Goku Is Not A Good Father (aka The Official DBS Liveblogging Thread)

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#41

Post by Apollo the Just » Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:37 am

Also can we talk about how Goku's plan relies on an emotional reaction which Gohan CANNOT control, and therefore if it takes A LOT of suffering and death to trigger his power Gohan is going to feel responsible for not being able to do it without all of that pain. He's gonna have "if I could have only done it sooner, ____ wouldn't have had to die!!" Syndrome. Even though it's not his fault and GOKU decided all this for him without his consent!!!
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#42

Post by Valigarmander » Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:40 am

I TOLD YOU ABOUT THAT CELL SAGA

I TOLD YOU

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#43

Post by Apollo the Just » Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:41 am

U DID WARN ME

At the very very least, it highlighted the intense love and empathy that Piccolo has for Gohan.

But like, literally everything else is sufferingt

----

e: so I re watched the episode because I hate myself. And it's worse the second time because the whole time he's being attacked you know Gohan is feeling nothing but fear, hurt, and abandonment (NOT ANGER) but Goku is expecting him to be pissed off. So not only is he physically abandoned and hurt, Goku has no idea how he must be *feeling* until Piccolo screams at him about how awful he's being.
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#44

Post by CaptHayfever » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:31 am

[QUOTE="CuccoLady, post: 1591516, member: 30977"]AND THEN TOSS HIS CARCASS INTO THE SUN[/QUOTE] Come on, we all know that wouldn't work to kill Goku. ;)

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"

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#45

Post by Apollo the Just » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:32 am

yo so i have been doing lots of thinking on this because im still so upset about this scene (i also read the manga version and it made me more upset because it also seemed to imply, in addition to everything else, that even though gohan hates fighting and is scared of killing, he would be willing to gET ANGRY by himself, the way goku wants him to, if it would save everyone else from having to suffer for it..... but HE LITERALLY CANNOT)

so

im starting to understand goku's character a little more. it's not that he lacks empathy for gohan (specifically). he lacks empathy in general. he assumes that everyone has the same priorities and experiences and motivations that he does.

When Gohan is getting crushed almost to death by Cell, Goku is smirking because if he were in that situation, he would be getting riled up at the prospect of a good fight and getting pissed off (meaning he [Gohan] should unleash his power at any moment, in Goku's eyes). During the fight with Frieza, when Goku repeatedly yells at Gohan and dismisses his ability to fight despite the fact that he stOOD UP TO FINAL FORM FRIEZA LIKE A BAMF AT AGE 5, he probably doesn't even realize the impact of his words. If that had been yelled at *him* when he was younger, he would've either gotten angry/headstrong and stayed to prove them wrong, or conceded and left while vowing to get stronger and someday kick the bigger guy's butt. The expression of power wouldn't have affected his self-esteem whatsoever and he wouldn't have gotten upset and scared like Gohan did.

Goku is nowhere near as emotionally vulnerable as Gohan. He assumes that Gohan will brush off, or even get *motivated* by, antagonizing words and actions. Because it's what he would do. And Goku is surrounded by manly fighter dudebros who feel the same way, so it's probably easy for him to think Gohan would too. That's what it is -- Goku is frequently antagonizing, sometimes in a friendly way and sometimes to a more extreme degree, but it's something that he himself responds well to, so he doesn't see a problem with it.

This breeds tragedy for Gohan because a) he is constantly exposed to Goku due to their familial birth relationship, b) Gohan looks up to Goku and therefore his harmful words/actions carry more weight, and c) Gohan is one of the gentlest and most sensitive characters in this show, who is as unlike Goku as he could be - so being treated the way Goku would want to be treated is quite possibly the worst thing that he could experience. But he does. Frequently. And it's extremely damaging.

