OMG

[CuccoLady]

Originally Posted by AI

For that matter, Link wasn't a hapless child summoned by a faerie to tree in TP, he was an adult shepherd who took up a quest to rescue his village's children. He ultimately still serves a near-identical purpose and place in a transparent plot.

That's the point. The two serve the same purpose for the game [for one, a protagonist off to save whatever it is he's supposed to save, for the other, a source of final bossness]. Their purpose is the same, but they are different.

Yes, the Triforce and Majora's Mask both provide their host, if you will, with power necessary to wreak havoc.

The Triforce had the effect it did on Ganon because he was a greedy man, and being supplied with the power he desired so much, he used this power and became greedier and greedier and eviler. All it did was supply him power.

Majora's Mask found itself in the hands of an unstable boy, who was lonely and confused. Tatl even said that since he was in such an unstable state, he was unable to control the mask's power and it enveloped and controlled him, bringing out the evils from within him and causing him to wreak havoc. However, near the game's end, when you summon the friends that Skull Kid thought had abandoned him, the Mask finds it can no longer use him because his feelings of loneliness are overcome by his love of his friends.

Also, one final tidbit-- the Mask loses its power over him once he loses the negative feelings inside him. If he had the Triforce of Power he would still be able to use it because it is not in itself an entity. All it does is give its wearer power. The Mask can only do ANYTHING to affect a person if that person has negative feelings. The Triforce supplies its user with power to do what he/she will with.... the Mask supplies its user with negativity and doubt and power. However, once its wearer loses these negative feelings, it becomes useless.

Also, the Mask manipulates and uses its wearer, feeding off of his or her darkness in order to gain power so that in the end, it is strong enough to destroy on its own, without the host. The Triforce is not an entity; it won't manipulate or control its owner [the owner's greed would do this, not the Triforce itself] and it can't eventually break off and do things on its own. It just supplies its wearer with power. The Mask, however, manipulates the dark emotions of its wearer to bring about its ill will, then feeds off of this so that in the end it can bring about desolation on its own.

They serve the same purpose for plot-- providing a source of power to the evildoer. However, one manipulates the feelings of its wearer to cause hatred and forget guilt, eventually feeding off of this and becoming its own being that serves to destroy; the other supplies its wearer with power, and it is the person's evil and greed, not the triforce itself, that leads to the evil actions of its wearer.

[Cosmonautical]

I just don't have the patience for this anymore, maybe another time. Although I do have one question: how does Tatl even "know" that?

[PK FIRE!]

The plot demands it?

- You stupid dog.

[CuccoLady]

^^ That's cool because as far as I can tell we are operating on completely opposite wavelengths.

It's possible she witnessed him kind of go nuts and get taken over by the mask, ooooor it could just be a cheap way of storytelling. Either or. ;{)

[Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds]

Since all you had to say was several iterations of the very same thing you've already said a few times before, with a possible suggestion that we somehow don't understand that the Mask is supposedly a conscious evil entity, though how you can imagine we haven't perceived that already is beyond me, I think it's perfectly valid for me to reply thusly:

Originally Posted by Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds

So, an Artifact of Power is obtained by a Person of Questionable Integrity, and henceforth used to craft a Land of Suffering to reflect what is In Their Heart. Whether or not the Artifact of Power was a Relic of the Gods of Creation, left as an embodiment of their power for the people they had brought into being, or was an item of Malevolent Intent is irrelevant. The outcome is the same. The path to the outcome is, for all intents and purposes, the same as well. Both Persons of Questionable Integrity suffered impure feelings. The newfound magical strength they obtained through the Artifact of Power served to enhance the impurities In Their Heart.

You've run out of any definition you might've had for whatever you're trying to argue. We know all about what you're saying. It is obvious. You don't need to try and tell us again, in some different light. It is also irrelevant, a minor deviation from the same story. One is conscious evil, one is conscious neutral with the occasional leaning towards good. You made a thread to state your assumption/revelation that the heart-like appearance is symbolic to you, and while that maintains no bearing on the game itself, I don't see what you're trying to argue. The plot was contrived and unoriginal, AI replied to your query ("Thoughts?") saying as much. His thoughts on your assumption are that, if that's what the developers were going for, it's just a greater rehash of the Triforce of Power. You haven't even particularly disagreed that it is contrived and unoriginal, but you seem very distressed that we could use that as another reason why the game isn't enjoyable to people like us. It's just looking like, by this point, you really don't want the Triforce of Power to be that similar to Majora. One "significant" difference a new story does not make.

[CuccoLady]

That's why this argument isn't going anywhere. I understand that the effect is the same for the game and it plays the same role, but you also understand that the two are different [one possesses consciously, one corrupts by supplying power to a greedy man]. The argument is going nowhere because I know that they play the same role in the games, but I think they're different enough for the Mask to be original because of what we've been over; you disagree. We're basically arguing about two viewpoints of the exact same thing.

