Tomboys and transgenderism

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Tomboys and transgenderism

#1

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:53 pm

I was reading comments on sites like YouTube recently, and some comments here and other places. Then I looked at a few articles, and was just thinking about the way the world used to be. This is just a topic made to discuss things, not necessarily a point to be argued.

I knew several tomboys from school and nobody ever batted an eye or tried to lead them toward regendering. They'd play sports with us, chase and wrestle just like boys, enjoyed boyish activities in general. I never stayed in contact with any of them but I did meet them later in adulthood, and they were just seemingly normal women. No need to cry anecdote btw, remember it's just discussion.

So some of the comments I've been reading around the Internet are about things I never really considered, leading me to wonder if tomboys actually are being erased. They think the LGBT movement is at fault. It seems there's at least some desire to do so. Considering what are essentially babies, just 2 years old in some cases, to be transgender, and condoning or encouraging transgenderism in them certainly isn't leaving much room to see how they naturally develop.

Something interesting is this article. It's written by a mother who praises the LGBT movement, supports feminist ideals, and is disturbingly gung-ho to transition her kid at the drop of a hat. At the same time, she unwittingly points out things that could be part of the erasure of tomboys. The teacher practically begging to refer to the kid as trans, doctors asking her if she feels like the opposite gender, and she says her gender is continually questioned.

That didn't really happen before. I don't think it should happen now, even though the mother says she thinks it's wonderful if the subject is not pressed. I think it can lead to confusion in impressionable young children, especially combined with how positive LGBT is portrayed now, maybe they'll want to be part of it. Maybe they will think you can just swap gender like an article of clothing and treat it with a similar flippancy.

Maybe this is related to the rise in minors identifying differently than they are. I've heard it argued that it's just a more "tolerant" time but I don't think so. Maybe there's tomboys identifying as transgender. I heard that gay males sometimes do that and eventually just identify as gay men.

It's a subject worthy of discussion. I'm curious what others have to say. Remember it's not a debate, I'm not backing the notion, just considering it.

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Re: Tomboys and transgenderism

#2

Post by RinkuTheFirst » Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:47 pm

So, my first reaction here upon seeing you use the word "transgenderism" is that you are not coming to this subject in good faith. From GLAAD:
"transgenderism"

This is not a term commonly used by transgender people. This is a term used by anti-transgender activists to dehumanize transgender people and reduce who they are to "a condition."
https://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender

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Re: Tomboys and transgenderism

#3

Post by Apollo the Just » Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:58 pm

not really interested in discussing this in depth atm but all im gonna say is i was effeminate when I ID'd as a girl even if I made friends with a lot of guys, and i am a trans dude now. gender representation and identity are not 1:1 and the world would be better if people accepted however folks choose to present and respected how they choose to identify.

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Re: Tomboys and transgenderism

#4

Post by DarkZero » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:45 pm

Sonic 5 wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:47 pm
So, my first reaction here upon seeing you use the word "transgenderism" is that you are not coming to this subject in good faith. From GLAAD:
"transgenderism"

This is not a term commonly used by transgender people. This is a term used by anti-transgender activists to dehumanize transgender people and reduce who they are to "a condition."
https://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender
how quickly we forget the true trans ally

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Re: Tomboys and transgenderism

#5

Post by I am nobody » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:56 pm

There is some evidence that a reasonable portion of minors who identify as transgender no longer do as adults. I don't have time to find the study(s) again right now, but it was a large enough group that medical professionals who work with trans people had a dilemma about when to allow irreversible procedures: performing one would cause significant harm to someone who later identifies as the birth sex, but delaying causes needless harm to the (larger? I don't remember) group that does not. The study did anecdotally mention a woman who had a large number of trans friends in high school and only identified as trans for a year or two, but I go the impression the concern was more about the extent to which young children's identities were consistent rather than anyone being pressured to be trans. This was over a year ago, so I don't know if any of that has changed.

That said, the idea that a fairly large group of people is being "erased" by one that makes up less than 1% of the population is kind of silly, particularly when that 1% is among the most vulnerable.

