find out where to go next. Oh sure I found dungeon 5 plenty of times in my quest but that really didn't help me.
Also remember when keys you picked up in one dungeon could work in another? It was all about key preservation back then.

**S1x** · 02-10-2008, 04:17 PM

There were some things hidden during the second quest that I have no clue how anybody would ever be able to find it on their own. I don't know if I was just supposed to bomb and whistle every two steps or what.

But yeah, that thing ruled when I was younger. Exploring randomly in a really large overworld was neat enough at that time. Didn't actually beat it until I played it again on the Collector's Edition disc I got.

Erdawn Il Deus · 02-10-2008, 04:23 PM

Oh Level 3. i remember how freaky the christing Manhandla was. I want to see a throwback to that thing later - also, I miss finding pieces of the Triforce. It kind of hints towards total desperation that the Princess is hidden away i Death Mountain, her last act of freedom shattering the Triforce and hiding them in the Underworlds. No Triforce of Courage back then, either. I remember finding Level 4 and 6 TOTALLY by accident. Like, screwing around rafting and BOOM - "Whoo! LEVEl 4", or hey this is a dark and scary atmosphere. Hey a dungeon! It must be level 4! OH GOD! THEY ARE TELEPORTING!".

You were such a weak-ass at the beginning, too. I remember traveling along the edge of the east coast and it being a grueling ordeal - with three hearts and the wooden sword. I died so many times on the beaches. Like a Hylian Normandy.

The Missing Link · 02-10-2008, 04:28 PM

I have three words to say about The Legend of Zelda:

****ING LEVEL SIX. Wizzrobes can blanking die and go to hell, and I do not care if anyone disagrees with that sentiment -- you're absolutely wrong. X)

Seriously, I had no problem with any enemies in the game (other than Patra, I think, and there were thankfully only few of him) other than Wizzrobes. I preferred Blue Darknuts over Orange Wizzrobes (not to mention their Blue counterparts) when it comes down to it. I had to go on crazy rupee runs to keep affording the nice Blue Potion to get me through that level.

(And of course, then they made it worse during the Second Quest. Nrrrg. -.-)

Erdawn Il Deus · 02-10-2008, 04:39 PM

HA, rupees. No 64 enthusiast knows. You could only carry 299 rupees at one time, they were IMPOSSIBLE to come buy, and everything was so expensive. You didn't "find" the better shield. You sweat blood scraping through every Overworld screen to save up enough money to buy it, and you shopped around, because God forbid you find some hidden shopkeeper who would sell the shield for ten rupees less. Also, you used up rupees firing arrows, which I always thought was cool. I imagined for the longest time you may FIND the bow, but you made your own arrows, with sharpened rupees as arrowheads (I imagine crystal being significantly sharper than flint or stone).

Wizzrobes were easily the most fearsome opponents - darknuts being a very close second in that when I saw them I litterally wouldn't even try to kill them, armoured as they were. Nothing on the Overworld could compare. Remember Level 8? Where boss monsters from the other Levels became regular enemies? How bleak can your future be when the most gruellly challenging, horrifying, and powerful monsters for you exist in herds down in the deep places of the world. Twin Manhandlas and foraging groups of Dodongos, I tell you.

I am nobody · 02-10-2008, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erdawn Il Deus

That's the kind of thing we're missing - beating dungeon 2 before dungeon 1, or accidently stumbling on dungeon 6 and getting RAPED by the monsters inside.

Not missing this. Falling down a ReDead hole early can give you that.

I'm not far enough in either LoZ or AoL to comment on them yet.

Daos · 02-10-2008, 04:52 PM

3-D Zelda games are not NEAR as hard. Don't get me wrong I still love them but dying repeadatly in Level 9 or running out of keys and having to go BUY some more? Very mind wracking.

Erdawn Il Deus · 02-10-2008, 04:55 PM

That was a clincher. The recycling and conserving of keys - also that fact that some locked doors were useless - they led into a room perfectly accessible, either by another route. And let's not forget that when mapping the dungeons, two rooms next to each other were often accessible by bombing. Or not. Bomb conservation. The whole experience was one of desperate, dwindling ressources. The wilderness in LoZ was hostile, man. In every way.

PS - how does one get avatars around here anyway? Shane still pulling the donation card are have we finally been given liberty?

**Loot** · 02-10-2008, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erdawn Il Deus

You could only carry 299 rupees at one time,

255.

I love this game so much. It had that feel that made it superior to most other NES games. Granted, I also liked Adventure of Link as much as the first Zelda game, but this really was an adventure.

(Oh, and if you go to your Control Panel, there's an option for Avatars. There are preset avatars if you want, but nothing is as badass as Agent 47 or Ganondorf.

Thank you, Paypal.)