I know what you're trying to say and I think you know what I'm trying to say so further argument probably won't really get us anywhere.

And I'm not "distressed" by AI's view on the situation. I simply disagree and I was arguing MY different viewpoint on the situation. I asked for thoughts, and I got thoughts, and then I stated why I disagreed and it ended up like this.

I still think that although the plot device is the same, the two are different, and I know you don't think this, and that's why there was argument in the first place. Woot and stuff.

Also the main difference in the game came from the masks and the moon and the three-day timespan and all of the differences in the game itself. The purpose of the object that supplies power to the baddie may not have been different, but the game was. Just because the sources of power are comparable doesn't mean the game was identical to all of the other Zelda games. The experience of playing Majora's Mask was different from that of other Zelda games.

[Cosmonautical]

Anyway, if we ever get to hang out you're gonna have to show me some of what you like about the game, since I get so irked playing it myself.

If someone could hack the damn thing so you don't lose your progress or items after the 3 days, I'd probably be more willing to give it another chance.

[Marilink]

I don't see the problem with the 3-day cycle. Put your rupees in the bank before you reset time. Next to every owl statue (which you can warp to early in the game) there's magic, arrows, bombs, and a fairy. Aside from losing items, I thought the time reset was a cool part of the story. In fact, one of my favorite things to do in MM is to make the final 3 days the most perfect they can possibly be.

[CuccoLady]

^^ I actually think that would be fun. It wouldn't change anything for either of us but still x{D

LETSDOIT

^ Me too! I always do the Anju/Kafei thing and save the Postman through it, I save the ranch, and I make the cucco chicks grow up and other stuff. I also usually try to fit a few bossfights in there if possible, though that rarely actually happens.

[Cosmonautical]

Originally Posted by Glückspilz

I don't see the problem with the 3-day cycle. Put your rupees in the bank before you reset time. Next to every owl statue (which you can warp to early in the game) there's magic, arrows, bombs, and a fairy. Aside from losing items, I thought the time reset was a cool part of the story. In fact, one of my favorite things to do in MM is to make the final 3 days the most perfect they can possibly be.

Nix, I should be able to do temples whenever I want and take however long I want to do it.

[Deku Trii]

I like the 3 day cycle. It makes the world nice and dynamic.

[CuccoLady]

My primary defense of the 3-day cycle is that the only reason Clock Town and its inhabitants are so realistic and dynamic is because of it.

There are at least 5 [probably more] small scenes or occurrences within the city that occur at very random times and are hard to catch, but if you do, they add immense depth to the characters they involve. It's only because of the 3-day cycle that the characters can have such in-depth schedules, and that in turn allows for deeper characters.

Also, the cycle allowed for many of the things that you do to get masks [saving/helping people, etc] that wouldn't have worked as well without the time limit.

And one final thing... for me at least, it supplied a feeling of earnestness. Rather than just moseying about and saving the world when I felt best, seeing the moon grow, feeling the earthquakes, and watching the clock made me feel that the doom was imminent and I had to work hard to save the world.

For me at least, the 3-day cycle was what made the game more in-depth.

[Cosmonautical]

^ I don't mind the time cycle as a concept, but it gets in the way of dungeon crawling like nothing else can. It already doesn't make sense that the bank transcends time, so why not make the stretch to actually make it convenient-ish for the player, and let you continue adventuring? And don't you restart in Clock Town every time you reboot the cycle? They should've nixed that, and given you an option to stay in place or reboot at CT.

I know it would take a huge stretch of ingenuity, but it would've been especially cool if the game actually remembered your actions and acted them out, where you exist in several instances through this time period. I'd really dig that, although it would just be insane complication in itself. The time-travel seems really particular in this game. I mean, they could've made it an insane tactical game, even, with a fricking army of Link recycling over the same 3 day time period until they numbered in the hundreds.

[LASER BEAR ASSAULT UNIT]

Oh god why did I decide to read this first thing in the morning.

The 3 day concept is good and all, and I do feel MM is a good game (best zelda game ever is links awakening, fyi ). But how the concept was exicuted was a tad flawed, since the game is effectively on an item timer, and once you go back in time, you have to use a bit of that time rupeeing, iteming, etc etc etc. And it CAN get troublesome.

Storywise, reguarding the triforce of power... I do believe the Triforce of Power corrupts due to it's amplification of Power. The creation of the Triforce of Power doesn't make a goddess inherently evil, power is something a god can control, humans however, will always be human, and giving a mortal man a massive amplification of power DOES corrupt (See: The One Ring in Lord of the Rings, even Samwise, who only had the ring for less than a day was stated to be mildly reluctant to give it over to Frodo, and we've all seen its effects on Gollum and Frodo.) the goddess likely was naive to the ways of humans at the point of its creation.

