Overhead Zelda Games?

***Cosmonautical*** · 01-21-2010, 10:47 PM

To start with, I'm fiddling around with an engine similar to this. There are a lot of subtle elements that can go into a game that the game developer has to think a lot about, and the fans probably don't think too much about. On of those things is the shield element, and how it's used.

Do you guys prefer the shield to just be automatically carried around and active, like in LttP, or do you prefer the Link's Awakening style scheme, where you use a button to bring up the shield? In the LA control scheme, the shield is more useful, and can be changed out for other items, but it probably results in more chance hits from projectiles you don't expect.

Also, if there are any adventure games that you prefer the battle style to, over Zelda, what games are those? In Secret of Mana, for instance, you only take damage from contact with enemies while they are attacking. This means you can push them around and out of the way to run, if you need to.

heh · 01-22-2010, 02:14 AM

i've found the LA/oot/s shield more useful just because it seems like the lttp one doesn't block **** except for some lasers the mirror shield is designed to block. the only really intrinsic advantage to having it as a button item and not automatic is this way it can be used for other things (pushing things, flipping those charging things) without feeling weird as hell.

***Cosmonautical*** · 01-22-2010, 05:36 AM

Yeah, the pushing/etc was one of the dynamics I was most interested in. At the same time, I tend to like the whole SoM style where damage is more realistically inflicted when an enemy attacks.

ATM, I have a simple octoroc/moblin prototype AI up and running, so it seems first nature to me to have damage dealt on contact, but that doesn't have to be universal at all. If, for instance, the shield were a command to activate as in LA, I could use that to create a control scheme that maintains the direction the sprite is facing while it's active. Alternatively, I could make the direction more free form and use the mouse cursor in the control scheme, but I'd prefer a straight up d-pad directional equivalent.

Master Brian · 01-22-2010, 10:26 PM

I loved the LA's control scheme and shield. I'd stick with that.

I also prefer the whole touch enemy to take damage(unless a certain monster is programmed to not to do damage), but that's just me. It feels more challenging.

**X-3** · 01-22-2010, 10:55 PM

I never use the shield in the GB games. Unless those enemies that ram at you and need to be hit with the shield appear.

**Valigarmander** · 01-22-2010, 11:03 PM

I never really played LA. D:

But I guess it mostly depends on what kind of gameplay you're going for. Is it the typical overhead LoZ style, or are you trying a formula that's a bit different? Being able to whip the shield out when you need it as opposed to just having it out all the time. For instance (I have no idea how the LA system works), having the shield tucked away would allow for quicker and freer movement, though higher vulnerability, while having the shield out would slow your pace, but allow you to block and parry, and maybe strafe instead of move freely. I guess it also depends on if the shield is something you toggle or hold a button down to use.

Ehh, I'm probably not much help here.

***Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds*** · 01-23-2010, 12:18 AM

^ "I haven't played the best Zelda game"

Shall I mail you a copy?

**Valigarmander** · 01-23-2010, 08:39 AM

~~I'll download a ROM.~~ Nahh, I'll survive.

Glux · 01-23-2010, 08:41 AM

aLttP style would be just like Brawl. The projectile would have to hit it just right in order to stop it.

So do it LA style.

heh · 01-23-2010, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glutexo

aLttP style would be just like Brawl. The projectile would have to hit it just right in order to stop it.

So do it LA style.

except thats trivial to fix so lttp style is still a valid option

Blake · 01-23-2010, 12:38 PM

I haven't played lttp but have played Seasons/Ages and I prefer the shield when you hold the button down to use it. The disadvantage of the shield in this format is that in your typical Zelda game it makes switching out items more of a hassle. However, it makes the shield much more useful and fun to use for reasons people have mentioned above (pushing enemies/flipping them, actually having to time your attacks more carefully etc).

