Real natives give their opinion on Halloween "indian" costumes.

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Post by Kil'jaeden » Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:52 am

It is Halloween, not some political statement. The vast majority of people in this country are ignorant of Native American culture mostly because they don't care. I think it is better that way, because those are Native American traditions, and other people have their own traditions. They don't need or want outsiders interfering and messing up their traditions. Halloween is a European derived tradition. We decorate our houses and yards. People dress up in scary, silly, scandalous, and shocking costumes. Children go door to door for candy and some adults have parties and get drunk. That's just our cultural tradition.

It is also a stretch to say that Halloween costumes are going to erase Native American culture. Most people are probably aware that their Halloween costume is not historically accurate, and that Native Americans are not out there following herds of buffalo anymore. If anything is going to erase Native American culture, it is people leaving the majority Native American counties to live elsewhere(often due to poverty) and the general trend of mass media, public education, and popular culture destroying and absorbing tradition.

[QUOTE="Hell Orb, post: 1570113, member: 25415"]Learn to separate the legends from the facts, man. We use the same word to refer to two different concepts. I'm sure all those Vikings alive today are really up in arms over how this affects them socially. By the way, here's a hint: If there were, it would probably still be offensive, so thanks for looking up another fine example of uh huh yeah that's my point.[/QUOTE]

The "vikings", or more properly, descendants of Nothern Germanic people(Norse) are around today. Did you think they had all died or something? The people in Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Greenland, and Iceland are these people. Many people in England, Scotland, Ireland, Russia, and even France will have partial descent from them. We have quite a few of these people in some northern states like Minnesota. They founded many cities like Dublin, Moscow, and Kiev. The main difference is that they generally play up the viking imagery these days because it is just cool. I doubt anyone cares if you dress up like one.

[QUOTE="Hell Orb, post: 1570113, member: 25415"]You may find this strange, but those notions are actually not connected - Redneck is a noun. It's a mode of behavior. A footnote for a socially ignorant caste in a larger culture.[/QUOTE]

Now imagine what would happen if anyone said that of any other group.

[QUOTE="Tarantula Ten, post: 1570406, member: 19345"]...Do they? I usually see them being "one with nature and the universe" and always talking to the generic spirits. It wasn't always the case, I know that. Older cartoons and movies did depict them as sneaky hateful people that want you dead. But, do they still do that in modern media?[/QUOTE]

I don't know about that. If I were out on the plains and encountered a Commanche party back in the 19th century, I would be fairly certain that they would kill everyone in my group and defile the corpses, if they did not decide to enslave everyone. On the other hand, groups like the Cherokee, who were not hostile and actually took their case to the US Supreme Court, were treated very unfairly regardless of their rights to their land and winning their case.

It seems that we have gone from one extreme: mere brutes and savages, to the other: a bunch of new agey nature worshipping hippies palatable to modern sensibilities. Many tribes practiced slavery, human sacrifice, and constant small scale warfare against their neighbors. On the other hand, they were known to display generosity and honor as well.

[QUOTE="I REALLY HATE PUMPKINS!, post: 1570052, member: 18119"]I find it funny, by the way, that people who are for women dressing any way they want without shame and are for trans clothing (like men dressing as women) would be for dictating what people can wear in other cases.[/QUOTE]

Transculturism. Why not? One can be a Native American inwardly without actually being one otherwise.

[QUOTE="Skeleton in my Body, post: 1570421, member: 34539"]Also, I think part of what the guy in Loot's video is saying is that if you ask most people in the US to draw an Native American, they're gonna draw someone dressed like he is, probably in the woods with a bow or hunting buffalo. They're rarely being depicted as being a real part of modern society, which is not a problem any other demographic in this country has. Costumes of traditional dress are only going to reinforce that, even if unintentionally. There's plenty reason to be offended by that view continuing to exist and to ask people to stop doing things that reinforce it.[/QUOTE]

Put him in front of a casino instead.[DOUBLEPOST=1446292373,1446291919][/DOUBLEPOST][QUOTE="Hell Orb, post: 1569972, member: 25415"]It's not a question as to whether indiginous Americans should be offended by there being occasional cartoons of their heritage, the problem begins with there only being that interpretation. There are a massive plethora of cultures that fall under the banner of 'Native American' and they do not actually all share the same qualities. You may as well put together some buck teeth, a kimono, and yellow paint and call it an "Oriental" costume.[/QUOTE]

Well, I guess you could go with a "modern Native American" costume and be a... person in modern clothes?
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Post by Bomby » Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:21 am

That costume doesn't look like it's from India though.