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Re: Tomboys and transgenderism

#6

Post by RinkuTheFirst » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:11 pm

DarkZero wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:45 pm
Sonic 5 wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:47 pm
So, my first reaction here upon seeing you use the word "transgenderism" is that you are not coming to this subject in good faith. From GLAAD:
"transgenderism"

This is not a term commonly used by transgender people. This is a term used by anti-transgender activists to dehumanize transgender people and reduce who they are to "a condition."
https://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender
how quickly we forget the true trans ally

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Re: Tomboys and transgenderism

#7

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:20 am

Sonic 5 wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:47 pm
So, my first reaction here upon seeing you use the word "transgenderism" is that you are not coming to this subject in good faith. From GLAAD:
"transgenderism"

This is not a term commonly used by transgender people. This is a term used by anti-transgender activists to dehumanize transgender people and reduce who they are to "a condition."
https://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender
Well, that's an interesting reaction. Out of curiosity, what word do you propose to replace it, then?
I am nobody wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:56 pm
There is some evidence that a reasonable portion of minors who identify as transgender no longer do as adults. I don't have time to find the study(s) again right now, but it was a large enough group that medical professionals who work with trans people had a dilemma about when to allow irreversible procedures: performing one would cause significant harm to someone who later identifies as the birth sex, but delaying causes needless harm to the (larger? I don't remember) group that does not. The study did anecdotally mention a woman who had a large number of trans friends in high school and only identified as trans for a year or two, but I go the impression the concern was more about the extent to which young children's identities were consistent rather than anyone being pressured to be trans. This was over a year ago, so I don't know if any of that has changed.

That said, the idea that a fairly large group of people is being "erased" by one that makes up less than 1% of the population is kind of silly, particularly when that 1% is among the most vulnerable.
I didn't think anyone would suggest that transgender people themselves are erasing groups of people. What it seems to be is that people think tomboys are sort of being "absorbed" into the LGBT fold, I suppose?

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Re: Tomboys and transgenderism

#8

Post by Deepfake » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:42 am

^ To answer the first question, we don't really need a word to replace it. There are people who are trans, it's not an organisation or a practice and that sort of wording implies an action or practice which in itself suggests it is performative.

Adults suggesting things to kids is an issue. The concept of the 'tomboy' was already the result of othering people who do not fit unrealistic expectations of how girls and women are meant to behave, and is in itself the result of enforced gender roles. Most honest trans folk have no interest in enforcing a gender binary, the idea that a person has to be one or the other is not an idea put forth by trans people at large. Of the many trans people I know, literally none of them have any interest in referring to anyone by anything other than their chosen identity.

People being asked to consider what they prefer as their identity is not an issue. People suggesting to others that they should be one over the other is the same challenge that trans folk face and is an issue with sexism.
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Re: Tomboys and transgenderism

#9

Post by steeze » Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:04 pm

I'm certainly not an expert on this topic but I will say this.

If you wanna be a girl be a girl if you wanna be a boy be a boy.

Who are we to judge.

Don't push sexuality / gender on kids who have no idea what sex even is. They'll figure it out on their own as well as what they want to identify as.

Simple

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Re: Tomboys and transgenderism

#10

Post by United Nations » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:34 pm

Gender expression is different than gender identity and sexual orientation. K byeeeee.

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Re: Tomboys and transgenderism

#11

Post by smol Kat » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:07 pm

United Nations wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:34 pm
Gender expression is different than gender identity and sexual orientation. K byeeeee.
this is important af
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Re: Tomboys and transgenderism

#12

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:15 am

Deepfake wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:42 am
^ To answer the first question, we don't really need a word to replace it. There are people who are trans, it's not an organisation or a practice and that sort of wording implies an action or practice which in itself suggests it is performative.
It seems to be the same type of word as "heterosexuality" or "homosexuality," at least that's how I intended to use it, and how I've seen it used. There does need to be a word for that if transgenderism isn't accurate.
Deepfake wrote:Adults suggesting things to kids is an issue. The concept of the 'tomboy' was already the result of othering people who do not fit unrealistic expectations of how girls and women are meant to behave, and is in itself the result of enforced gender roles. Most honest trans folk have no interest in enforcing a gender binary, the idea that a person has to be one or the other is not an idea put forth by trans people at large. Of the many trans people I know, literally none of them have any interest in referring to anyone by anything other than their chosen identity.