Random User · 01-23-2010, 01:55 PM

I prefer the sheild automatically coming out, although I don't usually block attacks with it too often. What's more I haven't played Link's Awakening, so I couldn't really give a good opinion about it's sheilding anyway, but from what it sounds like, I probably wouldn't like having to select the sheild and bring it out like any other item, it sounds like too much of a hassle.

Now I really want Link's Awakening just to give a better opinion...

1-up Salesman · 01-24-2010, 06:29 PM

The shield really only helps if you can get it out, just having it there rarely helped me.

Dizzy · 01-25-2010, 03:24 PM

The shield toggle seems to work much better for me than to have a useless shield that's out all the time. I wish I still had my copy of LADX, then I could compare.

About your other question: Maybe you can add the lock-on feature from the 3-D games? But I'm worried that might make the game too cheap.

heh · 01-25-2010, 05:15 PM

^ Besides being difficult to implement, it would also be pointless. The lock-on feature in 3D is needed because in order to make combat not feel ridiculous is that the sword had to have multiple attack animations and motions and they of course needed to scale the hitboxes. since the 3D games are more "to scale" then 2d games (where link and a small tree take up the same amount of space) the sword has to be smaller. this plus a 3d plane then causes issues with actually hitting opponents, especially when considering ranged weapons. Then since the n64 controller does not have two joysticks you can't use a first person mode to aim and move at the same time. So they thought up the lock-on thing, and made enemies avoid fire by moving fast and having shields of some sort. With the Wii remote (or the gamecube controller really) they could have removed the lock on thing and gone with first person shooting (point/use c stick to aim, control stick to move) but since the lock on mechanic works theres no reason to do that.

Also it solves camera problems by allowing you to always face a particular enemy.

in a 2d top-down game all these issues are irrelevant because all enemies are on a single plane and there are no scale issues so an arrow hitbox can be as big as a tree hitbox.

I hope you enjoyed all these confusing words that could have been explained better by someone who isn't me

Luigiman7 · 01-25-2010, 05:19 PM

oh hey the shield comes out with a button in minish cap also just sayin'

Normally, I don't use the sheild, so I forget it's there when it's automatically out. So I don't really care.

Dizzy · 01-25-2010, 05:19 PM

^^All right, I see your point, and you're right.

***Cosmonautical*** · 01-28-2010, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Guy

^ Besides being difficult to implement, it would also be pointless. The lock-on feature in 3D is needed because in order to make combat not feel ridiculous is that the sword had to have multiple attack animations and motions and they of course needed to scale the hitboxes. since the 3D games are more "to scale" then 2d games (where link and a small tree take up the same amount of space) the sword has to be smaller. this plus a 3d plane then causes issues with actually hitting opponents, especially when considering ranged weapons. Then since the n64 controller does not have two joysticks you can't use a first person mode to aim and move at the same time. So they thought up the lock-on thing, and made enemies avoid fire by moving fast and having shields of some sort. With the Wii remote (or the gamecube controller really) they could have removed the lock on thing and gone with first person shooting (point/use c stick to aim, control stick to move) but since the lock on mechanic works theres no reason to do that.

Also it solves camera problems by allowing you to always face a particular enemy.

in a 2d top-down game all these issues are irrelevant because all enemies are on a single plane and there are no scale issues so an arrow hitbox can be as big as a tree hitbox.

I hope you enjoyed all these confusing words that could have been explained better by someone who isn't me

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head there, buddy. I thought about giving the player lock-on controls, and from a gameplay standpoint, it's just unnecessary. I want the player to have the ability to use a gamepad, but if I were going to go the route of pinpoint-accuracy aiming, I'd rig up a much more fluid system with the mouse. As it is, that kind of control takes a lot of the depth out of Zelda games, and makes the action feel surprisingly rigid compared to the lack of control present in your average 4-8 direction, overhead-adventure.