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Post by Random User » Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:41 am

[QUOTE="Kil'jaeden, post: 1570425, member: 26719"]We have quite a few of these people in some northern states like Minnesota.[/QUOTE]
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Post by New! Tazy Ten » Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:04 pm

[QUOTE="Skeleton in my Body, post: 1570421, member: 34539"]Always being an insert for elves isn't really positive portrayal, either. I think most groups would rather we usually see them as rounded characters instead of one-dimensional tropes.

Also, I think part of what the guy in Loot's video is saying is that if you ask most people in the US to draw an Native American, they're gonna draw someone dressed like he is, probably in the woods with a bow or hunting buffalo. They're rarely being depicted as being a real part of modern society, which is not a problem any other demographic in this country has. Costumes of traditional dress are only going to reinforce that, even if unintentionally. There's plenty reason to be offended by that view continuing to exist and to ask people to stop doing things that reinforce it.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, Native Americans don't really have a lot else going for them in the "representation department". If you want to change that then someone needs to make a Native American character that defies these ideas and still manages to be well-rounded. I don't think shaming part of your history is the right decision especially when there's nothing really wrong with it.

[QUOTE="Kil'jaeden, post: 1570425, member: 26719"]
I don't know about that. If I were out on the plains and encountered a Commanche party back in the 19th century, I would be fairly certain that they would kill everyone in my group and defile the corpses, if they did not decide to enslave everyone. On the other hand, groups like the Cherokee, who were not hostile and actually took their case to the US Supreme Court, were treated very unfairly regardless of their rights to their land and winning their case.

It seems that we have gone from one extreme: mere brutes and savages, to the other: a bunch of new agey nature worshipping hippies palatable to modern sensibilities. Many tribes practiced slavery, human sacrifice, and constant small scale warfare against their neighbors. On the other hand, they were known to display generosity and honor as well.[/QUOTE]

Well, I know certain Native American tribes were complete dicks at the time. There's always a little truth to even the most insane beliefs. Everyone has their jerks and I'm sure there's a Native American that perfectly fits the "new agey worshipping hippy" archetype. It's part of why I think clichés and tropes aren't necessarily bad because they are somewhat based in reality. To try and eliminate certain ones entirely does nothing at best and is baseline denial at worst.

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Post by United Nations » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:59 pm

[QUOTE="Tarantula Ten, post: 1570704, member: 19345"]Well, I know certain Native American tribes were complete dicks at the time. There's always a little truth to even the most insane beliefs. Everyone has their jerks and I'm sure there's a Native American that perfectly fits the "new agey worshipping hippy" archetype. It's part of why I think clichés and tropes aren't necessarily bad because they are somewhat based in reality. To try and eliminate certain ones entirely does nothing at best and is baseline denial at worst.[/QUOTE]

You're saying stereotypes are okay. They're not. It's not okay to assume anyone is a certain way based on their race. It doesn't matter if there were ever "jerks" in their past. It's not okay to assume that everyone of that race is a jerk and treat them as such. Even if some Native Americans may fit the stereotype, it's still not okay. Any time you generalize a race, including by dressing like them, it's pre-judging them (aka prejudice).

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Post by I am nobody » Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:11 pm

[QUOTE="Tarantula Ten, post: 1570704, member: 19345"]Unfortunately, Native Americans don't really have a lot else going for them in the "representation department". If you want to change that then someone needs to make a Native American character that defies these ideas and still manages to be well-rounded. I don't think shaming part of your history is the right decision especially when there's nothing really wrong with it.
[/QUOTE]

Overwhelmingly poor minorities don't change popular media with market power. Sometimes all you can do is complain until people - who may well have had no ill intent - recognize they've been treating you like a living fossil. The fact that centuries-old government polices have assured that very few of us ever interact with tribe members isn't helping - people don't have much to go on besides casinos, movie stereotypes, and the odd documentary or protest.

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Post by Kil'jaeden » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:52 pm

[QUOTE="Skeleton in my Body, post: 1570740, member: 34539"]The fact that centuries-old government polices have assured that very few of us ever interact with tribe members isn't helping - people don't have much to go on besides casinos, movie stereotypes, and the odd documentary or protest.[/QUOTE]

If they dispersed and mixed too much with everyone else, their lineage and culture would disappear.