TL;DR GOKU THINKS EVERYONE IS GOKU, AND WHEN PEOPLE ARE IN FACT SMOL CHILDREN WITH VULNERABLE FEELINGS, RESULTS ARE DISASTROUS

WHICH MEANS::: *ahem*

HE RLY SHOULD NOT BE A DAD HOLY CRAP
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#46

Post by LOOT » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:16 am

Goku is the Dark Souls of parenting

I just said that and I'm not sure if that was ironic or not

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#47

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:25 am

^^ Yeah, that actually is a good understanding of Goku's character, in a sense. Dunno if you watched Dragon Ball prior to DBZ, but in it he is established as an almost completely innocent person. Anything mean he does or says is meant to be fun (mischievously) helpful (see: Uub), or just direct and honest and that isn't always appropriate but he literally doesn't know any better. He is kind of, in the literal sense, borderline retarded

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#48

Post by spooky scary bearatons » Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:57 am

[QUOTE="CaptHayfever, post: 1591543, member: 25169"]Come on, we all know that wouldn't work to kill Goku. :wink:

And remember, "I'm-a Luigi, number one!"[/QUOTE]

dank meme bro
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#49

Post by LOOT » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:36 pm

so how was DBZ last night, CL? please, do inform the class -sitting with leg crossed, tapping fingers-

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#50

Post by Valigarmander » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:56 pm

You can check her Facebook page for by-the-minute analysis.

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#51

Post by Marilink » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:28 pm

my news feed was pretty glorious this morning
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#52

Post by New! Tazy Ten » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Gotta admit.

I did not think of this "Goku is a bad father" thing at all. I mean, yeah he is, but I thought it was just played for laughs against Chi-Chi wanting Gohan to be a smart boy. It's not that I ignored it since all the signs are there but I kind of let the idea pass me by as the years went on.

I'm glad CL is enjoying it because the best part in the whole series is coming up.

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#53

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:28 pm

Yeah, pretty much. DBZ has a few good speeches but my favorite one is right around the corner.

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#54

Post by Apollo the Just » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:00 am

[QUOTE="LOOT, post: 1591812, member: 21459"]so how was DBZ last night, CL? please, do inform the class -sitting with leg crossed, tapping fingers-[/QUOTE]

SHSJDJHFFJDJEJHDKSKDNDJDKDKDNDKSKDJBDKSEIFBDKDKJDJSJENWKSKSNDJDKSLSLSJDJSOEOWNEIEJDJDJDJSKSKSKSLWPWKSNDJKDODKSLALSNDKWKSJDHDJSKDUDJDJDJJSJSKSKSKSKSKSKSJJSJDJSJSJDHDJDKDJDJDJDJSJSJDJDNSKSLSKDNSLALSSJJDHDKAKSKDKSKSKSLDPLSLALALSSJDJJDJDJDJNDDJJDJEJWOSKXJSKSJGDLSJENDJSJFHAKDJ

*HUGE INHALE OF BREATH*

AAAAAAAAAAAaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA,,,,,,,,,..,......

1. SSJ2 GOHAN IS SO TRAGIC. He is reluctant to unleash his power because he's afraid of losing control but he's also desperate to do so because he wants to save everyone but he can't control his emotional reactions and his instinct is to feel scared and sad and empathetic before feeling angry and it is SO HARD for him to accept that it's OKAY to be angry and to hurt someone if it's to protect...... because it goes against everything he stands for........... but he is pushed to the **** brink and finally enough is enough and he suffers enough that he's pushed over the edge to ssj2 aND GOKU REACTS WITH PRIDE BUT PICCOLO WITH CONCERN #JustSaiyan

2. Literally all piccolo has said for the past like 6 episodes is "Gohan...!" #DadOfTheYear

3. VEGETA ADDRESSES GOHAN AND TRUNKS BY NAME FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GGHHHHHHGGGHHGHHG

4. Okay can we talk about how **** Trunks dies but Yamcha doesn't. Like

5. GOHAN BECOMES TWISTED WITH POWER AND ANGER AND HURT AND WANTS TO PROLONG CELL'S SUFFERING....... AND GOKU PLEADS WITH HIM TO END IT BUT!! First of all Goku, you said you wanted Cell to taste true fear at the hands of Gohan, so this is EXACTLY WHAT YOU INTENDED. Second of all, you think this is who GOHAN really is??!?? He's so twisted by these traumatic events that his gentle nature has become outright nasty. This is because YOU WERE USING HIS EMOTIONS AS A TOOL RATHER THAN TREATING GOHAN AS A FIGHTING COMRADE. You messed with his emotions and when he got messed up from it you're unhappy with the results. Way to GO