The shield issue is still apparent to me, though. I'm intending on using hand-drawn frames rather than sprite art. So naturally, if I'm going to those lengths to make it look good, I can't just draw a universal "item use" stance for the protagonist like was used in Link's Awakening. So that complicates the matter of the whole shield as a selectable item - do I draw him with the shield in every sprite, or do I make two sets of every sprite, with and without the shield? So now I'm thinking there's no reason to play by the Gameboy's two-button limitations, and I should make the shield an "always on" item with its own exclusive button assignment.

Glux · 01-28-2010, 09:33 AM

Just realized the shield in Phantom hourglass is automatic also.

I like the auto-shield.

***Cosmonautical*** · 01-30-2010, 10:10 AM

Yeah, it wasn't that bad in PH, but it felt kind of forced in the few areas that it applied. I really think they need to reconsider making the items have multiple or constant applications.

There are games during the course of which you get powerups, those are usually easy to lose but tend to give you a few precious moments of godlike power. There are games like the older Zeldas where you get items that are absolutely necessary to progress, but in the meantime give you extra abilities that fill a good niche where you were lacking in defense or offense. The recent Zeldas, though, have a tendency of feeling a bit forced - the obstacles you use them to overcome tend to be forcibly contrived by being single-context items. The boomerang in Spirit Tracks? Seriously awesome. The grappling hook? Apparently you can use it to swing from identical pegs everywhere you go. But once you've got it, it's not a privilege to have to use it. You simply now have to arbitrarily swing from pegs a lot.

See what I'm getting at, here? The whole game could've pretty much been made without it, with some minor story-constrained obstacles in the way of progress, and it would've been better off for it for simply not having to pretend to make extended use of an otherwise once-off item concept.

Well, then there are the games like Super Metroid that kind of do powerups and item-upgrades all at once, and it really sticks out in my memory for it.

01-21-2010, 10:47 PM	#1
*Cosmonautical* Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I rub my tilde all over your asterisk Gender: Posts: 28,102 Thanks: 2,157 Thanked 5,338 Times in 2,433 Posts	Overhead Zelda Games? To start with, I'm fiddling around with an engine similar to this. There are a lot of subtle elements that can go into a game that the game developer has to think a lot about, and the fans probably don't think too much about. On of those things is the shield element, and how it's used. Do you guys prefer the shield to just be automatically carried around and active, like in LttP, or do you prefer the Link's Awakening style scheme, where you use a button to bring up the shield? In the LA control scheme, the shield is more useful, and can be changed out for other items, but it probably results in more chance hits from projectiles you don't expect. Also, if there are any adventure games that you prefer the battle style to, over Zelda, what games are those? In Secret of Mana, for instance, you only take damage from contact with enemies while they are attacking. This means you can push them around and out of the way to run, if you need to.

01-25-2010, 05:19 PM	#16
Luigiman7 ヽ(◔ ◡ ◔)ノ.･ﾟ*｡･+☆ Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: ~)´◡｀(~ Gender: Posts: 17,605 Thanks: 1,134 Thanked 1,012 Times in 713 Posts Blog Entries: 8	oh hey the shield comes out with a button in minish cap also just sayin' Normally, I don't use the sheild, so I forget it's there when it's automatically out. So I don't really care. __________________ ／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ＷＯＮ’Ｔ　ＹＯＵ　ＢＥＣＯＭＥ　Ａ　ＭＡＧＩＣＡＬ　ＧＩＲＬ？

01-22-2010, 02:14 AM	#2
heh Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: lo-ca-tion; Noun- 1. a place or situation occupied: That house is in a fine location Gender: Posts: 9,849 Thanks: 710 Thanked 955 Times in 628 Posts	i've found the LA/oot/s shield more useful just because it seems like the lttp one doesn't block **** except for some lasers the mirror shield is designed to block. the only really intrinsic advantage to having it as a button item and not automatic is this way it can be used for other things (pushing things, flipping those charging things) without feeling weird as hell.