[QUOTE="UNdead, post: 1570735, member: 31164"] Even if some Native Americans may fit the stereotype, it's still not okay. Any time you generalize a race, including by dressing like them, it's pre-judging them (aka prejudice).[/QUOTE]

Does that mean that non white people have to give up all costumes derived from European culture in any way? That is a lot of costumes.
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Post by е и ժ е я » Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:09 pm

Just posting in this thread to let you guys know I really don't care what you have to say on the subject so I'm not going to bother continuing to read your absurd counter-points if you think you have any right to disagree. Aboriginal Americans have had their property and rights as a people stolen from them continuously since europeans arrived on the continent, it is the basis of the entire nation, pull your heads out. Racism is not just for funsies. I hope you enjoy being the subject of derision, because that's what you're supporting. Don't bother quoting my post unless you feel like having your response deleted, cheers.
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Post by Kil'jaeden » Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:21 pm

You don't seem to bother reading responses anyway. You are just showing your typical attitude. Must be nice to threaten people with your moderator powers. It is also a base and cowardly thing to do. There is outright moderation bias here.
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Post by I am nobody » Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:49 pm

Kil'jaeden, post: 1570770, member: 26719 wrote:If they dispersed and mixed too much with everyone else, their lineage and culture would disappear.
It's kinda one or the other on that front. Isolationism breeds stereotyping, and intermingling dilutes cultures. I personally don't see cultural blending as a bad thing, but if there's anyone out there actually using that as an argument to stay separate, they have to realize that you can't be alone and understood.
Does that mean that non white people have to give up all costumes derived from European culture in any way? That is a lot of costumes.
The reverse of this has been confusing to me. Ninja costumes and Disney princesses - both of which horribly misrepresent what their historical equivalents actually looked like - are a-okay for most people, but a reasonably accurate geisha is one of the textbook examples of an offensive costume. Meanwhile, it's still okay for everyone to suddenly be Irish on Saint Patrick's Day and pretend Guinness is the beginning and end of Irish culture. Or inject token Spanish into everything and get wasted on Cinco de Mayo.

I get there's an assumption that people are going to get drunk and make a mockery of whatever tradition they're mimicking, but we could do with a lot more consistency in deciding what is and isn't offensive.
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I can't speak for AI, but this topic is several orders of magnitude short of having anything I'd even edit, let alone delete.

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Post by е и ժ е я » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:06 am

I am not suggesting I would delete someone's posts for disagreeing with me. I am short on patience for receiving notifications every time someone tries to respond to every sentence individually whenever I make a larger post. It is both an irritating format to read and to respond to, and it encourages inappropriate debate methods and I won't participate in it any longer.

I find the discussion in this thread entirely presumptuous, and especially upsetting considering how any of my Native American family members would feel, were they to see it. Maybe for someone else this conversation is 'Just for fun' yet to any of the first people, it is their livelihood that is affected. I have no ability to discuss this matter without addressing that, and as such I am also completely uninterested in making this a personal issue. You think I am biased? You have no idea how biased I could be.

I will gladly delete any more posts which make presumptive statements about how cowardly I am for both having opinions and also having a delete button. If you want to have a say on how I use it, whether I have it or mention it, either run for moderator or report me.
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Post by ScottyMcGee » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:12 am

[QUOTE="Kil'jaeden, post: 1570770, member: 26719"]If they dispersed and mixed too much with everyone else, their lineage and culture would disappear.
[/QUOTE]
BUT WITH ANCESTRY.COM ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE Discover your family history and start your family tree!


I wanted to seriously get in on this but, especially after having dragged vikings into this, the conversation has reached ludicrous-speed levels.
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Post by Kil'jaeden » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:15 am

[QUOTE="Skeleton in my Body, post: 1570786, member: 34539"]It's kinda one or the other on that front. Isolationism breeds stereotyping, and intermingling dilutes cultures. I personally don't see cultural blending as a bad thing, but if there's anyone out there actually using that as an argument to stay separate, they have to realize that you can't be alone and understood.[/QUOTE]

Cultural blending typically means the extinction of the smaller culture. This has been true all throughout history regardless of the time and place; look at the earliest known case of that happened with the Sumerian culture being completely displaced over time by Akkadian culture. Anyone that cared about Native American tribes would not want this. Though honestly, most of them are part of mainstream American culture now. They have some slight differences, but public education and mass media are making most groups more similar to eachother over time. Tradition is not important to most people anymore.

[QUOTE="Skeleton in my Body, post: 1570786, member: 34539"]The reverse of this has been confusing to me. Ninja costumes and Disney princesses - both of which horribly misrepresent what their historical equivalents actually looked like - are a-okay for most people, but a reasonably accurate geisha is one of the textbook examples of an offensive costume. Meanwhile, it's still okay for everyone to suddenly be Irish on Saint Patrick's Day and pretend Guinness is the beginning and end of Irish culture. Or inject token Spanish into everything and get wasted on Cinco de Mayo.[/QUOTE]

Double standards are part and parcel with this whole mentality. If it were taken to the logical extreme, no one would be in costumes. Everything would have to be safe and approved. It would be boring. It is not a political statement, it is a holiday. Get drunk or eat some candy. And do the Irish have a culture outside of drinking?