The Missing Link · 02-10-2008, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erdawn Il Deus

And let's not forget that when mapping the dungeons, two rooms next to each other were often accessible by bombing. Or not. Bomb conservation.

Let's not forget the invisible doors... and the even worse... invisible ONE-WAY doors.

Erdawn Il Deus · 02-10-2008, 05:57 PM

Genius.

Nintendo needs to up the ante for 3-D dungeons.

**X-3** · 02-10-2008, 06:25 PM

^Damn straight. One of TP's flaws was how it's later dungeons were either short or easy: maybe both.

Blake · 02-10-2008, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daos

3-D Zelda games are not NEAR as hard. Don't get me wrong I still love them but dying repeadatly in Level 9 or running out of keys and having to go BUY some more? Very mind wracking.

Yeah, TP did a great job in improving the AI so that enemies actually harm you when you are in battle, however they lowered the damage drastically(basically by half). They really need to bring back the difficulty of fighting enemies. Fortunately, the N64 games did a good job of this.

Personally I think I can say I'm satisfied with the dungeon ideas Nintendo does come up with, but their boss battles still seem redundant. When an enemy reaches a critical point of their life, the gamer should need to find a more difficult weak point to take the enemy down. Afterall, I can't imagine an enemy not learning to defend their weakpoint after two or three successive attacks executed in the same way.

The Missing Link · 02-10-2008, 07:04 PM

Part of what made the 2D Zeldas hard was that every pot/skull/whatever existed in the dungeon (provided there were any) provided you its arrows/heart/bombs/magic/fairy/whatever once and only once. You wanted to get them again? Leave the dungeon and enter again... which was really painful to do if, say, you were really deep into the dungeon.

Starting with Ocarina, they started providing regeneratable pots/grass/skulls/whatever, which meant you could -- in the case of grass -- hang out there, literally watch the grass grow, and get unlimited whatevers at random. In the case of pots or whatever, just exit the room and enter again; whammo! Instant stuff regeneration.

I have to appreciate the difficulty in Twilight gained by not letting færies be all that prevalent. However, the earlier games had no need of that either... and they were still plenty hard.

Blake · 02-10-2008, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Missing Link

I have to appreciate the difficulty in Twilight gained by not letting færies be all that prevalent. However, the earlier games had no need of that either... and they were still plenty hard.

I agree. It made potions much more useful. They have done a good job of making fairies rare in that game.

Spoiler Below

(only boss rooms unless you unlocked 'that' secret). Hah! You thought I was actually literally going to reveal THAT secret?!

Edit: Okay let me get on topic.

So how about having 8 hearts, the second level sword, and the blue ring before entering dungeon 1?! It's like having 16 heats and a double damaged sword. So badass! That's my favorite part about this game.

***Marilink*** · 02-10-2008, 07:34 PM

I love me some LoZ, man.

Except Level 6. Level 6 can go to hell.

Erdawn Il Deus · 02-10-2008, 07:37 PM

Aw yeah. The other edge of the sword was that with a little effort you could superpower yourself before doing anything significant.

**Loot** · 02-10-2008, 07:42 PM

I am so going to do the no-sword challenge.

02-10-2008, 03:11 PM	#1
Erdawn Il Deus Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Threading the jeweled thrones of earth under my sandalled feet Gender: Posts: 3,056 Thanks: 4 Thanked 47 Times in 41 Posts	Alright. So let's talk about The Legend of Zelda Alright, so, those of you who know me - and there are probably few of you, I never forrayed into the Zelda Forum territory much - used to be an active member in the BF - all that's besides the point. I've been trolling the Let's Talk About topics - MM and WW specifically, and noted how little anyone really talks about the older games here. SPECIFICALLY: You know, as much as I love the Zelda series, Miyamoto dissapoints me consistently with the linearity of each game - of course there are side-quests but hold off a moment. In the series' namesake, you were plopped down the middle of a harsh and unforgiving wilderness (a Hyrule prehistoric for the lack of people anywhere ), without any clear idea of where to go. That's what I'm getting at folks. Nobody knew where the hell to go. You were given a map along with the instruction manual but without it the game was such an experience simply through exploring it I've yet to find a parallel somewhere (where SOTC failed, and failed miserably - you knew where you had to go). It's like modern gaming's forgot the simple joy of discovery. Now a lot will look at 8-bits and think i'm retarded but remember this is an era where 8-bits was a **ing lot. De-imagine your fluffy Gamecube for a second and believe that the eerie tune to the dungeons was a funeral dirge to the inexperienced and walking into a dungeon room to be assailed by a new kinds of pixelated monsters was just as nerve-wracking as being set upon by zombie hordes in RE4. Nowadays, it's irritating - but believe you me when Nintendo was king it was scary as , especially when you were younger. The fact of the matter is that you could go wherever you wanted - items allowing (some portions of the map were closed off unless you had the item, of course). Finding the entrance to a dungeon was a hell of a thing. You told your friends about it. I remember back when Level 9 was a myth and nobody knew where it was. That's the kind of thing we're missing - beating dungeon 2 before dungeon 1, or accidently stumbling on dungeon 6 and getting RAPED by the monsters inside. Now, for discussion? Parts of the map you had trouble with - dungeons, bosses, that ing old man, secret tunnels/entrances, items, stuff from this game you'd like to see later in the series maybe? Cool enemies, getting in way over your head (Death Mountain, natch, those lynelim horse-guys were so ing badass). *ing Wallmaster: Always located a room away from the boss, where its shrieks would thunder through the stone wall letting you know you were a screen away from some monstrous, unknown... thing, these clutching man-sized monster hands made a re-appearance in OoT's fright0house Forest Temple - but this is where they came from, gents. http://www.gamerhelp.com/nes/LegendofZelda/109744.gif Here's a map, for help in remembering where stuff was. i'm kind of wondering how much attention this topic will garner. How many people can play this game and remember what it felt like to play it back in the early 90s/late 80s when that 8-bit landscape represented something as equally endearing as the Playstation 2's Shadow of the Colossus? Also, here's another interesting map which tentatively exlains Hyrule's lack of population (in that hyrule itself is north of Death Mountain, while these monster-haunted territories lay to its unplundered south): http://www.freewebs.com/hehehecool/z...12%5b1%5d2.JPG Aaaah... the opening credits... I want remixes of this game's soundtrack. So mournful. Last edited by Erdawn Il Deus; 02-10-2008 at 03:17 PM.*