01-22-2010, 05:36 AM	#3
*Cosmonautical* Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I rub my tilde all over your asterisk Gender: Posts: 28,102 Thanks: 2,157 Thanked 5,338 Times in 2,433 Posts	Yeah, the pushing/etc was one of the dynamics I was most interested in. At the same time, I tend to like the whole SoM style where damage is more realistically inflicted when an enemy attacks. ATM, I have a simple octoroc/moblin prototype AI up and running, so it seems first nature to me to have damage dealt on contact, but that doesn't have to be universal at all. If, for instance, the shield were a command to activate as in LA, I could use that to create a control scheme that maintains the direction the sprite is facing while it's active. Alternatively, I could make the direction more free form and use the mouse cursor in the control scheme, but I'd prefer a straight up d-pad directional equivalent.

01-22-2010, 10:26 PM	#4
Master Brian Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Celtland Gender: Posts: 128 Thanks: 55 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	I loved the LA's control scheme and shield. I'd stick with that. I also prefer the whole touch enemy to take damage(unless a certain monster is programmed to not to do damage), but that's just me. It feels more challenging.

01-22-2010, 10:55 PM	#5
X-3 Useful as an Owl Join Date: Jan 2004 Gender: Posts: 15,947 Thanks: 753 Thanked 1,213 Times in 790 Posts Blog Entries: 10	I never use the shield in the GB games. Unless those enemies that ram at you and need to be hit with the shield appear.

01-22-2010, 11:03 PM	#6
Valigarmander The Bee's Knees Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The land of rain and trees (Oregon) Gender: Posts: 29,755 Thanks: 1,649 Thanked 5,701 Times in 2,581 Posts Blog Entries: 20	I never really played LA. D: But I guess it mostly depends on what kind of gameplay you're going for. Is it the typical overhead LoZ style, or are you trying a formula that's a bit different? Being able to whip the shield out when you need it as opposed to just having it out all the time. For instance (I have no idea how the LA system works), having the shield tucked away would allow for quicker and freer movement, though higher vulnerability, while having the shield out would slow your pace, but allow you to block and parry, and maybe strafe instead of move freely. I guess it also depends on if the shield is something you toggle or hold a button down to use. Ehh, I'm probably not much help here.

01-23-2010, 12:18 AM	#7
*Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds* Admin "mine.. not yours. NO. MINE." Epic Ladynerd Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Forteresse de Valois Gender: Posts: 28,504 Thanks: 1,658 Thanked 1,820 Times in 1,042 Posts	^ "I haven't played the best Zelda game" Shall I mail you a copy?

01-23-2010, 08:39 AM	#8
Valigarmander The Bee's Knees Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The land of rain and trees (Oregon) Gender: Posts: 29,755 Thanks: 1,649 Thanked 5,701 Times in 2,581 Posts Blog Entries: 20	~~I'll download a ROM.~~ Nahh, I'll survive.

01-23-2010, 08:41 AM	#9
Glux Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Home Gender: Posts: 7,122 Thanks: 647 Thanked 360 Times in 236 Posts Blog Entries: 3	aLttP style would be just like Brawl. The projectile would have to hit it just right in order to stop it. So do it LA style.

01-23-2010, 12:38 PM	#11
Blake Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: A generic place such as a house Gender: Posts: 4,628 Thanks: 1,489 Thanked 206 Times in 148 Posts	I haven't played lttp but have played Seasons/Ages and I prefer the shield when you hold the button down to use it. The disadvantage of the shield in this format is that in your typical Zelda game it makes switching out items more of a hassle. However, it makes the shield much more useful and fun to use for reasons people have mentioned above (pushing enemies/flipping them, actually having to time your attacks more carefully etc).

01-23-2010, 01:55 PM	#12
Random User Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Equestrian Republic of Spanglidesh Gender: Posts: 3,562 Thanks: 321 Thanked 195 Times in 143 Posts Blog Entries: 4	I prefer the sheild automatically coming out, although I don't usually block attacks with it too often. What's more I haven't played Link's Awakening, so I couldn't really give a good opinion about it's sheilding anyway, but from what it sounds like, I probably wouldn't like having to select the sheild and bring it out like any other item, it sounds like too much of a hassle. Now I really want Link's Awakening just to give a better opinion...