I have Native American family members on both sides of the family. My maternal grandfather's entire family is brown skinned, brown eyed, and dark haired(but mixed with some European descent). One of my sisters even inherited the look from that side of the family, though the rest of us did not. My paternal great grandfather was a Native American farmer in the Midwest married to a white woman. My uncle has some old pictures of him dressed like a stereotypical farmer 100 years ago. My maternal great grandmother was the child of a Native American mother and a white father, and she had the look of a Native. If I just hated Native Americans and wanted to make them suffer with stereotyped Halloween costumes, I would have to hate my own lineage. Granted, my ancestors on that end were from Eastern agricultural tribes and more or less assimilated with and intermarried with the Europeans.
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Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:18 am

^^ What do you have against vikings?

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Post by New! Tazy Ten » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:55 am

[QUOTE="UNdead, post: 1570735, member: 31164"]You're saying stereotypes are okay. They're not. It's not okay to assume anyone is a certain way based on their race. It doesn't matter if there were ever "jerks" in their past. It's not okay to assume that everyone of that race is a jerk and treat them as such. Even if some Native Americans may fit the stereotype, it's still not okay. Any time you generalize a race, including by dressing like them, it's pre-judging them (aka prejudice).[/QUOTE]

I think you've missed my point. Either that or you are willfully ignoring the truth of the matter because stereotypes are always will be 100% okay on their own. As an example, Punch Out on the Wii used stereotypes of all cultures and at no point is it offensive or insulting. The Canadian man gets drunk off syrup and wrestles bears, the Indian wears tiger striped pants and floats on a magic carpet before teleporting around the ring, the French guy is weak, has the most laughable record in boxing history and shouts "VIVA LA FRANCE" during the fight. Stereotypes are a springboard that can lead to characters, ideas, and forms of media for everyone to enjoy. They are not the ball and chain that you assume them to be, especially when it's not necessarily wrong. News flash, Native Americans dressed in a certain way at one point. It's not faked, or made to be a joke, it's accurate, and we know it's accurate. Also it's still worn during ceremonies. Maybe not the shirtless variety, but still.

Image
So, why's it offensive if it's true? Because non-native Americans are the one's wearing it? Is that really all there is to that argument? That it's sacred? Well, I say that true prejudice starts when something is off-limits because of someone's skin color.


[QUOTE="I am nobody, post: 1570740, member: 34539"]Overwhelmingly poor minorities don't change popular media with market power. Sometimes all you can do is complain until people - who may well have had no ill intent - recognize they've been treating you like a living fossil. The fact that centuries-old government polices have assured that very few of us ever interact with tribe members isn't helping - people don't have much to go on besides casinos, movie stereotypes, and the odd documentary or protest.[/QUOTE]

If they know nothing about a topic or subject then they shouldn't make anything related to that topic or subject. Hear me out. Ubisoft had done boatloads of research before making Connor Kenway, even going so far as to give him a tribe name, then not copyrighting said name at the request of the people helping them. Thunder's more recent appearance grounds him into reality. Is he something of a stereotype? Absolutely, but instead of scrapping the character, Double Helix expanded his story, changed him to fit with said story and even removed his "Chief" title as he is not a chief anymore. It's still stereotypical in almost every aspect, but it's not offensive because it handles the subject manner accurately.

I also add that you don't need to be rich to create. I'm not so stupid as to say that you'll change hearts and minds with a single piece of media, but I feel it does a better job in the long run than complaining does which nine time out of ten just gets people to hate you.

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Post by LOOT » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:13 am

lmbo you take one photograph and say all native americans fit that stereotype do you even know what tribe they're representing or the fact there were dozens of tribes across the Americas before white losers came to desecrate the continent[DOUBLEPOST=1446538391,1446538181][/DOUBLEPOST]my name is Tazy and I believe because a video game had a positive stereotype of a unnecessary melting pot of cultures they should be okay with a mockery of their ancestry and past through costumes on a holiday meant to dress in a joking kind of way

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Post by Kil'jaeden » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:26 am

^They were lucky that the Chinese did not make it to the New World first. Or the Turks. As it was, the Native Americans were perfectly content to kill eachother and take over territories before the white devil came in. I don't know what that has to do with a costume though.