02-10-2008, 03:47 PM	#2
X-3 Useful as an Owl Join Date: Jan 2004 Gender: Posts: 15,947 Thanks: 753 Thanked 1,213 Times in 790 Posts Blog Entries: 10	I've only played a bit of it, like the first dungeon or so, but it seemed rather badass and hard(I like hard). I should probably pick it back up.

02-10-2008, 04:01 PM	#3
Daos Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth Gender: Posts: 6,228 Thanks: 146 Thanked 245 Times in 179 Posts	Dungeon 3. It took me literally days to find where dungeon 3 was. There was no hint system, no Navi. It was all up to you to find out where to go next. Oh sure I found dungeon 5 plenty of times in my quest but that really didn't help me. Also remember when keys you picked up in one dungeon could work in another? It was all about key preservation back then.

02-10-2008, 04:17 PM	#4
S1x VGF RPG Mod Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Loading...... Gender: Posts: 7,289 Thanks: 26 Thanked 493 Times in 201 Posts Blog Entries: 1	There were some things hidden during the second quest that I have no clue how anybody would ever be able to find it on their own. I don't know if I was just supposed to bomb and whistle every two steps or what. But yeah, that thing ruled when I was younger. Exploring randomly in a really large overworld was neat enough at that time. Didn't actually beat it until I played it again on the Collector's Edition disc I got.

02-10-2008, 04:23 PM	#5
Erdawn Il Deus Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Threading the jeweled thrones of earth under my sandalled feet Gender: Posts: 3,056 Thanks: 4 Thanked 47 Times in 41 Posts	Oh Level 3. i remember how freaky the christing Manhandla was. I want to see a throwback to that thing later - also, I miss finding pieces of the Triforce. It kind of hints towards total desperation that the Princess is hidden away i Death Mountain, her last act of freedom shattering the Triforce and hiding them in the Underworlds. No Triforce of Courage back then, either. I remember finding Level 4 and 6 TOTALLY by accident. Like, screwing around rafting and BOOM - "Whoo! LEVEl 4", or hey this is a dark and scary atmosphere. Hey a dungeon! It must be level 4! OH GOD! THEY ARE TELEPORTING!". You were such a weak-ass at the beginning, too. I remember traveling along the edge of the east coast and it being a grueling ordeal - with three hearts and the wooden sword. I died so many times on the beaches. Like a Hylian Normandy.

02-10-2008, 04:28 PM	#6
The Missing Link Professional Lurker Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: New Hyrule, Washington, US Gender: Posts: 17,128 Thanks: 405 Thanked 606 Times in 368 Posts	I have three words to say about The Legend of Zelda: ***ING LEVEL SIX. Wizzrobes can blanking die and go to hell, and I do not care if anyone disagrees with that sentiment -- you're absolutely wrong. X) Seriously, I had no problem with any enemies in the game (other than Patra, I think, and there were thankfully only few of him) other than Wizzrobes. I preferred Blue Darknuts* over Orange Wizzrobes (not to mention their Blue counterparts) when it comes down to it. I had to go on crazy rupee runs to keep affording the nice Blue Potion to get me through that level. (And of course, then they made it worse during the Second Quest. Nrrrg. -.-)

