Goku Is Not A Good Father (aka The Official DBS Liveblogging Thread)

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#21

Post by Validecember » Wed Mar 16, 2016 7:16 pm

You know who doesn't enjoy the Cell saga?

Gohan.

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#22

Post by Apollo the Just » Wed Mar 16, 2016 7:49 pm

yesss. yessssssss. EXCELLENT.
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#23

Post by I REALLY HATE PRESENTS! » Wed Mar 16, 2016 8:34 pm

I think the Android Saga, the bit right after Frieza and just up until Cell takes center stage completely, is the best, most interesting section of DBZ. Lots of stuff going on there at once. Cell Games is where is slows down.

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#24

Post by New! Tazy Ten » Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:21 pm

Some people combine the Android and Cell Sagas together because one leads immediately into the other.

But the Android part of DBZ is why I like that part better than the Namek Saga. Because they managed to had an end to everyone's character arcs and expand them so that we still care. Then there's villains that you love to hate, and moments that are really well done, episodes spent charging up power aside.

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#25

Post by Apollo the Just » Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:55 am

Yo what the butts you guys

Piccolo was fighting Cell and trying to protect the androids from being absorbed, and first Gohan was asking Goku like "do you think he can win??" and Goku just responds "no, but if he holds out, he might... live" and I was like WOW way to have literally ZERO faith in your comrade/son's really close important mentor, but okay. Then when Piccolo got mortally wounded, Gohan was DEVASTATED and he was like "YOU CAN SIT HERE AND DO NOTHING BUT I'M GOING TO HELP HIM! PICCOLO NEEDS ME!!!" and goes to help him and GOKU PUNCHES HIM TO THE GROUND!!! AND YELLS AT HIM!!!!! Goku's like "YOU WOULD HAVE DIED" and Gohan responds "THAT'S BETTER THAN DOING NOTHING!! PICCOLO WOULDN'T ABANDON YOU LIKE THIS!!!!" and then Goku doesn't apologize for P U N C H I N G his son until his son apologizes first for his words!!! THIS ALWAYS HAPPENS GOHAN IS ALWAYS MADE TO FEEL THAT HE IS IN THE WRONG WHEN HE DISAGREES WITH HIS FATHER UUGGGHHHHH

AND THEN when Tien sacrifices himself, THEN Goku decides to intervene and save him. He only saves Piccolo because he's still alive at that point. Apparently Piccolo dying wasn't a good enough reason for Gohan to want to intervene, but Tien dying is a good enough reason for Goku to! Like I know everything worked out in the end but Jesus Goku your complete and utter lack of empathy for your son is showing and it's embarrassing!!!!!!!!!
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#26

Post by Validecember » Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:01 am

It gets worse. Ohh, it gets so much worse.

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#27

Post by Apollo the Just » Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:14 am

D:
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#28

Post by I REALLY HATE PRESENTS! » Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:13 am

Goku was just being honest when he said Piccolo can't win, and punching Gohan down...well, a slap would have sufficed, haha. As for why he went to help Tien and not Piccolo, not only did he already think that Piccolo was dead, but by the time Tien had lost to Cell the Androids already escaped, so going in to whisk Tien away made sense at that point.

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#29

Post by X-3 » Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:36 am

Oh, so she's getting to that part.

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#30

Post by Apollo the Just » Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:11 am

^^ okay, like on one hand I respect that Goku was being honest with his son about the very real dangers facing Piccolo and preparing him for a harsh truth, but on the other he doesn't even convey the faintest glimmer of hope or trust that Piccolo can survive, which is really damaging to Gohan who loves and admires him so much....

Like there's a world of difference between "he can't win, there's a slim chance he might live" which is what Goku said and "Piccolo is strong, he may not be strong enough to defeat them but he can hold out until we finish our training" which at the very least gives his kid an idea of the severity and truth of the situation, which I respect, but also some hope, which he totally failed to do. Also piccolo survived ANYWAY so some hope would have been accurate b t w

I know Goku is bad with words but maybe then he shouldn't have been a dad if he's not prepared to be mindful of the impact of his words on a child he is responsible for raising....

Also I don't think Goku knew the androids had left. They can't sense their power levels. So obviously as a narrative everything worked out for the best that Goku went when he did, but from the POV of the characters Goku intervened for Tien but not Piccolo and used harmful physical force against his son for wanting to.

:/
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#31

Post by Apollo the Just » Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:57 am

I do want to clarify though -- I know that Goku's actions so far do not come from a malicious place, and that he always acts wanting to protect Gohan. Also, if it weren't for the fact that Goku has already displayed tendencies of bad fatherhood, I probably wouldn't think twice about the way he talks to Gohan about Piccolo ((I would most certainly still think very twice about him PUNCHING HIS CHILD. WHAT THE HELL GOKU)). And it's not like Piccolo has never unintentionally hurt Gohan either, but he is supportive and empathetic the VAST majority of the time ((yo remember that time after they beat Garlic Jr before the Android saga and Piccolo was like "sleep well Gohan, I'm proud of you" WHAT A NICE SWEET FATHERLY THING TO SAY **SIDE EYES GOKU**)) whereas Goku is curt the vast majority of the time.

Goku protects Gohan, that much is true. And I know he was also emotionally drained when he lashed out at Gohan, but that DOESN'T MAKE IT OKAYYYY

...okay also someone brought up Chi Chi a while back and can I just say, when she hired that freakin tutor for Gohan who gave him crap about having sad feelings about his missing dad,, that was EFFED UP MAN
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#32

Post by I REALLY HATE PRESENTS! » Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:55 pm

Androids can't be sensed but everyone else can be. Goku had an understanding of the situation, that Tien was expending all of his energy in order to restrain Cell so that the Androids could escape, not defeat him. He likely assumed that Tien had successfully accomplished his goal based on how long Cell was restricted. Well, that's what I always thought. Maybe he just likes Tien more, haha. They have known each other and been friends longer.

