National Dunce Day Discussion Thread

Moderators: I am nobody, Deku Tree

Post Reply
User avatar
Shane
Administrator
Posts: 141007
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 1999 11:42 pm
Location: St. Upidtown
Contact:

Post by Shane » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:33 pm

[MEDIA=youtube]eHXGwitfixI[/MEDIA]
Competition is a good thing. It's a chance to crush people.

User avatar
I am nobody
Moderator
Posts: 12540
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:26 pm
Location: -89.97814998,-42.2333493

Post by I am nobody » Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:13 pm

I don't anything in that video that's inconsistent with the investigation - he chastised Trump for attacking the integrity of American institutions, for suggesting the result would be questioned, for believing that it was even feasible to rig a US election, and for making claims without evidence. By contrast, the investigation is based on evidence we've all known about for months and that is supported by experts, is acting to establish whether there is reason to doubt the integrity of any part of the system, does not claim the election was actually rigged, and, to my knowledge, does not call for any change to the results. A hostile foreign power acting to influence the results of our election is also just about the definition of a national security issue, so it'd be a dereliction of duty for either the president or the CIA to ignore any evidence showing it might have happened.

That said, if you're posting that to contrast with the people supporting the PA/MI/WI recounts with the hope of overturning the results, fair enough. With exception of the point about Trump's claims coming before any votes were cast, those campaigns are almost exactly what Obama was talking about.

User avatar
X-3
Moderator
Posts: 23206
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 2:00 am
Location: noiɈɒɔo⅃

Post by X-3 » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:11 pm

The Right was claiming that the state put their hands in the cookie jar. The CIA is claiming that outside influences nudged the cookie jar. The latter isn't illegal to do unless there's direct collusion...which there probably isn't. This also means the results of the election won't change.

Common sense dictates that Russia didn't hack the results. Not because they couldn't, but because they didn't need to and eyes were on them. If you've already nudged the cookie jar and everyone saw you do it, stuffing your hand in it is a dumb move.

User avatar
Auron
Posts: 7668
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Dead Inside

Post by Auron » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:11 pm

Whatever Russia's involvement, they pretty much got what they wanted. They can only be sitting back and smiling as this country divides itself further and further in two.

User avatar
Shane
Administrator
Posts: 141007
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 1999 11:42 pm
Location: St. Upidtown
Contact:

Post by Shane » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:39 pm

The election results were impeccable and needed to be accepted by all. Until Trump won.

The recounts are just one big scam. Such a process is designed to yield a few or a few hundred votes. Making up a gap this large is delusional at best.

I imagine Russia got the result they wanted, whether they attempted to do anything or not. They don't want to go to war either. It's plausible that they had some involvement in the Wikileaks or Podesta e-mails, which are only as damning as what the person writing them writes. Don't want people to know you are trying to rig the election against Bernie? Don't write it. Did this really impact his election chances, and does he get a do over?
Competition is a good thing. It's a chance to crush people.

User avatar
Auron
Posts: 7668
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2001 1:00 am
Location: Dead Inside

Post by Auron » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:04 pm

Shane, post: 1615747, member: 1 wrote:The election results were impeccable and needed to be accepted by all. Until Trump won.
The election results were rigged and the whole system is a sham. Until Trump won.
The recounts are just one big scam. Such a process is designed to yield a few or a few hundred votes. Making up a gap this large is delusional at best.
This all seemed more like a play by Jill Stein and the Green Party to bring in more money and public exposure. All of that money that they raised to pay for the recount? Guess who keeps it after the recount was canceled. I don't think anyone should have reasonable expected anything else to come out of it.
I imagine Russia got the result they wanted, whether they attempted to do anything or not. They don't want to go to war either. It's plausible that they had some involvement in the Wikileaks or Podesta e-mails, which are only as damning as what the person writing them writes.
There are reports out there, whether they are to be believed or not, that there was evidence that both the DNC and RNC were hacked. If that is true, it seems a little odd that only the DNC's information was ever leaked out.

And unfortunately, those emails are more damning than what the person writing them wrote when people get a hold of them and turn them into fantastical conspiracy theories that have real world consequences. What's going to stop the next person from actually killing people next time?