01-24-2010, 06:29 PM	#13
1-up Salesman Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Letting you guys know that I'm planning on continuing Attack of the Spammers soon. Gender: Posts: 4,095 Thanks: 2,162 Thanked 250 Times in 194 Posts Blog Entries: 9	The shield really only helps if you can get it out, just having it there rarely helped me.

01-25-2010, 03:24 PM	#14
Dizzy Podiaphobe Join Date: Oct 2007 Gender: Posts: 19,359 Thanks: 1,764 Thanked 1,162 Times in 805 Posts Blog Entries: 116	The shield toggle seems to work much better for me than to have a useless shield that's out all the time. I wish I still had my copy of LADX, then I could compare. About your other question: Maybe you can add the lock-on feature from the 3-D games? But I'm worried that might make the game too cheap.

01-25-2010, 05:15 PM	#15
heh Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: lo-ca-tion; Noun- 1. a place or situation occupied: That house is in a fine location Gender: Posts: 9,849 Thanks: 710 Thanked 955 Times in 628 Posts	^ Besides being difficult to implement, it would also be pointless. The lock-on feature in 3D is needed because in order to make combat not feel ridiculous is that the sword had to have multiple attack animations and motions and they of course needed to scale the hitboxes. since the 3D games are more "to scale" then 2d games (where link and a small tree take up the same amount of space) the sword has to be smaller. this plus a 3d plane then causes issues with actually hitting opponents, especially when considering ranged weapons. Then since the n64 controller does not have two joysticks you can't use a first person mode to aim and move at the same time. So they thought up the lock-on thing, and made enemies avoid fire by moving fast and having shields of some sort. With the Wii remote (or the gamecube controller really) they could have removed the lock on thing and gone with first person shooting (point/use c stick to aim, control stick to move) but since the lock on mechanic works theres no reason to do that. Also it solves camera problems by allowing you to always face a particular enemy. in a 2d top-down game all these issues are irrelevant because all enemies are on a single plane and there are no scale issues so an arrow hitbox can be as big as a tree hitbox. I hope you enjoyed all these confusing words that could have been explained better by someone who isn't me

01-28-2010, 09:33 AM	#19
Glux Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Home Gender: Posts: 7,122 Thanks: 647 Thanked 360 Times in 236 Posts Blog Entries: 3	Just realized the shield in Phantom hourglass is automatic also. I like the auto-shield.

01-30-2010, 10:10 AM	#20
*Cosmonautical* Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: I rub my tilde all over your asterisk Gender: Posts: 28,102 Thanks: 2,157 Thanked 5,338 Times in 2,433 Posts	Yeah, it wasn't that bad in PH, but it felt kind of forced in the few areas that it applied. I really think they need to reconsider making the items have multiple or constant applications. There are games during the course of which you get powerups, those are usually easy to lose but tend to give you a few precious moments of godlike power. There are games like the older Zeldas where you get items that are absolutely necessary to progress, but in the meantime give you extra abilities that fill a good niche where you were lacking in defense or offense. The recent Zeldas, though, have a tendency of feeling a bit forced - the obstacles you use them to overcome tend to be forcibly contrived by being single-context items. The boomerang in Spirit Tracks? Seriously awesome. The grappling hook? Apparently you can use it to swing from identical pegs everywhere you go. But once you've got it, it's not a privilege to have to use it. You simply now have to arbitrarily swing from pegs a lot. See what I'm getting at, here? The whole game could've pretty much been made without it, with some minor story-constrained obstacles in the way of progress, and it would've been better off for it for simply not having to pretend to make extended use of an otherwise once-off item concept. Well, then there are the games like Super Metroid that kind of do powerups and item-upgrades all at once, and it really sticks out in my memory for it.