People being asked to consider what they prefer as their identity is not an issue. People suggesting to others that they should be one over the other is the same challenge that trans folk face and is an issue with sexism.
I'm not sure the term tomboy is an instance of "othering" so much as a description, like "girly" or something. I don't see how gender roles are enforced either, they're expected and the norm but not enforced by society in general. At most they're suggested.

I do think asking children what they prefer as their identity is an issue. Adults can do as they wish, of course.
steeze wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:04 pm
I'm certainly not an expert on this topic but I will say this.

If you wanna be a girl be a girl if you wanna be a boy be a boy.

Who are we to judge.

Don't push sexuality / gender on kids who have no idea what sex even is. They'll figure it out on their own as well as what they want to identify as.

Simple
I don't think one needs to be an expert to make common sense statements, but I completely agree with what you said.
United Nations wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:34 pm
Gender expression is different than gender identity and sexual orientation. K byeeeee.
Not sure what you're trying to say, but it doesn't seem related to the topic to me.

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Re: Tomboys and transgenderism

#13

Post by Deepfake » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:21 am

I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:15 am
I do think asking children what they prefer as their identity is an issue. Adults can do as they wish, of course.
I don't see any harm in allowing children to express themselves in a non-destructive fashion. This is about identity of course. Insisting a person should question their own sense of self in spite of them already having confirmed their identity is damaging, though, and of course that is a thing that trans people experience constantly in our society. There is a difference between asking for information such as 'which gender do you identify as and prefer' as opposed to using leading questions to undermine a person's sense of self by repeatedly asking 'are you sure?' and it's important to see that distinction. The former is communication, the latter is expressing disrespect towards someone's sense of self.
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Re: Tomboys and transgenderism

#14

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:50 am

Deepfake wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:21 am
I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:15 am
I do think asking children what they prefer as their identity is an issue. Adults can do as they wish, of course.
I don't see any harm in allowing children to express themselves in a non-destructive fashion. This is about identity of course. Insisting a person should question their own sense of self in spite of them already having confirmed their identity is damaging, though, and of course that is a thing that trans people experience constantly in our society. There is a difference between asking for information such as 'which gender do you identify as and prefer' as opposed to using leading questions to undermine a person's sense of self by repeatedly asking 'are you sure?' and it's important to see that distinction. The former is communication, the latter is expressing disrespect towards someone's sense of self.
I understand what you're saying but first, although I disagree that there's no harm there, it isn't exactly what I said. I didn't say that it's harmful to allow children to express themselves, but that it's not good for certain notions to even be introduced to young children. Now separately, yes, I do think it is harmful not to limit how children express themselves. After all, it is a parent's job to raise a child. That's an active role, not a passive one. Though this is from the Bible, I think it's wise for all parents to take it to heart as a general statement: "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." - Proverbs 22:6.

Everything you said is fine at least in concept, again I don't have any issue with adults communicating or engaging with each other as they see fit so long as I and others are not compelled to speech with which we disagree (as is happening more and more, people are even losing their jobs and I'm sure that imprisonment will follow, and in fact already can in very specific circumstances). I think it's sort of an inevitability though, that as long as society condones it that these circumstances will occur. I mean, I saw this sort of enforcement a mile away but was hit with "muh slippery slope fallacy." Go back 20 years and it would be a SNL skit, firing or imprisoning anyone for misgenderings.

That's sort of focusing on the transgender aspect though, I'm more curious about how tomboys would be considered today. Are they now "gender fluid" or something? Do tomboys still exist, does the notion even still exist now? I suppose that's how I'd sum up what this topic is about for me, in my curiosity.

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Re: Tomboys and transgenderism

#15

Post by Deepfake » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:35 am

Yes it's true, I agree that introducing the concept of gender itself to children may be a dangerous practice.
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Re: Tomboys and transgenderism

#16

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:23 pm

Deepfake wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:35 am
Yes it's true, I agree that introducing the concept of gender itself to children may be a dangerous practice.
The traditional concept of gender is different from what is beginning to be taught today, you and I both know that, we just disagree on which is right. These discussions don't need to be inherently hostile, you know. I think this Twitter age is making people recede into echo chambers, to the point that an innocuous topic of an inquisitive nature is met with, at best, curt input and sarcasm. I know it's a sensitive subject, though.