User avatar
I am nobody
Moderator
Posts: 12540
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:26 pm
Location: -89.97814998,-42.2333493

Post by I am nobody » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:29 pm

Auron, post: 1615748, member: 28318 wrote: There are reports out there, whether they are to be believed or not, that there was evidence that both the DNC and RNC were hacked. If that is true, it seems a little odd that only the DNC's information was ever leaked out.
Specifically:
Republican Senator John McCain, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said in a joint statement on Sunday with top Democrats that the CIA's report "should alarm every American".

He said in an interview that the congressional investigation should be more thorough than the one ordered by the White House.

...

But on Friday, the intelligence community went further when US media reports said the CIA had "high confidence" that Russians were trying to influence the election in Mr Trump's favour.

Russians had hacked the Republican party but chose not to reveal the contents of what they found, the reports said.

User avatar
X-3
Moderator
Posts: 23206
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 2:00 am
Location: noiɈɒɔo⅃

Post by X-3 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:44 pm

The big philosophical question in all of this is what to do about sheer information overload.

User avatar
spooky scary bearatons
Posts: 6995
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:35 pm
Location: Wales
Contact:

Post by spooky scary bearatons » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:44 pm

To be honest, its a bit absurd to believe that Russia did hack the DNC entirely because there is already enough of a modern day "red scare," it's nonsensical to think that with all this anti-russian rhetoric that's been mulling around these last few years that they'd do something like this considering the risk involved, let alone get CAUGHT doing this. I think the bigger possibility here is the DNC hack likely came from someone within who supported Sanders, or at the least felt it was information worth sharing. But at the same time, I do have some questions about the whole thing. A lot doesn't add up, and its worth investigating, even if the logic in my head adds up to them not hacking.

2016 is **** whack.
"whether you have or have no wealth, the system might fail you, but don't fail yourself" -
GET BETTER - dan le sac Vs Scroobius Pip

User avatar
I am nobody
Moderator
Posts: 12540
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:26 pm
Location: -89.97814998,-42.2333493

Post by I am nobody » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:04 pm

^Eh, Russian media is very quick to accuse the US and the West in general of being responsible for any kind of activism against Putin. If the state believes any of that, it's not inconceivable that they'd authorize this kind of hack - no one is going to war over leaked emails, and it sends a "back off" message they're no longer capable of sending through conventional military power. Alternatively, they could bet (most likely correctly) that the repercussions for being caught wouldn't be worse than the current sanctions, and that Trump is both more likely to lift them and more likely to brush off hacking that benefited him. Either version is a bigger risk that anything they've done recently, but I don't think they're inconceivable. China's cyberattacks were a lot worse than leaking emails when they were still sponsoring them, and that got resolved with a very public "we know who you are" to their hackers rather than a war.

That said, it seems notable to me that the report I linked repeatedly says "Russian hackers" rather than "Russia", which leaves open the most believable scenario to me: The state's propaganda machine worked a little too well on some of their many independent hacking groups, who then patriotically hacked both parties and released what they saw as beneficial to Russia.

The effect wasn't serious enough to throw the legitimacy of the election into question, but organizations directly affiliated with the highest levels of government shouldn't be getting hacked by anyone. This election is over and decided, and this should not be a partisan issue.

User avatar
Shane
Administrator
Posts: 141007
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 1999 11:42 pm
Location: St. Upidtown
Contact:

Post by Shane » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:42 am

Trump is still taking issue with the system. It just so happened that the system worked for him, in spite of that. He probably would not have accepted the results if he lost, and people would have dismissed him as crazy.

The Dems used to love Wikileaks. Then Wikileaks started leaking things that would harm them.

If we're that concerned about how insecure our information is, there was a former Secretary of State who used an unsecured private e-mail server that was probably hacked by multiple countries to investigate. It is unlikely anything will come of that, no matter how tough Trump talked on the campaign trail.

I saw a former CIA man on one of those fake news networks calling for us to have a new election. Keep doing it until you get the result you like.
Competition is a good thing. It's a chance to crush people.

User avatar
I am nobody
Moderator
Posts: 12540
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:26 pm
Location: -89.97814998,-42.2333493

Post by I am nobody » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:45 pm

[QUOTE="Shane, post: 1615825, member: 1"]
If we're that concerned about how insecure our information is, there was a former Secretary of State who used an unsecured private e-mail server that was probably hacked by multiple countries to investigate. It is unlikely anything will come of that, no matter how tough Trump talked on the campaign trail.
[/QUOTE]

There was, and there was also an FBI investigation into it, not to mention congressional hearings. Why should this be different?