02-10-2008, 04:39 PM	#7
Erdawn Il Deus Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Threading the jeweled thrones of earth under my sandalled feet Gender: Posts: 3,056 Thanks: 4 Thanked 47 Times in 41 Posts	HA, rupees. No 64 enthusiast knows. You could only carry 299 rupees at one time, they were IMPOSSIBLE to come buy, and everything was so expensive. You didn't "find" the better shield. You sweat blood scraping through every Overworld screen to save up enough money to buy it, and you shopped around, because God forbid you find some hidden shopkeeper who would sell the shield for ten rupees less. Also, you used up rupees firing arrows, which I always thought was cool. I imagined for the longest time you may FIND the bow, but you made your own arrows, with sharpened rupees as arrowheads (I imagine crystal being significantly sharper than flint or stone). Wizzrobes were easily the most fearsome opponents - darknuts being a very close second in that when I saw them I litterally wouldn't even try to kill them, armoured as they were. Nothing on the Overworld could compare. Remember Level 8? Where boss monsters from the other Levels became regular enemies? How bleak can your future be when the most gruellly challenging, horrifying, and powerful monsters for you exist in herds down in the deep places of the world. Twin Manhandlas and foraging groups of Dodongos, I tell you.

02-10-2008, 04:52 PM	#9
Daos Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth Gender: Posts: 6,228 Thanks: 146 Thanked 245 Times in 179 Posts	3-D Zelda games are not NEAR as hard. Don't get me wrong I still love them but dying repeadatly in Level 9 or running out of keys and having to go BUY some more? Very mind wracking.

02-10-2008, 04:55 PM	#10
Erdawn Il Deus Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Threading the jeweled thrones of earth under my sandalled feet Gender: Posts: 3,056 Thanks: 4 Thanked 47 Times in 41 Posts	That was a clincher. The recycling and conserving of keys - also that fact that some locked doors were useless - they led into a room perfectly accessible, either by another route. And let's not forget that when mapping the dungeons, two rooms next to each other were often accessible by bombing. Or not. Bomb conservation. The whole experience was one of desperate, dwindling ressources. The wilderness in LoZ was hostile, man. In every way. PS - how does one get avatars around here anyway? Shane still pulling the donation card are have we finally been given liberty?

02-10-2008, 05:57 PM	#13
Erdawn Il Deus Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Threading the jeweled thrones of earth under my sandalled feet Gender: Posts: 3,056 Thanks: 4 Thanked 47 Times in 41 Posts	Genius. Nintendo needs to up the ante for 3-D dungeons.

02-10-2008, 06:25 PM	#14
X-3 Useful as an Owl Join Date: Jan 2004 Gender: Posts: 15,947 Thanks: 753 Thanked 1,213 Times in 790 Posts Blog Entries: 10	^Damn straight. One of TP's flaws was how it's later dungeons were either short or easy: maybe both.

02-10-2008, 07:04 PM	#16
The Missing Link Professional Lurker Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: New Hyrule, Washington, US Gender: Posts: 17,128 Thanks: 405 Thanked 606 Times in 368 Posts	Part of what made the 2D Zeldas hard was that every pot/skull/whatever existed in the dungeon (provided there were any) provided you its arrows/heart/bombs/magic/fairy/whatever once and only once. You wanted to get them again? Leave the dungeon and enter again... which was really painful to do if, say, you were really deep into the dungeon. Starting with Ocarina, they started providing regeneratable pots/grass/skulls/whatever, which meant you could -- in the case of grass -- hang out there, literally watch the grass grow, and get unlimited whatevers at random. In the case of pots or whatever, just exit the room and enter again; whammo! Instant stuff regeneration. I have to appreciate the difficulty in Twilight gained by not letting færies be all that prevalent. However, the earlier games had no need of that either... and they were still plenty hard.

02-10-2008, 07:34 PM	#18
*Marilink* Gotta catch 'em all! Supermod! Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Location, Location. Gender: Posts: 29,118 Thanks: 2,535 Thanked 1,823 Times in 1,008 Posts	I love me some LoZ, man. Except Level 6. Level 6 can go to hell.

02-10-2008, 07:37 PM	#19
Erdawn Il Deus Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Threading the jeweled thrones of earth under my sandalled feet Gender: Posts: 3,056 Thanks: 4 Thanked 47 Times in 41 Posts	Aw yeah. The other edge of the sword was that with a little effort you could superpower yourself before doing anything significant.

02-10-2008, 07:42 PM	#20
Loot Apparently I'm a mod? Join Date: May 2001 Location: LEGITIMATE BUSINESS Gender: Posts: 13,208 Thanks: 236 Thanked 1,237 Times in 659 Posts	I am so going to do the no-sword challenge.