^^If the costume were too accurate instead of a recognizable stereotype, it would be called cultural appropriation. Why do people rail against stereotypes so much? In denying them completely, it damages the idea of any group identity. Group identity and perception of said identity gives rise to stereotypes for good and ill. Acting is if all stereotypes must always be negative and completely false makes it hard to say things like "culture" when complaining. You just get a set of individuals that you have to process one at a time with no common thread between them without having some general framework. People clearly have group identity and commonalities within groups.

For example, in the article, one man complained about the stone axe that came with the Indian Brave costume. Wouldn't one expect a warrior to carry a weapon? The wood and stone hatchet is an accurate weapon given the Stone Age tools of the Native Americans. Saying that it connotates "savage" is practially that man insulting his own. They did use such weapons, they had wars, so what is his problem? Same with wearing feathers; some did do that, so what is the problem?

Another example I can attest is from meeting Japanese exchange students every year in middle and high school. Most of them seemed to think that America is Texas(with cowboys hats, lots of guns, and horses) or New York(big cosmopolitan city). The stereotypes are not completely false(lots of horses and guns here), but not what most expected. I guess the Midwest was not on their radar.


I saw an article on offensive costumes that no one should wear that included Aztec and Mayan themed costumes. The author went on about how the costumes were somehow offensive to Mexicans(?) and that they insulted the great civilizations of those people. All I could think about was how the Aztecs ripped peoples' hearts out(for Huitzilopolochtli), skinned virgins alive(for Xipe Totec), and drowned crying children(as sacrifices to Tlaloc). Which of those the author prefers, they did not say.
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Post by I am nobody » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:08 am

[QUOTE="Kil'jaeden, post: 1570820, member: 26719"]Cultural blending typically means the extinction of the smaller culture. This has been true all throughout history regardless of the time and place; look at the earliest known case of that happened with the Sumerian culture being completely displaced over time by Akkadian culture. Anyone that cared about Native American tribes would not want this. Though honestly, most of them are part of mainstream American culture now. They have some slight differences, but public education and mass media are making most groups more similar to eachother over time. Tradition is not important to most people anymore.
[/QUOTE]

Ideally, it wouldn't be a switch between fully integrated and fully separated, but the 19th and 20th century policies I mentioned earlier assured most tribes are in the middle of nowhere and would have difficulty interacting with a decent percentage of other Americans while staying together. That's what I was getting at before.

[QUOTE="Tazy Ten, post: 1571042, member: 19345"]
If they know nothing about a topic or subject then they shouldn't make anything related to that topic or subject. Hear me out. Ubisoft had done boatloads of research before making Connor Kenway, even going so far as to give him a tribe name, then not copyrighting said name at the request of the people helping them. Thunder's more recent appearance grounds him into reality. Is he something of a stereotype? Absolutely, but instead of scrapping the character, Double Helix expanded his story, changed him to fit with said story and even removed his "Chief" title as he is not a chief anymore. It's still stereotypical in almost every aspect, but it's not offensive because it handles the subject manner accurately.

I also add that you don't need to be rich to create. I'm not so stupid as to say that you'll change hearts and minds with a single piece of media, but I feel it does a better job in the long run than complaining does which nine time out of ten just gets people to hate you.[/QUOTE]

You're technically correct on the last point, but you realistically need money. Self-published books and school-budget movies aren't going to accomplish anything, especially not while books, movies, and games with marketing power behind them are promoting exactly the opposite. Complaining gets a few creators to change their mind, (Thunder) and that's eventually going to change perceptions even if you annoy some consumers along the way.

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Post by Marilink » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:28 am

Guys, I'm gonna simplify this.

1. Native Americans have spoken out against Indian costumes, saying they are offensive.
2. We have sympathy for their plight and, out of respect for individuals, agree.


They are people that are offended. They're not a faceless mob, they are persons that have real feelings. They are not a stereotype, they are alive.

Even if you're not religious, there's something to be learned from the Apostle Paul here.
1 Corinthians 9:19-23 - Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

Earlier in the same letter, Paul says that if eating meat would offend one of his brothers and cause him to reject the gospel, that he would stop eating meat altogether if it would save that guy.

I know this isn't about the gospel, but obviously the principles apply. Treat people as individuals. Live your life with respect for others. Listen to the concerns of those in difficult positions. Love one another.
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Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:26 pm

Tazy Ten]So wrote:
Good point.
LOOT, post: 1571076, member: 21459 wrote:lmbo you take one photograph and say all native americans fit that stereotype do you even know what tribe they're representing or the fact there were dozens of tribes across the Americas before white losers came to desecrate the continent
Who cares if the specific tribe is known? It doesn't change anything. And I'm pretty sure saying something like that about any other group would be considered bad. How does "black losers" or "gay losers" sound to you?

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