The worst thing about Chi Chi is she eventually becomes a hypocrite, training Goten in martial arts herself. The whole series she just freaks out about Gohan wasting his time fighting and not studying and then turns around to train Goten, I actually don't get that. Maybe she felt like Goten needed some basics at least, that's all I could come up with.

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#33

Post by X-3 » Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:15 pm

I think I read that Chi Chi felt bad post-Cell saga, so she let Goten practice martial arts like he wanted.

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#34

Post by Apollo the Just » Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:18 pm

Chi Chi has changed her viewpoints at least during the part of the Cell saga I'm currently on; she finally let Gohan and Goku go train to defeat Cell, which is the exact opposite of what she's done before. She had some cute moments with Goku when he recovered from illness too. I think she's had some development and so far seems to have a healthier relationship with her family than previously? Which is nice. Dunno moving forward as I haven't seen the rest yet lmao
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#35

Post by I REALLY HATE PRESENTS! » Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:22 pm

She finally let Gohan train? I forgot that. I guess she did lighten up as it went on, which would explain why she trained Goten a bit.

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#36

Post by Apollo the Just » Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:29 pm

I AM GOING TO MURDER GOKU I AM GOING TO INSTANT-TRANSMISSION MY SOUL INTO HIS DIMENSION AND BEAT THE EVER LOVING CRAP OUT OF HIM AND THEN TOSS HIS CARCASS INTO THE SUN AND FRANKLY HE WOULD DESERVE MUCH, MUCH WORSE

1. Goku sees Gohan's pain as a means to an end (unleashing his full potential). He is GRINNING whilst Gohan's bones are nearly crushed because he thinks it will allow Gohan to get angry and win. This exhibits a complete lack of empathy for Gohan's suffering. GOKU THINKS IT IS OKAY FOR HIS SON TO SUFFER AND ALMOST DIE AS LONG AS CELL IS DEFEATED. WHEN, FRANKLY, IF HE AND GOHAN HAD GANGED UP ON HIM TO START, THEY PROBABLY COULD HAVE WON THAT WAY. HE GIVES HIM A GODDAMN SENZU BEAN FOR CHRIST'S SAKE.

2. Gohan hates fighting and is extremely scared at the prospect of killing someone with power he can't control. Goku intended for Gohan to not only do just that, but for him to have no say in it-- he never told Gohan anything about his plan! He would have used Gohan as a tool in a way that would traumatize him!!! GOHAN WOULD LITERALLY BE SCARRED FOR LIFE IF HE KILLED SOMEONE INVOLUNTARILY BECAUSE HE HATES FIGHTING AND GOKU WOULD HAVE FORCED HIM TO DO IT, AND NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED TALKING TO HIM ABOUT IT.

3. Gohan is such a pure soul that his own pain is not enough to cause him to react with his hidden power. Which means Goku would happily have waited until he DIED, thinking his own suffering would tap into his power, when it wouldn't. GOKU WOULD HAVE WATCHED HIS SON DIE, SMILING, THINKING "HE WILL UNLEASH IT ANY TIME NOW" WHEN IN FACT ONLY THE PAIN OF OTHERS ALLOWS GOHAN TO BECOME STRONG.

4. Piccolo is the only person who recognizes all of the above and also sees Gohan for who he is: a scared, dying, eleven year old child who needs help and feels alone. PICCOLO! IS! GOHAN'S! REAL! DAD!!!! PICCOLO YELLS AT GOKU AND SAYS "DID YOU DISCUSS THIS WITH HIM?????" HE POINTS OUT THE ABOVE, HE TELLS GOKU THAT GOHAN IS SCARED AND THAT HE WOULD RATHER DIE THAN WAIT

IM CRYING I FINISHED THE EPISODE 20 MINUTES AGO AND IM STILL CRYING I HATE THIS
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#37

Post by Apollo the Just » Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:04 am

[QUOTE="Valigarmander, post: 1589781, member: 30663"]You know who doesn't enjoy the Cell saga?

Gohan.[/QUOTE]

YOU KNOW WHO DOES GET SICK ENJOYMENT FROM THE CELL SAGA? GOKU, WHILE HE GRINS AS HIS SON IS GETTING CRUSHED BY CELL BECAUSE HE THINKS IT'S OKAY SO LONG AS GOHAN UNLEASHES HIS SUPER STRONG ENERGY.
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#38

Post by I REALLY HATE PRESENTS! » Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:06 am

Well, they did need Gohan's power. Ganging up on Cell might've worked but unleashing Gohan's potential was a safer bet. It was the smart thing to do but Goku really was pretty much without empathy lol. I think part of it was that he just had so much faith in Gohan that it blinded him, which is why Piccolo, the wiser of the two, scolded him. Goku realized Piccolo might be right at that point, so credit where credit is due.

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#39

Post by Apollo the Just » Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:08 am

CREDIT IS NOT DUE I DO NOT OWE GOKU A DAMN THING HE WOULD HAVE LET GOHAN DIE ALONE, STILL THINKING HIS POWER WOULD GE UNLEASHED, IF A) PICCOLO HADN'T SCOLDED HIM AND B) GOHAN HADN'T REVEALED GOKU'S PLAN TO CELL IN HOPES OF MAKING HIM STOP
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#40

Post by I REALLY HATE PRESENTS! » Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:16 am

Haha, true. Even Android 16 is more in touch with who Gohan is and they met like once.

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