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Re: Tomboys and transgenderism

#17

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:41 am

I don't think this deserves its own topic as it's too closely related to this subject, I think, so I'll put it here:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... twork.html
Hundreds of transgender youths who had gender reassignment surgery wish they hadn't and want to transition back, says trans rights champion

'Hundreds' of transgender people who have transitioned want to un-do their surgery, a campaigner who decided to stop identifying as male has revealed.

Charlie Evans, 28, from Newcastle, was born female but identified as male for almost ten years before deciding to identify as a woman again.

'Hundreds' of people have contacted her, including 30 in Newcastle alone, asking for guidance around detransitioning - the process of becoming the gender they were born - after she went public with her decision last year, she told Sky News.

'I'm in communication with 19 and 20-year-olds who have had full gender reassignment surgery who wish they hadn't, and their dysphoria hasn't been relieved, they don't feel better for it,' Ms Evans said.

The people who get in contact with her are usually in their 20s, 'mostly same-sex attracted' and often autistic, she added.

One 21-year-old woman, who identified as male from the age of 13, reached out to Ms Evans because transitioning did not help her gender dysphoria.

The woman, who did not want to be identified, said: 'There is a system of saying, "okay here's your hormones, here's your surgery, off you go". I don't think that's helpful for anyone'.

The anonymous woman was due to have her breast removal surgery this summer but started having doubts in May before deciding to stop taking hormones and cancel the procedure.

Ms Evans is now setting up The Detransition Advocacy Network to help people who feel the same way she did.

The science journalist has previously tweeted: 'We know that there is no such thing as a boy brain or a girl brain or that you can be born with the wrong one.

'We know hormone blockers are unsafe because we need testosterone and oestrogen for development.

'We need to #BeBrave, and stand together.'

Data is not currently collected showing how many transgender people come to regret their decision but the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust - which offers gender identity services for children as young as three - says it is 'rarely seen'.

In a statement, a trust spokesperson said: 'Decisions about physical interventions made in our care are arrived at after a thorough exploration process.

'While some of our patients may decide not to pursue physical treatment or drop out of treatment, the experience of regret described here is rarely seen.'

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Not so sure about the brain claim, I seem to recall there being some significant differences between male and female brains. Regardless, this is something a lot of conservatives saw coming. There's a lot of a push for these treatments, and kids and confused people can get caught up in it. I think there's some overlap here with the earlier topic, but this is something some people seem to want to sweep under the rug. A significant amount of people don't seem to be okay here. A bit tangential perhaps, but the culture itself may be partially responsible; looking at Desmond is Amazing, a child stripping for gay men in a gay club for money. I don't think that's a healthy or safe environment or behavior, yet mainstream media praises him and anyone raising an eyebrow is branded a homophobe.

Anyway, maybe some of those people with regrets were just gay or tomboys or unsure, but were still allowed or even encouraged to make changes that weren't right, at least for them. It's all something worth considering, I think. I'm curious what you guys think of these "detransitioning" people and what it might mean.

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Re: Tomboys and transgenderism

#18

Post by I am nobody » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:09 am

Just popping in to say (for the first time in a long while) that The Daily Mail is the British equivalent of The National Enquirer and isn't a good source. Obviously something something broken clocks and that doesn't mean they aren't right sometimes, but someone more reliable will have reported it if they are.

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Re: Tomboys and transgenderism

#19

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:45 am

I am nobody wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:09 am
Just popping in to say (for the first time in a long while) that The Daily Mail is the British equivalent of The National Enquirer and isn't a good source. Obviously something something broken clocks and that doesn't mean they aren't right sometimes, but someone more reliable will have reported it if they are.
It's probably still a more reliable source than CNN. At any rate, I believe The Daily Wire, Sky News, and The Blaze have reported this as well, and at a cursory glance they seem to be decently respected.

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Re: Tomboys and transgenderism

#20

Post by RinkuTheFirst » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:08 pm

I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:45 am
It's probably still a more reliable source than CNN.
Statements like this make it difficult to take anything you say seriously.

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