User avatar
I REALLY HATE POKEMON!
Posts: 28106
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2000 1:00 am
Location: California, U.S.A

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:21 pm

^ And what came of it? Clinton was exposed and embarrassed by Gowdy but so what? She should be in jail and definitely barred from running for president. People made a bigger deal about Trump's petty comments and taxes than Clinton's long list of issues. But "what difference does it make now" I guess

User avatar
X-3
Moderator
Posts: 23206
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 2:00 am
Location: noiɈɒɔo⅃

Post by X-3 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:27 pm

[QUOTE="I REALLY HATE PRESENTS!, post: 1615858, member: 18119"]People made a bigger deal about Trump's petty comments and taxes than Clinton's long list of issues.[/QUOTE]

I want to live in your universe

User avatar
I REALLY HATE POKEMON!
Posts: 28106
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2000 1:00 am
Location: California, U.S.A

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:41 pm

[QUOTE="X-3, post: 1615859, member: 27765"]I want to live in your universe[/QUOTE]

The one painted by the media?

User avatar
I am nobody
Moderator
Posts: 12540
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:26 pm
Location: -89.97814998,-42.2333493

Post by I am nobody » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:47 pm

[QUOTE="I REALLY HATE PRESENTS!, post: 1615858, member: 18119"]^ And what came of it? Clinton was exposed and embarrassed by Gowdy but so what? She should be in jail and definitely barred from running for president. People made a bigger deal about Trump's petty comments and taxes than Clinton's long list of issues. But "what difference does it make now" I guess[/QUOTE]

Unless you're saying that we shouldn't perform any further investigations ever because one was mishandled in your eyes, this doesn't answer the question. Clinton's servers were suspected to be a national security risk, and months were spent thoroughly and publicly investigating everything to do with them and establishing exactly what that risk was. Why should we not do the same in this case?

Whether or not anyone was punished then is irrelevant, and whether or not anyone will be punished now is irrelevant. The point of both investigations is to determine what, if anything, is at risk, and the time to debate responsibilities and consequences is after we know what happened.

User avatar
Shane
Administrator
Posts: 141007
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 1999 11:42 pm
Location: St. Upidtown
Contact:

Post by Shane » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:03 pm

I'm not sure it's a done deal, but perhaps the investigation can never be fully completed since evidence was deliberately deleted. If there is a consequence we can point to, the loss of the election may be it. Otherwise, it really only served to raise the profiles of Chaffetz and Gowdy.
Competition is a good thing. It's a chance to crush people.

User avatar
I am nobody
Moderator
Posts: 12540
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:26 pm
Location: -89.97814998,-42.2333493

Post by I am nobody » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:47 pm

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38340115
Actors Martin Sheen and Debra Messing are joined by a host of other celebrities - including musician Moby - to ask Republican electors to not cast their vote for President-elect Donald Trump on 19 December.

The argument put forward in the Unite for America clip is simple - Mr Trump is not fit to be president of the United States, and therefore members of the Electoral College should block his entry to the White House.

"Our founding fathers built the Electoral College to safeguard the American people from the dangers of a demagogue and to ensure that the presidency only goes to someone who is, to an eminent degree, endowed with the requisite qualifications," Sheen explains in the video.
It's mildly amusing that they honestly think this is a possibility, but most incredibly disappointing that so many people's response to this is "a bad system functioned according to its design, but produced a result I don't like - better try and change that by making it even worse!" rather than "a bad system we all implicitly accepted by voting functioned according to its design - what do we need to do to make it a good system?"

User avatar
X-3
Moderator
Posts: 23206
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 2:00 am
Location: noiɈɒɔo⅃

Post by X-3 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:00 pm

If Republicans full-heartedly voted for Trump a month ago they're not going to turn around and say "well actually." As if they care what the EC is theoretically for.

User avatar
The Amazing Tazy Ten
Posts: 28953
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2000 1:00 am
Location: Just recently escaped Limbo
Contact:

Post by The Amazing Tazy Ten » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:39 pm

^^ The answer is not "give all the power to big cities" though. That's exactly why we made the Electoral College in the first place, so every state impacts the vote appropriately rather than whoever has the largest population.

The only thing I can think of is to get rid of the Electorate Voters part and leave it up to the people. I don't have the kind of knowledge to fix voting systems but I do know that the electoral college shouldn't be touched by people that think it's only fair when they win. Political party be damned.

Post Reply

Return to “Politics, Philosophy, and Religion”