Also thats a pretty intresting theory CL, make you wonder what'd happen if Ganon got ahold of it, if it'd even affect him?


though, it does make MM seem like the Dimentors of the Zelda Universe.

[Cosmonautical]

Originally Posted by Master of the Obvious

though, it does make MM seem like the Dimentors of the Zelda Universe.

Yeah, you've struck it right there. OoT was basically just a retread of the structure of LttP, in 3D, but still with a much more limited world.

It's not suprising, then, that MM is similar in concept to Link's Awakening - essentially, LA was made in a way that references Zelda. The makers themselves described its beginnings as almost like a Zelda parody, so they ended up making kind of bizarro-world versions of Zelda NPCs and concepts. MM, to me, is kind of like if LA picked up that torch and ran in the wrong direction.

[CuccoLady]

I don't mind the time cycle as a concept, but it gets in the way of dungeon crawling like nothing else can. It already doesn't make sense that the bank transcends time, so why not make the stretch to actually make it convenient-ish for the player, and let you continue adventuring? And don't you restart in Clock Town every time you reboot the cycle? They should've nixed that, and given you an option to stay in place or reboot at CT.

Well the reason for that is they reboot you to the beginning of the cycle, and when you first enter Clock Town at the beginning of the first day you are at the entrance of the Clock Tower. When you go back in time, you literally rewind time, going back to where you started.

Which is why the owl statues are very very nice. They have one right smack at the entrance to each dungeon so you don't have to climb up Stone Tower or travel through Woodfall multiple times.

As for the bank, it really doesn't make any sense, but it does come in handy when it comes to buying that friggen' All-Night Mask and various other overpriced things. I dunno, I don't think that just because one aspect of it makes no sense, they should've made the rest of it make no sense either.

However, it is possible to do just enough of the temple to get a major item [like fire arrows or something] and then re-start time before doing the rest. This item usually allows you to just skip right through the first half of the temple when you revisit it.

And the only dungeon I ever had a problem feeling rushed in was my first playthrough of Stone Tower. Aside from that I felt I had plenty of time.

I know it would take a huge stretch of ingenuity, but it would've been especially cool if the game actually remembered your actions and acted them out, where you exist in several instances through this time period. I'd really dig that, although it would just be insane complication in itself. The time-travel seems really particular in this game. I mean, they could've made it an insane tactical game, even, with a fricking army of Link recycling over the same 3 day time period until they numbered in the hundreds.

OK that would be cool. x{D

I don't know how well that could actually be executed but still, army of links rampaging the town and the dungeons would be pretty kickass.

Like, every time you go back in time, a ghost link goes and does the stuff you did in the previous cycle as you do your own stuff, and they just add a ghost link for every time you play the cycle. It could get hectic and crazy and probably impossible to pull off but it would still kind of rock. A lot.

---

@Masa: the game WAS based on the timer but that was what made the game what it was. Whether you took that as an opportunity to make the town seem more alive and deep and to feel the doom about to occur, or you took it as a nuisance, that's up to the player. I still felt that there was plenty of time to get done what needed to be done and the three days in the game were very fleshed out.

[Cosmonautical]

But it already doesn't make any sense when a little bit of it doesn't make sense. I care less if it makes slightly more sense than if it's not a bitch to backtrack because the day cycle ended. Besides, if it actually turned time backwards, why do the items transcend time? That's not accurate, it's just BS.

And yeah, the game is cramped. There could've been a lot more exploring to do in general with a lot more traveling possible, but the time constraint was in part a lame excuse to cut down the dev time, since Nintendo wanted them to finish it in a year, start-to-finish. So, of course you're not feeling the time constraints once you know where you're going, it's made so it's possible to play blocks in a ridiculously short time period, and they're counting on someone like you not getting that it's a cop-out.

[CaptHayfever]

Okay, so there's a temporally-immune bank for your rupees; does it also take deposits of arrows, potions, etc.? 'Cause that was the deal-breaker for me, constantly restocking supplies while under a time limit. I didn't mind the starting in Clock Town each cycle, though.

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

[X-3]

The bank keeps rupee count because the person at the desk puts a stamp on Link with each deposit or withdrawal. Yeah, it's kind of a completely lame and probably impossible reason.

I usually just went outside of town and beat on shrubs to restock. Or, just continued with the plot and gradually built stuff up again.

[CuccoLady]

I just have one question for you, AI-- did you ever spend time just wandering around clock town? That's where the 3-day cycle really comes into play. I mentioned it in one of my earlier posts. It is only because of the 3-day cycle that the town is so awesomely lively and in-depth.