6. GOKU SACRIFICING HIMSELF WAS TBH THE BEST THING HE COULD DO LIKE FINALLY GOHAN WONT HAVE A TOXIC FATHER IN HIS LIFE, NOT TO MENTION THE ONLY REASON U HAD TO DO THAT WAS BECAUSE IT'S *YOUR* FAULT YOU ORCHESTRATED A SITUATION THAT MESSED UP GOHAN'S MENTAL STATE SO BAD HE WANTED TO DRAG OUT THE FIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE. The saddest thing is how Gohan COMPLETELY BLAMES HIMSELF,, like, you are a vicTIM OF TRAUMA AND THIS IS NOT YOUR FAULT DO NOT BLAME YOURSELF,, YOU WERE NOT REALLY YOU AND YOU HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO BECOME THAT TWISTED PERSON. You were SCARED to become that person but GOKU decided FOR YOU that this was how it would be and IT TURNED OT POORLY BECAUSE YOU WERE TRAUMATIZED ugh

7. GOHAN'S!!!!!!!! ONE ARMED!!!!!!!!!!!! KAMEHAMEHA!!!!!!!!!!!!! IS THE BEST PART OF THIS ENTIRE SERIES IDGAF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

8. PICCOLO SAYS "I WONT LET HIM DIE ALONE HE WAS THE FIRST PERSON WHO TAUGHT ME WHAT IT FELT LIKE TO HAVE A FRIEND" JUSTTTTT END MEEEE

9. GOHAN HAS SO MANY DADS WHO ALL LOVE AND SUPPORT HIM !!!!!!!!!!!!

10. EVEN IN HIS COMPLETELY EFFED UP EMOTIONAL STATE GOHAN HAS ENOUGH EMPATHY TO HOLD BACK OUT OF CONCERN FOR HIS SURROUNDINGS BLESS THIS CHILD UGH HE FINDS IT SO HARD TO LET GO BECAUSE HE SPENDS HIS WHOLE LIFE INTERNALIZING ****

11. GOKU U REGAINED SOME DAD POINTS DURING UR SPEECH TO GOHAN AFTER U DIED THAT WAS REALLY SWEET AND EXACTLY WHAT GOHAN NEEDED TO HEAR

..........I just. I need to know what the aftermath is. Does Gohan consider Goku more complexly after witnessing how he valued a manly fight more than Gohan's life? Does he realize that his experiences are legitimately traumatizing? Is this treated as a wound that must heal or does he internalize this and continue blaming himself? Is GOHAN GOING TO BE OKAY[DOUBLEPOST=1460005234,1460005178][/DOUBLEPOST]THE MOST IMPORTANT TAKEAWAY IS THAT I AM SO SO SO SO SO PROUD OF MY ACTUAL LITERAL SON GOHAN. HE DEFEATED CELL. AT THE COST OF HIS OWN EMOTIONAL WELL BEING, HE DID IT FOR THE EARTH. THANK YOU GOHAN
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#55

Post by LOOT » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:18 am

I for one liked Vegeta's final act because for a guy that was so full of pride, especially the moment where it actually made sense after Trunks bites it, he tries to finish Cell but screws that up SO bad, and right when things were looking like the end, he finally swallowed his pride and attacked Cell... not to kill, but to assist Gohan

also my favorite part of last night was even though people were really confused this morning about how much you filled Facebook, I eagerly awaited your reaction after Goku's teleport-sacrifice AND I SAID FIVE MINUTES AND WAS ONLY OFF BY TWO

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#56

Post by Apollo the Just » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:31 am

VEGETA WAS SO GOOD IN THIS FIGHT HE WAS FULL ON PART OF THE DAD SQUAD NOT JUST FOR TRUNKS BUT ALSO FOR GOHAN
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#57

Post by New! Tazy Ten » Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:12 am

7. GOHAN'S!!!!!!!! ONE ARMED!!!!!!!!!!!! KAMEHAMEHA!!!!!!!!!!!!! IS THE BEST PART OF THIS ENTIRE SERIES IDGAF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm glad you liked that part. ;)

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#58

Post by Apollo the Just » Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:16 am

[QUOTE="Valigarmander, post: 1591840, member: 30663"]You can check her Facebook page for by-the-minute analysis.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE="Marilink, post: 1591857, member: 23215"]my news feed was pretty glorious this morning[/QUOTE]

Y'all are **** welcome
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#59

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:06 pm

I think you'll be one of the people who like Gohan in the Buu saga. Are you starting that yet?

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#60

Post by е и ժ е я » Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:40 am

Gohan wrecking Cell was the best part of the series. It is definitely the peak for me. I liked some of the stuff that follows quite a bit but that and Piccolo turning into The Namek were the best moments.
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